melons

You really are playing troll card on this aren't you? Tell you what, you explain how everyone does have fair access to further education, then explain how you attained your degree for example? How much debt did you owe, who funded your A-levels (or equivalent)/ Theoretically, how, today you would manage to attain the same qualification should you be from a economically deprived background?

I came across this the other day, goes quite well with Moct's post. Iain Duncan Smith's 100 Biggest Failures. http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2014/01/the-cost-of-ids-100-ways-iain-duncan.html Unlike horse face's posts, it's actually got evidence!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-conference-david-cameron-accidentally-says-tories-resent-the-poor-9768106.html Superb work there, Dave.

Fuck me. Are you IDS's policy maker?? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/benefits-smart-cards-plan-revealed-by-iain-duncan-smith-to-stop-claimants-spending-welfare-money-on-alcohol-9763854.html I would love to see this fucker roll this out to pensioners too, given that is where most of the welfare money is spent it would stand to reason. But no, lets villify the poorer members of society. I hate this government.

Man, i totally missed out,, where is this tree of funding you speak about that will make being a student so lucrative?

I think this says it all.

Back up your argument with facts and respond to challenges with facts and you might gain some credibility. Right now you're like a petulant child who fears they're going to have to share their sweets.

You are Charles Murray and as a benefit scrounger i claim my £5.

But you agree, it's not a survivable income. Sort of blows your theory out of the water there, doesn't it? Why shouldn't education be state funded? Why shouldn't there be finance available for it for those unable to afford it but that clearly have the ability? No, there are not loads of charities around to adequately fund further education for all those who can not afford it. LOL! Twice? What the hell is going on with this place, no neg on either of those. I hope you're ashamed of yourselves forumites. I've met my neg quota apparently, otherwise i'd have sorted at least one.

Lol, lol, really? So her income isn't over 20k a year, it's actually the 7k? A single mother is supposed to be able to support her children on 7k? Genius! Read this shitforbrains, I graduated this year as a mature student, a single mother of 4 children. It's been a hard slog, I know all about those so called perks you are battering on about I know first hand the financial implications, so don't you even think of coming preaching to me. I can tell you now, it isn't all that. It isn't all rosey, it isn't all sitting there and having money thrown at you, getting a degree for ticking boxes, how dare you make such insinuations. I know damn well some people can better themselves, I'm evidence of that, however I'm not so self righteous to think that just because i managed it, it means everyone else can. Do i agree with 50% of the population having access and graduating from further education? Err yeah too bloody right I do. An education for a salary shouldn't be the sole reason a person gets a degree, it should be about bettering yourself and if the income goes up with that, bonus. More importantly it should be about what can be passed on, that wealth of knowledge shouldn't be restricted to only those that can afford it, nor should it be defined by what it can earn you as an individual but how it can better society. The issue is paying extortionate fees for the privilege of gaining that knowledge. But if you have the means to finance it, knock yourself out. Going back to basics, the poorer members of society have less options. Do i support Labour? No, I don't. I think they're a crock, would I have them over the Tories? Any day of the week. Crikey, so glad i've been away a while. What a muppet.

No, you're right. The child minder earned it, thus it wouldn't be in the pocket of the student on loans having this theoretical income of over 20k a year mooseface suggests. http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-finance-calculator 70k of debt was a figure i plumped from thin air, if they do well they could end up paying over 100k. So, err you got it wrong with that student having an income of over 20k a year given it's gone to the child care providers and her actual income is much less. You're batting is totally missing the ball me dear. So, financing that education is how easy exactly? You're also neglecting to question whether children in poverty have been failed during the compulsory years. You're entitled to your beliefs, the same way people are entitled to disagree with them, when they can back it up and you fail to back yours up, thats when you might want to question those beliefs. Really? How do you work that out, are you suggesting that they had the choice of no employment or shit employment and because they chose the latter is was a bad choice? I have a 2:1 in Health and Social Care, I spent the summer working for minimum wage. My bad. You're just a poor excuse for a human being. There was nothing wrong with the idea of 50% of the population having a university education, it benefits society in more ways than just the financial aspect. However, if that is how you alone measure a productive society I'm afraid you're belief system is more than a little absurd. The jobs market, nothing to do with the global economic system?

Only the £260 goes to the child minder, not her and that she'll be in 70k worth of debt at the age of 40. Its not a problem solved, not in the slightest.

The kids from the council estate have to work much harder for those academic opportunities than those middle class families. Boring personal stuff if you're interested... Warning! The following content is NOT WORK SAFE. Click the Show button to reveal. I would disagree, more so because I grew up on an underclass estate. I came out of school with no GCSE's and was pregnant at 17. What i did note as i've looked back on formal education is that i was stereotyped and pigeon holed from the start. I'm sure many teachers would disagree and it would be interesting to hear their explanation. The children from the horrid side of town were put in two classes, and the more affluent address, in different classes. I was a troublesome kid, teachers hated me as i was that unruly. I came from a house where occasionally me and my sister were on the rob for pop bottles to exchange if we wanted to eat that night. At 13 I went to live with an abusive relative, it would be nothing for me to be treated like a slave (I'm not talking kid tantrum here, i'm talking being woken at 5am to cook breakfast, do the laundry/dishes ect before school, shopping after school ect) not ideal but preferable to being at the maternal home. I lost my strong scally accent, I loved school as it was a safe environment and the teachers were amazing, I thrived. I was beaten until i was unconscious when i was 15 and was informed i had to go back to my mums or go in care. I went back to my mum and back to that first school, only now i had no accent, my forwarded school report was fantastic, i was placed in the form group that the posh kids were all in. Why was it that now I was a viable student who could actually attain something that i was placed in classes where there were less disruptive pupils, why was it that now I was able to formulate a constructive discussion with a teacher without them wanting to just bin me off, and most of all, why wasn't i given this opportunity straight away? Of that first class i was in, i am the only one who even picked up a couple of GCSE's. The lads ended up on the dole or in factories and the girls became pregnant, one or two have since picked up a couple of child care qualifications. I read on facebook the other day of another passing her basic computer literacy test, how sad is that? I mean genuinely sad, these people should have had more. Why is it that those children from the west of town never got much of a chance to escape the cycle of poverty, yet most of the ones from the east side all went to uni? It can't all be down to them posh kids trying harder?

Indeed, the same could be said that if a child isn't given the opportunity to try at school their options would be limited?

I wouldn't expect much in that way from huge companies, but i would for the smaller ones. I was reflecting back to school leaves of 20 years ago getting on a YTS scheme and those that are leaving now and doing modern apprenticeships. The acceptable standard of education to get on such courses has increased dramatically. People in poverty do not have the free will those who are more affluent have, they are restricted by their circumstances, show me any 16 year old on a council estate that will have the same life chances a child from a middle class family?

Education isn't just about what is learnt academically or on schemes. It's much more intrinsic then picking up the odd qualification here and there. This Utopian society you think is factual seems to only exist in your Tory like fantasies.

I trust low paid workers more than i trust high paid politicians, business men ect. Edit, i would also like to question how those mates kids aquired those tradesmen opportunities? Dare i question that its a more who you know not what you know system going on there?

I look forward to the day when people like you are getting shoved around by a low skilled person on low skilled pay whilst the owner of your nursing home is absolutely raking in the extortionate fees your estate pays. You know what i mean, having them frustrated low skilled uneducated workers acting out their resentment and frustration on your feeble old body, it's like, errr reaping what you sew an all that. ETA - Wanker.

All of my girls had kits, I've got a cracking picture of all 3 of them in the white away kit of around 2003 think it was. The youngest being about 4 months at the time. Do it Paulie, you look back at pictures and you know what kid it was because you recognise the kit for whatever year. I was yesterday informed I was the greatest mum ever, all it took was a £40 xbox game. My word of advice, you don't have to do much, and you can buy their love. I've also not seen the child since 4pm yesterday. Win/Win.

Johnny Matthis - when a child is born.

Late to the party as always, hope things are getting easier, Bob? I've just caught up and read the whole of the thread, and not knowing the outcome i was going to quote the post which has a list of things you were planning on doing, all for the benefit of your wife and maybe one for you. My reply to that post was to sack the lot of it off and become a selfish bastard. Seriously. I couldn't believe how much effort you were willing to put in and i sat there thinking, hang on, what is she doing for you? The thing is, after reading the rest of the thread, that advice i was going to put forward still stands, become selfish. Prioritise your needs. You really do only have your daughter to look out for, and so long as you do right by her, that's all that counts. You don't need to be in the same house to be a dad, you need to be there for her and do your best, because ultimately that's all you can do, your best. You do need to increase your social circle, boredom is awful. When my marriage ended i was a single mum of 4 with no friends and almost no extended family. I had to start from scratch (didn't help that I loathed the school gate mums) I took up camping, started going back to the footie, I went on singles nights, not to meet men, but to meet other people. It was hard initially, but once i found my feet I was busy most weekends. If you're still at the house but trying to stay out of each others way, forget what was said earlier in the thread, take up the gym or an activity class - i'd recommend kick boxing, i loved it. It also left me too tired to think when my head hit the pillow, so instead of laying there with a million and ten things going around my head I'd sleep. Wish you well, mate.

I've shared that pain far too many times than i care to recount. One fine example - lifting a lasagna out of the oven with my bare hand, totally forgetting to put the oven glove on, the very thought of having to cook a whole new meal was not an option so I carried on burning the flesh off my fingers rather than drop the thing. I slept with my hand in a bucket of cold water that night. No, i didn't wet myself.

RIP pigs. Congratulations Remmie! x

Sorry, i thought you were referring to the child protection issue clangers mentioned. I agree with HS, they must have been thick as pig shit, but I can sort of understand it, the only analogy i can use is that code you have with mates "if i die - get in my room and remove the contents of the drawer under my bed / internet search history ect.

Yes it would have been treated different by the media, but that doesn't mean the people have to be sheep and follow their lead. I pity her, the same way i'd pity a woman on my estate who had dealt the shit she had. Yes she had a silver spoon to some extent but her life certainly wasn't perfect, and i'd expect she'd have given up that life in a heart beat to have had the up bringing many others would have had only to still have her family in one piece. Why would a care order be needed, are the kids at risk? To what end? I did type out a long post about how suicide isn't that simple, feelings of family ect, but edited all, I think this is sufficient - You're a prick. Who knows, I'd like to think it was an accident, not an oops i fell over and this landed in my arm, but a shit day, one off, the same way most people probably get pissed. Whatever way you look at it, drugs included - it's an incredibly sad situation for all, even her.