cracker

Going back to the rally issue as a Christian myself I must admit that I find it depressing that the Christians speaking up there got so much opposition. I can't pretend to have looked into all that they were saying but I did not think it was too OTT - not like 'burn them at the stake, they're all sinners....etc' more 'as Christians we believe that the bible is where we get our rules from and from our reading of it, it says that homosexuality is wrong so we want to have the right to live by these beliefs' Not unreasonable IMO. They are not seeking to impose their beliefs on anyone else, just wanting the right to be able to live by their beliefs themselves Now you yourself may not be Christians and you may not believe that homosexuality is wrong, you may even be a Christian who is OK with homosexuality and you have every right to do so but equally there are people in the world (and as I said I am one of them) who are Christians who have a problem with homosexuality - and I believe there are many others who are not Christians who feel so too. What I can't stand are these Tatchell type people who seek to impose their beliefs on me. I do not impose my beliefs on him, why is he allowed to do so to me? It would be like if Everton wanted to hold their annual Christmas dinner at Anfield, surely LFC should be able to choose who they hire out their ground to - well similarly for Christians and church buildings!! Maybe I should further qualify what I am saying as I do not want to come over as some kind of 'gay basher' - I hate homophobic abuse (people who use gay as a term of abuse - very common these days), I believe as a Christian that you are supposed to love people and so I would never be anything other than pleasant to anyone I knew who was homosexual but it does not alter what i believe about it. The reality is with such people you would exist peaceably side by side and their life style is never discussed, it is none of my business. And I would not expect them to be abusive to me about my beliefs or life style - and they are not as I know several such people. It does bother me though as a Christian that so often when Christians speak out on something and demonstrate that it is these kind of issues which leads not unnaturally to others seeing the Christian faith as something which just wants to persecute and have a go at people. Woman priests/bishops, contraception, so called offensive programmes on TV like jerry springer, abortion are other things the church has strongly voiced views on. These are not my priorities. You see altho I have views about homosexuality and maybe even most of the list above personally I have far stronger views on lying cheating politicians with no integrity, the obsene economic injustices in the world whereby the poor get treated as less than human (I believe all people are equal and should be treated so whether they are American, Iraqi, Palestinian or living in a shanty town in South Africa) ), illegal wars which kill thousands of innocent people, newspaper editors who lie and do not apologise when they are shown to be wrong, the regimes in places like Burma where democracy is crushed and good people imprisoned and elsewhere and the rampant materialism in the western world today. Now thats what the church should really be shouting from the roof tops about as they were the types of things which Jesus the founder of the religion felt strongly about, but sadly it doesn't and so unsurpirsingly the general public has a dim view of the organised church. In a way I share their view. Sad.

When I heard he'd got MOTM that was my first thought - the only reason I can come up with is that the 3-0 (yes that is what it was) was in January and so it doesn't count.

The 3-6 IMO was nowhere near as bad as many are saying - truth is we were level and due to 2 appalling errors by Dudek and an offside goal suddenly in the space of just over 5 minutes we are 1-4 down - impossible to recover from really (altho we did have a go) and largely sad to say it was down to Dudek. If I was him I'd have kept quiet - all I can assume is that he was pressed by persistent reporters for a comment and this is what came out. In fairness the experiences in those 2 games must have been upsetting for him - he knows he was rubbish so does everyone - so why he starts trying to deflect blame goodness knows - but I suppose that is what human nature is like. Very few people in all walks of life will take the blame when they cock up.

David Beckham and all that surrounds him so annoys me I listen to breakfast on 5live as I wake up in the morning - God knows why as Nicky Campbell must be the most annoying person on the radio and he was heard to decribe Beckham as a 'beautiful person' today - whats that all about!!! - this was after the previous day making countless unfunny jokes at LFCs expense following the 3-6. Shelagh Fogarty his fellow presenter is supposed to be a LFC fan and yet she lets him get away with - I'd punch him. Now I hear Beckham is going to USA on God knows how much money and he says its not for the money - my God!! He says he wants to develop the team - LA Galaxy is it - do me a favour!! Then people talk about how media savvy he is - truth is that the lad is thick and totally shallow for Gods sake. And he isn't even particularly good at football. Not any more anyway and hasn't been for about 5 years. The circus which surrounds him and his wife is nothing short of disgusting and represents much of what is wrong about the game IMO - and yet he gets little or no criticism in the media worth talking about - either he must have a lot of mates working in it or they are all totally blind to the truth. Or a bit of both. Compare him and Dirk who gives all the proceeds from his merchandise sale to the Dirk Kuyt foundation which puts money into inner city Dutch towns and the needy in places like Nepal - then tell me who is the greater celeb. Rant over. I rest my case.

Have read his book in the last couple of days. I read a lot of footy books - esp LFC ones and yes there are aspects of the way he talks in it which bother me. Can't be bothered going into them here but a lot have been raised already. Howver none of us are perfect and so I think we should lay off the criticism a bit. Also I hate hate hate the media attitude which says that 'LFC are a 1 man team', 'Stevie G is the only good player we've got'.....etc. He does not write that though altho some may say his attitude is a bit of a contributor to it. I also felt that one of the main reasons for our poor form in the early part of this season was SGs play - a fact which neither him nor the media were very quick to acknowledge However for sure IMO he a) loves LFC b) is a fantastic player c) will never again threaten to leave d) knows and appreciates how us the fans feel about Hillsborough (I found the first few pages of the book on this topic the best part of the book in many ways) e) he hates the mancs like we do (I hope I am right on ©) and so we should all be on his side. He is one of us. I worry big style when I hear so much anti Stevie stuff on here as there is a risk that if it became too vocal he may change his mind and decide to go and nobody who is a true LFC fan could ever see that as a good thing ... altho of course Raddy might having read some of what he has written. BTW (sorry if this is old hat to many of you) but I heard a quiz question the other day which is a good one for LFC fans to use - which player has scored in the Carling Cup, FA Cup, EUFA Cup and Champions League finals? - no prizes for the answer!! From memory I could not think of anyone else who had even scored in 3 of them never mind all 4. Yeah we have to admit that as a player Stevie is a legend and we are lucky to have him.

You said EHD was one of the top 5 players in the league - someone questioned it and you say dear oh dear!! - well I am sorry mate but no way on this earth is EHD one of the top 5 players in the league. He isn't even one of the top 5 players at Bolton. What I will grant him is that he is playing a bit better than his last season at Anfield when he achieved the outstanding feat of being the first number 9 ever on the books of Liverpool football club to go a whole season and not score a goal. I just see him as an overated prima donna who is inconsistent. Most of his goals are tap ins or deflected and many (most) times when he takes on players he fails to beat them - thats the truth. If Bolton had a better option he would not play but when you look at their bench today you can see how weak their squad is and why EHD always plays. And altho I am not his biggest fan for me I would defo prefer Pennant to him so whoever said EHD would improve opur team I totally disagree ..... altho I still feel that a further new signing to play wide right might be a good idea

Haven't even read that one as i skimmed through the thread - so i am not a red eh- Do one is all I can say!! I could say to you in reply that having a Man U supporting girlfriend makes you not a red as I certainly would never do that - But as i have a brain I won't say that. To be honest many of the Mancs I speak to prefer us to chelsea. I think Fergie too feels that and knows that us and them are the real 'top clubs' with all the London lot as temporary pretenders who won't last whereas we all know that for the next 50 years Liverpool and Man U are unlikely to ever finish out of the top 6 such is the class of both clubs.

Yeah mate whatever - I have probably forgotten more about football than you will ever know - I am a passionate red of course but I also visit other grounds and am proud to say that I have been to a match at every ground in the country - and I think in view of that achievement I am entitled to mark it in some way and the mugs was just a fun idea of doing that. Is that a problem for you? Or does that make my views wrong? All I am saying is that Man U as they are now in my opinion are far more acceptable to me than Chelsea - the only ones i have real problems over are Neville and Ronaldo on the field and Rio off it, even Fergie is mellowing (and yes I know all his history - I have read a 600 page book on it - The Boss by Micheal Crick) Chelsea on the other hand - my god - Kenyon, Terry, Cole x2, Mourinho, Drogba, Robben, Carvalho - I cannot say a good word about any of those 8 (and that's before you get onto their so called 'good guys' and their indiscretions on our players - Lampard on Alonso, Essien on Hamann and Ballack on Sissoko) - it would take me too long to list all their charatcter defects but take it from me if we ever started becoming like them it would cause Shankly to turn in his grave. We have been a top club for nigh on 50 years cos of a man with transparent integrity admired by all who knew him friend and foe alike and since then we have tried to retain those values even as football has so totally radically changed. In contrast Chelsea have in 3 short years become the most hated club in Europe - and you almost get the impression they are happy to be thought of that way. Winning the right way is important to me and I think it is important to the people who run our club judging by the way they talk about getting the right investor - in short I would not want to win if I had to do it the way Chelsea do. The other issue for me about Chelsea is I don't even think they're that good in the same way as us in the 80s and dare I say it Man U in the 90s. The number of times we (and other teams) have outplayed them and then got caught by a goal against the run of play - what I will say is that they are good when they are behind and often come back with a vengeance -eg semi final V us last year, V Spurs when they lost, V Man U when they were losing at half time, V Arsenal when they went behind ...etc. I wish we had that will to win. But please God do not let them win it 3 years running - there's only 1 team I know done that in my time following football and I support them. And yes I too have not given up on us for the PL yet - I think we are capable of catching at least one of them as we have had all our hardest games and are now running into form. But realisitically it is unlikely we will catch them both and given that, the team I least want to win it are Chelsea.

Well after my post which was basically saying I hate them both but at the present time I hate Chelski more as for me they stand for everything that is bad in football at all levels - and I have had stick for it - it seems there are a lot of CFC lovers on here. Well I am not one of them. And I stand totally by my original comments - it is just my opinion and it won't change. And to be fair to MUFC I feel the way the play the game at present is less obnoxious than CFC and so given a difficult choice as I said originally I prefer them but if I had to list the 92 clubs in the league in order of favourism they would be number 91 and 92. Also in general I will always support northern teams over southern teams. Don't anyone begin to label me as some kind of MUFC lover - people who know me laugh at how anti MUFC I am. My password at work and on here is an anti MUFC diatribe as is another password I use elsewhere. I also have a strange obsession - collecting football mugs and have one for all the teams in the league (as I have been to a match at every ground in the country) but the last one I got was the MUFC one as I would not spend my money on it and a manc had to buy it for me. Prior to this there was a gap between the Man City and Mansfield mugs (they are arranged alphabetically) and I had to explain to visitors to my house why. Yeah I know I am a saddo but I thought I'd tell you that tale as it tells you a bit about how I feel about Man U.

Well I must be unusual as I have to say that personally I would prefer Manure to win the PL than Chelski such is my ever increasing dislike of everything about CFC. Yes I do dislike Man U as well and yes they are my least favourite 2 teams in the league but at least Man U are a true big team (but not really as big as us as we are 'the most successful club in English football ever - by a mile'). They also do not try to cheat at every turn and have some humility when they lose. I definitely prefer MU 2006 style than the one with Keane Beckham Schmeichal and Cantona at their peak as those 4 were my most hated MU players altho Ronaldo and Gary Neville now are equally disliked and of course I have always hated Fergie but now it is 2 players not 4. Also whisper this but since they left OT my dislike of Schmeichal and Keane has lessened tho I still hate Eric and Becks. Whereas Chelski I hate them all -except maybe Petr Cech who was a mate of our Czechs and sent texts congratulating us on Istanbul and seems at least a reasonably nice peron unlike the rest of them - yesterday I do not think they shook hands with the officials or hardly any of the Everton players at the end so self obsessed and unsporting are they. Grrrr - I hate them!!!

I'm relatively new on here and so I do not want to get into a slanging match with a poster of over 1000 posts but honestly mate I thought what you said was wrong and still do ...and yes I did read what you wrote!!

I watched the reserves quite a lot last season at Wrexham and Guthrie was always the one who impressed me most (over Hamill, Anderson Antwi Roque Peltier .. - whoever!!) and so I am dead chuffed to see him get a good new deal. Must say tho that when he played in Istanbul I felt he was poor - if that is all you have seen of Danny Guthrie any fellow reds trust me he is far better that that. Seemed a bit in awe of the situation and lacking in confidence to try things which is the exact opposite of him when I have seen him playing for the ressies altho in fairness wide left where he was played in Istanbul is not exactly his best position. Anyway hopefully he will get further chances and in time will start showing us his true form when in the first team.

I agree with that - if i am on a game and the 3 officials know there is an assessor there (only happens to me about once every 4 or 5 weeks) there are certain things we know they are 'red hot' on eg substitutions on the half way line, one player off before the other comes on, injured players must leave the field after treatment, must do yellows for all 'mandatories' (eg kicking the ball away, deliberate hand ball..etc), must check the nets at half time, did your kit look neat and tidy ...etc - mostly pathetic things IMO. Rarely does an assessor say that you have been too harsh card wise, often they say 'you should have booked more' - hence why some refs are 'card happy'. Other things like did the 3 of you get decisions right, did you let the game flow, did you have a good rapport with the players? which to me are the key matters seem unimportant in comparison with procedures. For these reasons sometimes the type of people who 'get on' in refereeing are of a certain type if you get my drift - and not a type I fall into. I know brill refs who got to a certain level and then fell out with the top brass because they could not help but speak out at the cr@p they were being told by assessors and so they were demoted and they would be far better refs than some I see in the PL.

Whats that all about then? - I must come clean and say i am a ref in local leagues but in your eyes presumably all refs are idoits we don't need them ....etc - yeah whatever - next time engage brain before opening mouth. No of copurse refs do not think the game exists for them you muppet, but obviously as people who are deeply involved they have views on what goes on and have the right to say them. I'd far sooner listen to refs than Jose, Fergie, Mark Hughes or Steve Bruce or other twisted biased individuals who wouldn't know fair play if it came up and hit them in the face. Also what about the previous highly intelligent contribution (from Brownie was it) calling JW a blank blank cunt or something like that - can't be bothered even looking up the exact quote as it was so pathetic. What JW says is clearly dead right and common sense and all true footy fans should agree - CFC and MUFC's disrespect for officials and random cheating is exactly what turns a lot of decent people off the game. I think you are falling into the trap of just cos you didn't like JW as a ref (and neither did I particularly) you think all he says is wrong. I mean i don't like police or tories but it doesn't mean they are always wrong - if they say something I listen and then decide - its like that with JW - I listen and weigh it up and this time he is spot on IMO. As a ref I want refs views represented as pundits more often as frequently Gray and his ilk talk rubbish and need challenging and in that respect JW is a welcome addition to the pundit arena. Unlike some ex refs he does seem a genuine football lover who can laugh at himself which must be a good trait. Sometimes people say they wish refs would come on and explain what they do - well JW does and gets condemned for it. Phrases which come to mind are 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' or 'no win situation'

Yeah i think a yellow - won't be overturned tho i bet. Old Dermot (Gallagher) has been found out a few times in the past for being too lenient with the cards so i think now he tends to overcompensate when the chance comes to do so as happened on saturday. If in doubt between a red or yellow DG will always now give a red - and the assessor (who is all he is bothered about) will be OK with that. Mind you he messed up big style in the Mendes incident with Thatcher didn't he as I am sure he was the ref then. Surprised they have let him back on the Prem after that incident.

Going back to the title of the thread - should have been a pen to Chelsea as the ball was not dead when Lehmann pushed Drogba and then DD retaliated = correct decision yellow to both and a pen to CFC. Surprised nobody (especially Mourhinho!!) has made that point very strongly - otherwise Wiley had a good game - OK yeah Cole did foul before the CFC goal but it was an 'easy to miss' one. Not that I wanted a CFC pen as I hate CFC and all they stand for with a passion. I think of the 2 I would prefer MUFC to win the league such is my hatred of CFC - altho that hope was severely tested last weekend with Ronaldo and Fergie's response to it which reminded me how much I hate MUFC too - frankly they are both horrible teams full of cheating nomarks on the field and on the bench and I hate them both but sadly it seems one of them will have to win the PL.

My take on our midfield - I like Momo and when fit he should always play as he is clearly the best we have at that role altho not in the Makalele class to be fair, but when he is not fit as now we do not really have anyone who can play his role (unlike most other postions in the team where we have a choice of at least 2 players) and so we need to think about that. The situation was so bad a week or two ago it crossed my mind to get Diao back as at least he does do that role - yes I know it was a brain storm and i quickly rejected it but that is how bad it is. I can see some sense in waiting till summer as very rarely are jan signings great but if we can get someone for that role in January then we should just do it!! BTW having watched him in the reserves a few times I love Danny Guthrie as a player and am hoping that some time whilst these injuries persist that he will get a decent amount of time on the pitch for us as I am dead sure he will make a player one day - and I want it to be for LFC not some other club. In Turkey this week for a start?... but he is not suited for the Momo role and should not be asked to do it - he is a flair attacking player who can shoot and unlock defences.

To be fair much as I hate rooney I do no think he is anywhere near in the class of ronaldio and robben in the diving stakes - i would love an interviewer to ask fergie something like 'given the fact that utd legends like roy keane and rooney have come out so much anti diving how can you justify playing that cheating portuguese scumbag in your team as he has been shown to cheat time and time again and sees no wrong in it apparently?' No doubt he'd find some way to bluster his way through but as he is such a bully nobody would dare ask him such a question. I just want them to punish the likes of him and diuof and ban them for about 10 games - that might make them stop - but the way the FA is they could not make the punishment stick. Makes me despair a bit.