The Thong

Fair fucks to that. I have mixed feelings too. But maybe the whole conception of "it's only a champions league, if only champions enter", is bit outdated anyway. I suppose my main point is that luck is a bigger and bigger factor in the UCL than in the league, or Serie A or La Liga, so for me at least I can' t rate it higher than a league title. but only on that basis. So that is not in anyway to negate the achievments of our superior five.

Agreed, Reina >>> Given

I don't give a fuck who you are but that is funny !! :laugh:

Look at it season on season, by trophy count, by goals conceded, and you will see that VDS and Cech have out performed, Reina. At the end of this season if past performance is guider of future peformance, VDS and Cech, will still perform better. Cech has come under criticism lately but even so, VDS I would say is the best performing. Look at the stats buddy, they don't lie.

Okay fair john's it was a bit OTT and a bit of a rant but that really is my point about the common perception that our players with the exception of Gerrard and Torres, IMO, are overrated. I only used the other clubs and players as examples where arguably (well, in my opinion), there are better players or perhaps, maybe the point is better "performing"? NOW, here is the thought, ARE THEY BETTER PLAYERS or are they simply BETTER MANAGED? This is creally the crux of the argument - you all may think that what I said is a load of shit but is it because you genuinely think that pound for pound are players are better than some of the examples I have given? If they are, why are they not performing? The reason that they are not performing must be (a) they are not better (my point); or (2) they are not managed well enough to be better (another one of my points). The truth is probably that they are not managed well enough. That is a Rafa issue, more that a player issue. So this goes back to another point. Does Rafa fuck up players, do his methods conspire not to extract the best out of certain players. I think that has to be some truth in that.

A quality post and a very realistic assessment not made through rose tinted classes of false conceptions of "our record". What I would say is the the CL has also been devalued. Mancs never won it as champs in 1999 and of course we never won it as champs in Istanbul. Firstly, in the CL luck plays a much bigger part than in the EPL. Look at the mancs in 1999, us in Istandbul, JT missing the penalty against Mancs last year. The CL is not as pure as it used to be and 3/4 place sides can win it. In my opinion that is wrong. CL should be be 1/2 place teams and that is it. The next two in UEFA and then then the next two in some other trophy. There is only ONE truly great title and that is the old 1st division, premiership and the premier league. You win that, you are the best, most successful, period. Anything else is a bonus until UEFA get their money grabbing heads out of their arses and make the UCL and UEFA more purer competions.

Fair fucks to that and him. The thing about a player about Feltcher is that he is Manc through and through - they could bench the cunt all season but for the last game he would still give 100%. that is the advantage of home grown players - same with John OShite. We need more solid cunts on the bench who will give 100% and support the effort, not go missing.

"Pepe,Skrtel,Agger,Alonso,Masch & Torres" Only two of these are genuine world class, and that is Nando and possibly Reina Van Der Sar, Cech, Cassilas, Buffon all shit on Reina Skrtel? FFS, Vidic, Carvalho, Terry, Ferdinand (and another 10 internation defenders shit on Skrtel) Agger? Good player but Clichy, Sagny, Evra, Abidal, Cashley Cole, Boswinga (plus another five in Europe) way better Alonso? Well Rafa fucked him up. Testament to Alonso that he still produces the goods but would still be owned by Xabi, Scholes, Iniesta, Fabregas ... plus loads more ... Mascherano? FFS, not even fit to lace Essien's shoes, Mikel would own him and so would an ageing Makele. Probably has 20% of Carricks passing and interception ability. Get fucking real. These are good and at best solid buys but wake up and smell the coffee, only Torres is a class master. Only Gerrard (which he inherited) and Torres would make the first team of any of the Mancs, Chavs and Le Arse. Reina I'll give you could displace Almunia but the rest bench material and that is the end of it. As for this being a spine of a league winning squad - you have to be having a laugh? Apart from Reina, Alonso and Skrtel none of the above is even a regular first team teamer - how the hell can they be the spine of the squad? We all have to stop being deluded about this. He has not bought sufficient quality for the cash he has spent. Moreover he does not seem to be learning from his mistakes.

Indeed, it is the difference between Grant and Ranieiri, and Moany Ho. You can't just throw money at a problem - a team and players need to be managed. Money gets you the tools and a platform but management ultimately wins you the league. Chavs under Scolari, Grant and Ranieiri v. Chavs under Moany Ho is a good example.

The thing is that in the EPL it does take a different type of mindset and management style to win it. Rafa does not have that, it's a great run followed by SHIT. Moany Ho and Fergal have it and so did Arse Winger. That said, I think Rafa is on par with the Fergal and Moany Ho when it comes to the UCL, which requires a team to be absolutely on the game at set times in the calendar. When its good with Rafa it is very good but when it is shit, it really is a load of gash. You can get away with that in the UCL up to a point but not in the EPL. The EPL exposes all the greatness and weaknesses in a manager. There are no excuses and the luck evens itself out over a long hard EPL season.

You can't replace Gerrard or even stick someone in his role. In the same way that you can't replace Keane or Viera, or Fabregas. These types of players are freaks of nature. You need another freak and then build a team around them. This new chap looksokat but nothing special.

He's actually been vital for the Mancs this and last season so much so that he has edged up from being merely a squad player. Same as John O'Shea. He's all about hard work and application. He does a job and does it well. He accepts that he will be benched now and again and same goes for John O'Shea, the difference between Mancs and us is that their bench is solid, not amazing or fantastic, except say Tevex but plain solid. They can all do a job and do it reasonably well. Our bench has a much lower average quality level and experience level. In Jan to March, this is vital as injuries come. Ugly Bird Rio, replaced by Evans, who has been rock solid. Granny Shagger Rooney, replaced by Tevez and Wellbeck, both solid and Tevez, exceptional. Gaz Numpty Neville, Wes Ginger Cunt Brown and Frog Face Evra out, bring in that little Brazilian fuck Rapheal who is lightening as well as John O Shea. This is where the 1-0's make the difference, and the league is won. To win the EPL you need a consistency that comes from fitness and spreading the workload across a squad that by and large can perform. We aint got that - but for cup competitions such as UCL, we can more than rise to the occasion.

Or an apology from the manager who has had five years to build a squad that is essentially just good except for two world class players? We are dreadfully exposed at the moment.

Thing is Stevie has always been a bit of a thick cunt when it comes to challenges and diving. Not saying he is worse that anyone else - there are plenty of other candidates for thug/diver of the year but one of these days its gonna be a big one. Viera had it and so did Keane, and so with Stevie, maybe blood and thunder is part of the game yes, but Le Arse and the Mancs had decent back-up but more importantly, quality in other areas of the park. Apart from Nando and maybe our goalie, the rest are very good at best but more like, good and some distinctly average. My issue is not so much with the result but with the performance. And if Rafa really did think that the FA Cup was not that important what the fuck did he play Gezza and Nando? The negativity has set into Rafa's disturbed mind and I now suspect that he will once again go into his tried and tested comfort zone to go for the UCL as opposed to going all guns blazing for the EPL. We haven't got the squad for a sustained high level campaign in the EPL. Anyone who has seen our recent blip can see that - what we do have is the ability to raise our game once or twice a month (say against the Chavs or a Euro side) and win that way. I'm not so bothered because its what many of us expected. We can keep the faith but we are not blind to the truth. Also some of the players are fucking useless in terms of work-rate. I can see how some of them do not have the talent of Torres or Gerrard buyt FFS, not to give 100% in that red shirt is scandalous.

Indeed. I do not understand this. :wallbutt:

Forget all this shite about he deserved better. What we need to examine is was this the right decision for LFC? We are in all the serious competitions and therefore it has to be accepted that we need a squad capable of competing at top class level into June. If we don't want to win all in front of us then, weakening the squad is defensible. Is this weakening the squad? On the balance of probability, it has to be a Yes. Have we bought in a replacement? No. Do we have adequate cover? I think that is debatable but the answer has to be, possibly. We have cover, whether they have the experience of Keane and ability, is not proven. So at best there are question marks. Would we rather have him in our squad, then not have him, without a replacement? This has to be yes. Extra body, extra cover and a very hard worker. Okay, it's not worked out but given where we are fighting on all fronts, it has to be the case that you would rather have him on bench or in squad. Is the priority the league this season or is it sound financial management for the summer? It has to be the league this season. Quite frankly, I do not give a FUCK if get a winger this summer. If we win the league, we will attract more players, be richer and can build further. Why the fuck would anyone think, lets cash in now because we will get a better player in summer. What about NOW? When are some of the cunts going to stop living for next season? Honestly, we have a fighting chance NOW. So we wait until the rest of the rivals strengthen their squads? Whether it was a mistake to sell him only time will tell? As will Rafa's rant, etc. What has to be the case is that that technically the squad is weaker and so our chances of winning on all three fronts have been reduced. That doesn't mean we won't win anything but just that the chances are reduced. That is all. It seems to me that this is not what we should be doing. My issue is not so much with getting rid of Keane but not getting a viable alternative. Think about it, it's February and we off-load a striker?! It's either genius or insanity.

Spot on, unless we have something up our sleeves in the next few mins. Truly outrageous decision.

Excellent - another draw at home and another fixture. You can bang on about being negative but I bet there would be less negativity if the performance was better. A draw, well fuck it, it's the quality of the performance that counts and that was not a performance again. Something not right, I hope it's winter blues but Rafa failing to extract performances from these players.

About fucking time too. Now let's rape them.

Agreed, this is a cup game, no fucking nonsense - time to hand out some beats because this is woeful.

Useless shower of cunts. Disgraceful defending - what the fuck have they been doing all week? Okay - let's get behind them and see if they can deliver a performance. They need a kick up their arses, hopefully this will be it.

Agreed that if half of the players showed the commitment that Carra and SG show, the performances would be much better. He's getting better and better, not just defensively but also his distribution out of defence and moving the ball deep into midfield. He's defo on par with cunt face Terry now - but I'd say both are behind Vidic as the best "defending" defender in the EPL. All these three are however IMO behind Ferdinand and Carvalho as the best "ball-playing" defenders in the EPL. As much as I hate to say it, these two cunts and thier ability to distribute from defence to midfield/attack is a notch above everyone else. The thing that once again pisses me off is the Carra should be as good as Vidic. Honestly, the constant fucking about with the back four has destablised the defence. Sure, you accept injuries but if Hypia is in, he in IN unless he consistently fucks-up or is injured. Defence has to be stable, has to communicate with each other - and the only way that can happen is if you have consistency of personnel. Still pissed off from the Neverton fiasco ...

I'd go for Hiddink but Martin O'Neil would be an excellent choice too. This man can get blood from a stone. I'm am sure that he would extract a better week-in, week-out performance than Rafa. He is not tactically as astute as Rafa but that will come with time with a good continental second. For the EPL, against certain opposition over-engineered tactical theory does not work. You need to manage and play like a bloody minded teenager and fight a war of attrition, Rafa cannot do that (his philosophy is not to smash the opposition with passes, shots, volleys and hard runner but to unlock them through tactics) and so some extent nor can Wenger over the last few years. The EPL is not about an art-form unless you're Arsenal and even then, they had the magnificent Viera as their midfield destroyer. Hiddink as number 1 choice. Simply brilliant record, brilliant person and would be excellent and understand to the fans. MO'Neil as a work in progress candidate but a guy who could build a dynasty within 5 years just like Fergal and Wenger.

Guus Hiddink and I think he would come.

Bang on the money. It's all about art, precision, tactics with Rafa and not about basic man-managment. He seems so far away, so distant from his players and the field of play. Compare to Martin O'Neil and Villa - decent lads but not in anyway world class but playing positive football and performing very well. Imagine what he could so with these lads.