Timão

If you cannot see the difference between Kenny 2011 and Rodgers 2012 in terms of transfers and the difference that can make in the league, the there no helping you. But then, you being you, nothing surprises me.

And in that first sentence the whole situation is summed up perfectly. We can go on about our history, titles one, fanbase etc. It makes little difference. The fact is that, since 2009, we have been an upper mid-table team, nothing more, nothing less. So, if Rodgers is underachieving, then so were Rafa and Kenny. And anyone who compares what Rodgers has had to spend with what Kenny had in 2011 is surely just having a laugh. We fucked up, simple as. It wasn't the first time and, if the last 25 years are anything to go by, it wont be the last.

Do give it a rest. The stupid here is Luis and not anyone else at the club. He should learn to think before he opens his mouth. Rodgers has defended him on numerous occasions about diving and he has been made to look like a fool by the player himself. The fact that he dived is no big deal in itself, but the fact that he lets his manager defend him and then come out with shite like that does, especially bearing in mind how he is perceived. Great footballer, not a very clever lad.

Not least by the fat one himself.

That may be true in relation to Engalnd but, in Germany, 'hype' was invented for Bayern. It's different to English press 'hype' but Bayern are never out of the media in Germany and have plenty of big egos at the club (and that's just off the field) to keep any coach on his toes. Agree with the rest, though. Bayern are certainly more stable than lots of other big European clubs.

Stop being so fucking hysterical. To be fair, this forum is full of hysterical people.

Wrong starting 11, much better second half and overall not too downbeat. Some of the comments on here are totally laughable. We've lost 8 out of the last 9 at Old Trafford with 4 different managers, but it's 'Rodgers out'. Grow a fucking pair and stop being such fucking whingers.

Not sure which of your comments is the most pathetic, the one above or the one about Kenny's signings. Having said that, though, your complete works would make for a great comedy book.

I am sorry, but that is bollocks. He did not 'give' us 8th place. He presided over a terrible second half of the season and SIX home wins in one full season...all that after spending more money than any Liverpool manager ever has or is ever likely to have again - certainly in the foreseeable future. You could well argue that his trophy and coming close to a second were enough to give him another season, but it was equally valid to say that 8th after all those signings was not good enough. As for the players Rodgers is using, what options has he got? He was told to slash the wage bill and we fucked up in the window, so we are left with Downing and the rest. We can hardly make a considered judgement on Borini and I like Allen. The only major flop has been Sahin who I thought would play more and do more, having seen him play lots of times - and very well - for Dortmund. We are underachieving at the moment, but Rodgers has inherited a situation not of his own making and it will take a long time to sort this club out.

Your point? We were in Europe because we won the League Cup...on penalties....against a Championship side. Great to win a trophy, but it says absolutely nothing about your on-the-field performance...just ask Birmingham City. As for the Europa League, I frankly don't care much whether we are in it or not, and certainly would not write it down as my great acheivement if I had qualified the club for it by beating a first division side on penalties.

ON the field we are currently not a big club, however much you want to value the League Cup. Last season was shite, however much you want to spin it, millions spent, 52 points. We still have a name and still have POTENTIAL, but that is all. We have not realised aour potential for 2 decades, despite the CL win in 2005. The way you are writing, everything was fine before the current owners and manager came in and they somehow fucked it up. Fact is, we have the owners and manager we have because we fucked it up for years beforehand.

A previous post went all ape 'we are not fucking Swansea', now the above! Get it into your head: We are (currently) NOT a big club in Europe, we have hisotry and that is all we have. At this moment in time we are not big in any sense of the word. It drives me fucking mad when people talk as if we were at the level of Utd or even fucking Borussia Dortmund...we are nowhere near it, we are a mid-table club with a glorious history who came close to financial meltdown less than three years ago. What DO people expect? FSG have fucked up on several issues since they have taken over but, as said before, they gave Kenny more money to spent than ANY LFC manager in modern times and he wasted it (Suares and Enrique excepted). We have been out of the CL since 2009, we had huge debts, we are no longer a top address in European or even English football. The owners threw money at it and it went wrong, why would they do it again? Fact: We are were we are because we have been very bad at running ourselves properly. Rodgers may or may not be the right manager, but that is not his fault. Dortmund would actually be a great example to follow: nearly folded, gave a new and inexperieneced manager time (but not much money), had a plan and stuck to it. The result is there for all to see. It is time we, as fans and as a club, admit how far we have fallen so that we could at least TRY to climb back up.

Some incredible comments on this thread. Anyone who cannot see that we are making progress after what was a very shaky start is wilfully blind. Rodgers was shafted in August but has got on with it. Fact is that he did not have much money to spend because of the shitload we spunked on a load of shite 12 months before. Time to judge him will be in 12 or 18 months time. Early signs? Not without his faults but reasonably encouraging.

You take talking shite to new levels, even for this forum.

Abroad maybe, but at home? Benitez' league record was not all that different from Evans' (who was, in fact, more consistent) or Houlliers. Between 3rd and 5th was the norm for us until 2010. Europe is a different story, obviously

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I have nothing against spending, and even spending big. At times, you have to do it if you can, and even the 'old' Liverpool spend big on some players, Kenny included at the time. My point since the 1990s has been that we have thrown good money after bad, always with the argument that we have to 'spend more' in order to 'catch up'. We have, generally, been spectacularly bad at spending big money with few, but significant exceptions (Haman at the time, Torres etc.). In other words, we have been very, very bad at making the most of our resources in terms of getting the best that OUR money (the club) can buy. Steven Kelly from TTWAR never stopped to make the comparisson between us and Utd in the 1990s. They bought Schmeichel, we bought James They bought Irwin, we bought Dicks They bought Keane, we bought Stewart They bought Cantona, we bought Clough They bought Cole, we bought Collymore etc. The point being that money in itself did not stop us from being successful, it was how it was spent. Obviously since then Chelsea and City have changed the game but Utd are STILL there whilst we are nowhere to be seen. Our 2011 transfer window was a classic example of why we have fallen so far (amongst other things) and that was not the current owners' fault. I would certainly criticise the owners for the squad depletion that has gone on this summer, not getting in another striker (as well as a couple of other players) was a huge mistake. BUT their idea of getting value for money in the market is surely right, even within the changed context of Chelsea and City. Maybe we will never be back to where we were in terms of success, I suspect we wont. But if we have owners who FINALLY start having a plan and sticking to it whilst remembering at least SOME principles of what it takes to run a football club well then I am all for it.

and in that one sentence, the whole fucking problem of the fanbase we have today is summed up nicely...it is as if the last 20 years - and certainly the last 5 - never happend. We never spent what was needed to 'get the job done', we spent what we had and made best use of those resources. The idea that after our transfer dealings in 2011, we should just continue to spend, spend, spend - again as if Henderson, Downing, Adam and the other shite never happened - is just beyond belief. We should live within our means, improve those means and make best use of them. We have been terrible at all three things for ages - Kenny 2011 included - and who is (unfairly) paying the price for that now is Rodgers.

This forum is full of absolute know-nothings. We just got a point away to Chelsea with probably to weakest squad we have had in decades, we have not lost in 6 PL games, and have begun to tighten up defensively. By no means is everything rosy, but anyone who cannot see some progress during the last few league games is either blind or willfully ignorant. So glad we are different.

Disagree strongly. We did obviously do well between 2000 and 2006, though not always in the League: 2003, 2004 and 2005 were not good in league terms. Looking at Moorse's tenure as a whole, what do we have? > A club which went from being champions or contenders every year to one which has challenged for the championship twice (97 and 2002, 2009 we were already under H&G) in 20 years > A club which, more than any other, failed to realize its potential in the new 'money era' of the PL, as a direct consequence of decisions taken (or not taken, as it were) by him and those he employed > A club in which every crucial strategic decisions taken was the wrong one: Keeping Souness after 'Loverpool', keeping Souness in 93, joint managers, selliing to G&H etc. The man was incapbale of taking the right decision and, as a direct consequence, we fell off the top of the tree in English football. I see where you are coming from in the sense that the club was still financially stable and running a relatively sound business, but I look at it over the longer term and where we were when he came in and where we were when he left and what he left us with and, in that sense, he was terrible. I also look at it from the point of view of where we could have been had we been run properly. As I said in the previous post, what gets to me is that he installed a cultue of 'good enough' at the club, of 'well, it's not too bad' and it is this culture which fed through to managers, players and fans. The reason I am patient with Rodgers and the owners is the fact that they do not only operate under different financial circumstances due to previous missmanagement but also the fact that they have to change the culture of the club, which will take a long time. The fact that we were still a successful cupside for a few years does not take away from that aegument, but rather puts the achievemnt of those two managers in a more positive light.

You are talking absolute shite. Ever since Souness we have had managers who have tried to re-define whiat success should be at Liverpool. Souness never stopped about 're-building' the club, Evans helpfully told those of us who were critical of him to 'look at the table', Houllier kept going on about how 'we cannot compete', Rafa pointed out, quite rightly, that 'he did not come to Liverpool to win the League Cup' and never stopped talking about how few 20m GBP players we had in the squad (when things were not going well), Hodgson is the epitomy of a lack of ambition. Kenny, to be fair to him, did see a trophy, any trophy, as worth having, but times had moved on and, having spent what he did and finished on 52 points, could hardly complain about getting the boot. The fact is that we are where we are because we have been terribly managed for 25 years and have constantly talked ourselves down. Moores lowered our ambitions, H&G never had any in the first place. The result is here for all to see and it is neither FSG and certainly not Rodgers' fault. I keep saying it: It will be years - if ever - before we can challenge again. Whether FSG will get us there, I have no idea and they certainly fucked up in August but it is just pathetic to scream 'rip up seats and protest' when we sat there for 20 years watching Moores run us into the ground.

Really do not want to go all academic and theoretical but, workwise, I do a lot of research institutional behaviour and culture. LFC, as an institution, is submissive, that is the culture which has been installed over the last 25 years. We have lost all ability to act decisively and strategically first because Moores simply was incapable of doing so and then because the new owners had no interest in long-term thinking and changing the culture. We just lived from re-financing to re-financing deadline. I actually think that our current owners are trying to change this, though I have my doubts that they will be successful. If they are, it will take a long, long time. As an institution we are still an empty shell, destroyed by decades of bad management. Having lost our place as THE club in English football and been overtaken by not just one but several others, confidence has drained away both on and off the pitch. We SHOULD of course respond to stuff like Pullis because it is a disgrace, but he says it because HE is secure and is following a clear line within his club and he knows that WE will not respond, too caught up in our own misery and general lack of direction. As I said, I still think that can change but it wont be today or tomorrow.

Quite enjoyed what I saw of the match, other than the result obviously. You can see that,in certain areas, we are making progress. Some of our football is great...we did make 8 changes last night as well, which does not help in terms of defensive cohesion. I just hope we can keep our nerve and keep working on what Rodgers is trying to put in place. In some ways I am reminend of the beginning of the 2002/03 season when Houllier was trying to put in place a more `expansive` style of play. The first two home games of that season we played great football, went ahead, missed lots of chances and ended up drawing 2-2 (one aginst Birmingham, the other I cannot remember). He lost his nerve, went back to his counter-attacking style and it all went downhil from there. Patience will be requied but I think we will get thee. BTW, has there ever been a worst year in terms of home form than 2012? Shocking.

Used to watch a lot of Dortmund when I ws in Germany working. Brilliant experience going to that ground on a regular basis. Dortmund should be a model to follow. Were within 20 minutes of going bust and that forced them to change their approach. Their youth and scouting system is superb and in Klopp they have a manger with a very clear idea of playing. He once said that the game without the ball is almost more important than the one with it and if his team got done by somebody losing the ball or a tackle he would be more annoyed with the player not covering than the player who lost the ball. They are a very well drilled team and very, very fit...they have to be to play the style they do. Early impressions of Rodgers do seem to show some similarities but he seems to me to be more concerned about posession than Klopp. I am not sure whether and when Klopp will leave Dortmund or indeed Germany. He was at Mainz as player and coach for something like 18 years and he is in his 5th season in Dortmund. There is really nowhere else for him to go in Germany after this unless Bayern turn their entire philosophy on its head. I think we would suit him totally in terms of mentality but he has never worked outside Germany. Not sure the 'noveau rich' clubs would be for him, but money may talk in the end.

Very good post. Rodgers should be in charge of all football matters in my opinion but some kind of guidance would have been good. The huge difference between us now and us in our glory days is the fact that there exists a gigant gap between the football management and 'the club'. This is nothing new, it was there, if less obviously, under Moores and H&G. When our show was run by Smith, Robinson and the manager, there was clear continuity and also respect, because each one knew a little bit about the other one`s job. There were, therefore, feedback loops and sounding boards for decisions. We have none of this now which leads to days like last week. I actually think that FSG have realised this - they have certainly talked about it - but have not yet managed, for whatever reason, to put the structure in place to address this disconnect. Maybe in Ayre and Werner as the Robinson and Smith parts of the 'threesome' are just the wrong people. Certainly a football CEO in the Dein or Barwick mold would help. The bigger picture still is that LFC continue to get big decisions wrong, as they have done consistently for two decades. The chickens have come home to roost.

Why should they put their own money in? We are a fucking business, nothing more and nothing less. LFC is not their plaything as Chelsea or City are to their owners. If they are to run it as a business, than they have absolutely no obligation to put their own money in. I am as fed up as anybody about not having another striker, but let`s stay in the real world. I said it in 2003: Chelsea have ruined football and brains alike.