mars

But I'm not drawing that conclusion - I am simply saying that we don't know whether what applies to non-athletes can be applied to athletes. The two papers relied on studies of non-athletes. That the onus should be on TW to show there is no advantage is a fair point, though the article I posted did attempt that.

I accept that transwomen can have an advantage in sports: if a well trained athlete has been taking GAHT (gender affirming hormone treatment) for 3 months, the impact will be small enough to confer an advantage. Lia Thomas has been taking GAHT for almost three years, so in her case I would argue that there is not any clear evidence yet that she has an unfair advantage. The first paper seems to consider GAHT for up to 24 months: Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. (my highlight) The second paper confuses me. On the one hand it states: The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. But immediately afterwards: Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy. The weakness of both papers, in my view, is that they consider only untrained trans and cis women. I am not confident that conclusions for untrained people can be applied to highly trained athletes (and unless more transwomen athletes compete, there will remain a paucity of data). The first paper is interesting as it considers the impact of male advantage in different sports - note that for swimming, this advantage is smaller than for most other sports listed. I think the Independent article has merit and while it proves nothing, it does raise doubt over the notion that Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage. The two scientific papers are interesting and to me suggest that this is a complicated issue that requires further study: can we compare results for non-athletes with those of athletes? Should sports bodies require that GAHT be taken for longer than 12 months, and should this period be different for different sports? Indeed.

Cheers - haven't had time to look at these yet but appreciate the reply. Likewise - let's just say it has more detail than your first reply.

Really? I've admitted that I thought there were issues with trans athletes competing against cis athletes so was rather hoping for at least a little counterargument. All I see above is name-calling and ad hominem. Surely there must be articles that present data to support the claim that trans athletes have an advantage?

This is interesting - data suggests Lia Thomas didn't have an unfair advantage. It's a long article but worth reading. Rather a shame this was ever an issue as the spotlight should have been on Kate Douglass' extraordinary performance. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ncaa-b2044605.html

Don't drag me into this.

Was going to congratulate you on your National Geographic picture of the year! Glad someone posted it somewhere as it is an amazing image.

1. Captain Willard didn't listen carefully enough or 2. Captain Willard's leisure activities often involve white sheets and burning crosses.

Couldn't agree more. I think the media are happy to latch on to the behaviour of the more extreme elements because it stokes outrage and sells advertising space. Surely there has to be a less vocal, reasonable majority on both sides? Schoolboy error.

I don't think transphobia applies in that scenario - if it did, wouldn't most men be classed as transphobic?

Ma-Ma (Dredd) The Beldam (Coraline) Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (Fifth Element)

Remember that I wasn't including murder - the point you made was about getting beaten up. I used the ONS Nature of Crime dataset for March 2020; Table 8a Offender characteristics; excluding crimes were both male and female were involved, the figure goes up to 25%; for 2020 it was about 13%. Men are much more prone to violence but I don't think it is accurate to claim women aren't dangerous. Unless I have misread the data, in which case I hope some kind soul will point out the mistake I have made. I don't see disability, or race, as comparable to gender. I guess there must be a rare condition that proves me wrong but I just don't see anyone thinking that they didn't belong in an able body. We have different viewpoints but I don't think we're that far apart on key aspects of this. We're both entirely relaxed about people identifying as a different gender and you don't come across as someone who would intentionally misgender someone. I agree there are issues with sport that have not been satisfactorily addressed but then there are still issues with female athletes who have higher levels of testosterone. The changing room issue is complicated because it covers different types of location, eg swimming pools and department stores. Self identification is not without problems, and then there is the housing of trans prisoners. I think my fear is that this feels like the late 80s, section 28 and Conservative views on homosexuality: being gay was a lifestyle choice and conversion therapy could "fix the problem". Therefore I am more prone to be supportive of the trans community until someone proves to me that transpeople are making a lifestyle choice, that the feeling they are the wrong gender is spurious. I don't support the death threats and dumb bellowing of "transphobe" by the self-righteous extremes of the movement. Ultimately my views are of no consequence as young people I meet seem far more supportive of the right to self identify and discount what I see as valid concerns for some women.

I think it's points 3 and 4 where we really disagree - the data suggests transpeople are not "very, very" safe in the UK. Some women do "leather people" - the ONS figures for 2020 suggest up to 25% of violent crime is committed by women. Sadly this data includes nothing on the victims of female violence - like you, I suspect it is directed towards other cis women but it's only a suspicion and therefore shouldn't be claimed with confidence. It would help if you didn't employ so much hyperbole as it detracts from the issues you raise. I appreciate your point but the phrase "unhappy as a white male" focuses on males transition (I'm sure you meant "white person") and that this is because of unhappiness, which is vague and I would prefer to understand the root of the unhappiness. Do you accept that gender dysphoria exists? I am unaware of any race dysphoria and that is why I don't think the original question you pose is helpful. Having said that, I think there may be situations where people might want to self identify their race (while agreeing with Rico that it is a tricky term). If someone wants to call themselves whatever to bring some happiness into their lives, and in doing so isn't causing unhappiness elsewhere, then I am prepared to go along with it even though I may not agree or understand.

I don't believe black people have the disposition towards violence that you are assigning to them - aren't they more likely to point out what a dickhead this man is? Next you'll be telling us this restaurant is in LA and run by Bloods. And what's this nonsense about murders? We were talking about violence, or the lack of if what you claim is correct. You said: "But if a subset of men is unsafe from other men..." and now you've switched to transmen are in no danger from women - this makes no sense. And you claim that Pink News is biased, which I suggested in my original post, and then post an article from The Critic, contributors include David Starkey, Peter Hitchens and Toby Young. What makes someone "black" is an interesting question. I don't know enough about race to give a confident answer. Is it simply skin colour? Does culture play a part and if so how much? Is an experience of prejudice part of the answer? How much does ancestry contribute and how many generations do you travel back to? If dad is black and mum is white, are the children black? I suspect what seems a straightforward issue might be more complicated when you try to pin down a definition.

The words gave it away. As for transpeople being "very, very safe" in the UK, that might not be entirely true. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/13/trans-hate-crime-report-galop-transphobia-violence-online-sexual-assault-uk/ Not sure the above is unbiased but this uses Home Office figures: According to the latest Home Office figures, police recorded 1,651 hate crime offences against trans people in England and Wales in 2017-18. Nine per cent involved “violence against the person with injury” and a further 24 per cent involved “violence against the person without injury”. On that basis, we calculate that the police recorded 545 violent hate crimes against trans people in England and Wales in 2017-18. Of those, 149 crimes resulted in injury.

Are you really saying that transwomen aren't the target of violence?

Hurt

I know, it was probably an intentional typo but I laughed.