isr

gmac, I quoted you because I was responding to the argument separating the 2 things (Benitez out, Hodgson in). As for who is "you" and who were "they" - take that as more of a general pointer towards the "boo boys". The more vocal of them, we all know who they are. I left 2 "you's" in that post. In hindsight, I should have made all references more general. My mistake.

You're letting yourselves off the hook too easily. The removal of Rafa and the arrival of Hodgson (or another manager of similar calibre) were NOT seperate events. We had a manager with an excellent pedigree (2 La Liga's), and who had already achieved some great things with Liverpool (1 European Cup, 1 FA Cup, runners up in European Cup and League). And more importantly, he had demonstrated a willingness to fight his corner in a screwed up club, where another manager of similar calibre would just have said "FUCK YOU" and walked off to another top club. (seconds after he leaves Liverpool, the reigning European and Italian champions come knocking at his door) The boo boys were told, time and again, that whatever his mistakes, force Rafa out now and his replacement would be nowhere near his pedigree. The boo boys were salivating over Mourinho (sickening), Hiddink, etc. That was all a lie. You were lying to yourselves, and everyone else. In the pre-NESV climate, the ONLY type of manager we would have gotten to replace Rafa is exactly the type we HAVE gotten. The boo boys were all told this, repeatedly. So they can't claim now that their hands are clean. They asked for it. They got it.

If this means that Sam will have to do a Bollywood dance number on the field, then I'm all for it.

Seems like there are a bunch of twits on this forum in your predicament. Been foaming at the mouth since our last trophy win like rabid dogs at Rafael Benitez. For not turning a 2nd place in the European Cup into a 6th cup. Or for not turning a 2nd place in the League into our 19th title. Turning a blind eye to the CONSTANTLY pointed out fact that Liverpool can't afford to have this parasitic board be the ones to appoint a new manager. And turning a blind eye to the CONSTANTLY pointed out fact that Benitez was doing his job on a shoestring, compared to his rivals. Nope, it was all Rafa's fault. And now that he's gone, its still his fault. Hard to change course when you've charging blindly in the wrong direction for so long. But at least you're not bitter, eh? What a joke. You lot stand out like a light bulb at midnight. And with your blinkered shades on, you're the only fools who don't notice.

Welcome to the liverpool way. You've only been on this forum for a month (as you say), so you wouldn't have realised that this sort of behaviour is absolutely the done thing around here. 2 seasons ago, people were screaming on this forum for Rafa to get sacked after just 3 games (the draw with Villa). And continued at various points in the season. The season where we had our best domestic campaign in 20 years. Whatever you THOUGHT about how Liverpool supporters behaved, and whatever I (and others) USED to think - thats all delusional bollocks (sadly). This is the reality. Yesterday's hero becomes tomorrows cunts, proclaimed as such by the "most loyal fans in the world".

The way gypsies from Romania are looked down upon now is not too disimilar to how gypsies (or travellers, or whatever the local term for them is in that area) are treated elsewhere. Including the UK and Ireland. I grew up in the west of Ireland. I don't need the likes of you to "enlighten me". I saw plenty of gypsies, good and bad. Bogots are bigots. In this current "age of enlightenment" the only difference is that there are now only selected groups of people to whom one can publically express bigotry against, and get away with it. If you feel you're a "bigoted racist", then my condolences.

Its a self-fulfilling circle. People treat gypsies/roma's/travellers like shit. They give shit back, and resort to shitty means to earn a living. So people treat them even more like shit, this time with some verifiable anecdotes to fall back on. So they act accordingly. Marginalising, criminalising the entire lot of them, eventually leading to gas chambers. Thats one solution. No doubt about it. Its amazing. People will go to great lengths whining about how unfairly treated and marginalised their own community is. But will swallow the opposite side of the argument hook line and sinker when its about someone else. Good job Scousers would never fall for that one, eh?

Situations aren't the same (I know you weren't really arguing that they were). After the 84 season, there really was nothing left for Souey to do at Anfield (except I suppose a League Cup, FA Cup, League title and European Cup grand slam). As gutted as I was at the time, you could understand why he left. Football was more parochial (esp in England) at that time, and there was whole new universe of experiences waiting for him in Italy. For Gerrard, one wonders how much his recent personal experiences in Liverpool might also factor in (recall the recent thread about how malicious gossip was affecting him).

Like a lot of the bollocks spouted by your lot, this one too is a total and complete lie. In all the justified anger over the aftermath of Rafa's dismissal, the only references to what you claimed - the only ones - have been from those like you. Its all very convenient. You invent a ridiculous charge no-one made, and then make yourselves seem slightly less retarded and treacherous by defending yourselves - against that self-made trumped up argument. Here's what folks (me included) HAVE been saying. That all this hatred against Rafa was misplaced - and should have been directed against the real cancers in this club. Thats different from claiming that you and your lot actually are in support of the owners. I don't know how to make the explanation any more simpler than that. Of course, that won't stop another one you daft buggers from going onto another thread (or even this one further down), and still claiming the same ridiculous bullshit of: "oh, we're not allowed to criticise the manager" (if I had a penny for every time one of you fuckwits cried about this, I'd buy Google) "oh, its so unfair. You all think that just cause we no likee Rafa, we must lovee Hicksey" Its all a pack of outright lies, made up by yourselves. Its akin to standing in front of a mirror, accusing yourself of something, defending yourself from it, and then patting yourself on the back for "proving your innocence". That kind of behaviour usually warrants a one-way ticket to a padded cell. (to the OP, good post)

You say that as a joke. As a US resident, I actually DID look forward to Setanta's football coverage, as the only alternatives were: Fox (with English gimps who's only claim to footballing prowess and knowledge is that they have regional English accents. Oh, and Warren Barton) ESPN (enough said) Or GolTV, where the Geordie Hudson would orgasm all over the screen (live commentary, or studio discussion) at the drop of a hat. Seriously! :ermm:

I get the feeling that you are like a few others on this forum who love to pretend that they can't read or comprehend simple English. Just so they can put their own words in other peoples mouths, and then criticise them. Which part of this is so difficult to understand? I may think a manager is simply not good enough, end of story. I may think he is (or may be), but is screwing a few things up If I think any of the above, I'll express it. But spreading outright lies about the man, because I hate him. Or spreading vicious slander (on the verge of xenophobia). Or ignoring all other (more pressing) problems, and try to turn as many other people against him as possible (cause if I hate him, then everyone must as well) Or just hijacking everything to such an extent that some people are glad he's gone, just so that shit can be given a rest for a while. Or wallowing in delight when a Liverpool manager is sacked. None of those have got ANYTHING to do with expressing opinions of the manager, and nothing to do with a simple assessment of one man's ability to do his job.

1) Do I rate him? No. 2) Would I wish him the best, and support him to the hilt if he was to be Liverpool manager? Unreservedly. 3) Would I criticise him for mistakes he makes, and share my thoughts if I thought he wasn't the right man for the job. Yes, as I would have for Rafa, if thats what I would have thought. And for Houillier. For Evans. For Souness. For Dalglish. For Fagan. For Paisley. 4) if yes to 3 above, would I then turn on the man, and hound him like a rabid dog. No. Why? Because he's the manager of Liverpool FC. End of story. 5) if yes to 3 above. would I turn on him after he left Liverpool? No. Why? Because I would assume he would have done his best, and I would wish him well. YNWA! 6) "Would things turn full circle on here?" "but it does sum up the fickle nature of football fans in a nutshell. We are all guilty of it at times." Excusing yourself, with your projections of YOUR DEFICIENCIES AND CHARACTER FLAWS onto others? There is no "full circle". The only ones around here who will be fickle in the future, are the "supporters" who were fickle in the past. The vast majority (maybe not on this forum) were Liverpool supporters in the best and proud traditions of that word. And will continue to be. What you and your lot do, doesn't have much to do with that.

Oh, you mean the way you and many of your ilk acted throughout the season? "We're Liverpool FC" "Support the team" "Support the manager" "You'll never walk alone" Bullshit. Anything but, more like. Its a bit late to turn it on now, once you've shit all over it. Don't you think? http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/91960-where-all-rafa-bashers-4.html#post2288624 "a bit of a mess" "doom merchants" Take your heads out of the sandpit. What the fuck do YOU see when you look at that Liver bird? This is what I see. http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/91933-we-unofficial-administation.html#post2288706 And speaking of trench warfare. First rule. Don't pick guys to sit in the trenches with you, who have already proven themselves to be backstabbers in the past. Because when push comes to shove ....

Simple answer: you get more money for a Premier League club than a club which has just been relegated. The creditors (banks) don't own the shares, the Yanks do. To force a sale at a price the Yanks don't agree with it, they would have to force the issue, take it out of the Yanks hands, and put the club into administration. Why are they reluctant to do that? See the answer above, and also the other ramifications (PR and otherwise) of a British bank putting one of the biggest British sporting institutions onto the brink of extinction. So the Yanks let the banks take over de-facto control. Clawing money back here and there. While still playing a game of "chicken" with the banks, holding out for as much as they can get from an eventual sale - secure in the knowledge that the banks (for now) are loath to push it much further. But thats ok. As long as the real man responsible for our ills, Rafael Benitez, is thrown out. We should be fine now.

So, what you're saying is that Tomkins is just like some of the "honoured and esteemed" "in-the-know" posters on this forum. Except that he gives names, instead of pretending. :thumbsup:

I doubt that would happen. Someone who can't tell the difference between 16 and 3, isn't likely to be in position where anyone is going to offer them 3 of anything. Pounds, pence or pebbles.

And for the record, may I add that I'm delighted to see so many "supporters" delighted at the prospect of a manager (someone who lead us to the European Cup, almost repeated it, and 2 years ago - almost the league), being thrown out of the club by a group consisting of: - 2 Americans, who are consummate liars and thieves, and who have raped this club to the point where its senseless - 1 other American, who has in a short space of time already proven to be a consummate liar - 1 Englishman, a die-hard and life-long Chelsea supporter I'm inspired by the enthusiasm shown by many (not all) here for the amazing deeds this group of men will do for Liverpool Football Club, once the real cause behind all of this clubs problems has been thrown out of the door. Some of the delights we have in prospect. A top-class new manager (probably English, or at least British), who will show the previous incumbant (the idiot who won 2 La Liga's, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 FA Cup and 1 European Cup, all on a smaller budget than his rivals) just how its done. 20 million pounds to spend - net - before the next season. New owners, who will then invest 50+ million into the playing squad in the January transfer window. (of course, sacking Rafael Benitez is a necessary pre-requisite before getting any new owners in. Why? Don't ask why. Just accept it) All in all, I can certainly see why so many genuine die-hard Liverpool supporters, in the best traditions of that name, are jumping around with glee on this forum. Well done. If Shanks were here today, he'd be right with you. You should sprinkle more of this "Liverpool Way" onto the other forums you mention (Red and White Kop?).

Thanks for the response. I was genuinely wondering about that, as Rafa's contract was drawn up in the midst of open warfare between Hicks and Gillette, and the board being split into their respective camps. Perhaps investing the manager with some kind of veto power (on transfers over a certain amount) might have been seen as a way of stopping the "other" side from forcing something through.

(repeating the question, fast moving thread so not sure if those who might know saw the original post) Could someone enlighten me. Does Rafa have any kind of veto power over player sales, as per his current contract?

A question. As per his current contract, does Rafa have any kind of veto-power over player sales?

Some great posts on this thread (repped those involved, apologies to anyone I've missed). The standard counter argument goes something like this: internet forums like this are just the 21st century equivalent of a quiet after match pint with your mates. Venting, etc. Don't take it so seriously. My $0:02 (plus change): - they're not the same. The 21st century football forum is the equivalent of standing outside the gates after the game, and screaming your views with a loudspeaker. Its public (very public, depending on the forum involved), not private. The only difference is that the relative anonymity allows some to grow some (non-existent) balls, and say shit they would never say in person. - just saying something is inevitable (insults after a loss), doesn't mean it should be condoned, or allowed to pass. Throwing shitty personal insults at our manager isn't something which is right - no matter what whiny excuses people make for their state of mind at the time. When your defence starts to resemble the courtroom drama's "yes your honour, I stabbed that man in the back, but I was of unsound mind at the time ....", then you ought to realise you're on sticky ground. - no, objecting to villification of the manager is NOT a demand that everyone must believe he is the best, or the right one for the job, or even any good at all. Those are purely subjective football opinions (as long as you realise that I'm right and you're wrong ...). Bringing this up (once already on this thread) is just a fake argument. - ok, so "supporters" (I use that term advisedly) step way out of line. What to do? Let it pass? (cue above arguments of "its an inevitable reaction" or "its just a private rant on a forum") Or pull them up for it? (this thread) You can't undo what was done, but you can still show that it was CROSSING THE LINE. The next time someone wants to do it, they'll know. They're CROSSING THE LINE. Don't object? Pretty soon - "supporters" will start crossing the line, without even knowing it was there (thats a lesson for many things more important than just football, btw) - where does it stop? The whole Gerrard thing, and how some of our esteemed supporters have acted (abusing the wife of one of our players, in public, based on internet gossip about their private life) Do you think that happens in a vacuum? As expectations of what it means to be a Liverpool supporter become eroded, then behaviour will follow suit. Which brings us back to the original title of this thread. Yes, the "Liverpool Way" does have implications for supporters as well.

To follow on with your thoughts, I reckon: - without responsible new ownership, and adequate investment in the squad, it really won't matter WHO is the manager. We will just drift backwards. - with new ownership AND adequate investment (which also means having money up front so that we can plan our acquisitions more wisely, instead of selling to buy, and having our prime targets snapped up in the interim by others), its hard to think of a BETTER manager than Rafa (of those available). Which underpins the only truth behind the club. For all the need for scapegoats and sacrificial lambs, its almost impossible to truly judge his efforts thus far, until we have a proper ownership above him. Then give him a season (full season, with a summer of signings), and we'll see. Worst case, we lose a season. In the grand scheme of things - big deal. Best case, we had our man along - and now we realise it. Get rid of him now - and everyone, even his staunchest critics, will have a "hmm, we'll never really know, will we?" feeling at the pit of their stomachs. Liverpool FC isn't a club built around retaining a manager at all costs. But we've never gotten rid (post Shankly), unless we all KNEW that it was needed. What do you think?

Figures. So are you the 2 C's and 1 T then? (not quite as catchy)

No Ted. Having a pair of dimwits like the 2 C's (the lesser known cousins of the 3 Amigos's) gnaw on your leg for 3 pages for something they SWEAR you said (even though they made it up all by their little selves) ... thats enough to give ANYONE a superiority complex. Besides, I don't like Frosties. Would you like to feel superior too? Easy, just get into an argument with them.

Good to see that even the drooling idiots know their real place in the grand scheme of things, deep down. There IS some order in the universe, after all. Reassuring ....