Andy G

You can choose players form different eras, but you have to have a minimum of 2 from each era. The first era is from year dot to about 1979, then the 80's then the prem, so it is a load of old bollocks anyway. The positions shown are just 4 midfielders, not left right and centre. Mine was: Banks Cohen Adams Moore Pearce Best Gascoigne Souness Barnes Dalglish 'Dixie'

How about because they were directly responsible for loss of life due to making changes to the ground that made entry for the emergency services impossible, not having basic first aid equipment and not having a valid safety certificate (which would have been refused due to the above anyway). I hope those bastards go bankrupt, and they can take United and the whole city of Sheffield with them for all I care.

Obviously know what you are saying, but the thread is set up to determine what a legend is. The problem is that we have so many. Is Keegan a legend? Owen? Many people think Owen is not by the evidence above, but he outscored Keegan by a mile over a longer period, yet if Keegan was up there, many would have gone for him (me too - he was my first hero). The whistle at the side of my post was deliberate:laugh:

You are preaching to the converted. I am saying that is how the rest of the country see us. They do not differentiate who are from Liverpool and who are not, nor who are Liverpool supporters, or even English.

Am I the only one that feels that Dudek is a legend? Winning the European Cup single handedly isn't what it used to be then. :whistle:

I don't want to stereotype them. I want to expose them, with evidence. No need for stereotypes.

Gentlemen, I can confirm that I am sincere. You may not agree with me, but I am 100% Red from a good Red family and enough front line experience myself to be entitled to my say. I am aware that some of the above will not be everybody's thoughs, but they are not so far off the mark, so how could it be a wind-up? Thanks Dave for your comments, much appreciated.

Today is the 22nd anniversary of Heysel, and my heart goes out to the families of those who lost their lives. I always feel a bit down on this day, but this year it is worse and that is due to the events of Athens. I have been embarrassed a number of times over the last few years about being a Red. The trashing of Old Trafford was a disgraceful act of vandalism, the Alan Smith Ambulance incident makes me feel sick and there have been other reported incidents too, often told with an air of victory about them. It is now time to face up to the fact that some of our supporters are scum. I am fully aware that this has been the case for a long time. I am also fully aware that every other club has some supporters that are scum, but the time for trying to protect is over. The time for hiding behind the self-given ‘greatest supporters in the world’ tag has gone. Why? I’ll tell you why. 96 people died at Hillsborough 18 years ago. We have still not heard all the evidence in a British court because of a cover up that included the press reporting and the 3.15 cut off time set by the coroner. We still do not have justice, nor do we have the support of the British people. Imagine how the public would react to find out that its government had lied, fabricated evidence, lost critical evidence and even suppressed the tabling of vital evidence in the courts, just for its own convenience. Imagine if the British public found out that there had been a cover-up in this country to JFK proportions. There would be an outcry. The government would be brought down. Heads would roll and criminal charges, even perjury, would be made. The whole country would follow the trials in which senior politicians, aides and advisors would be publicly humiliated with the exposure of every lie. Well, ladies and gentlemen, that lie has been told. That cover-up has happened. That evidence has been fabricated. But the public is not in outcry. Instead, both Labour and Conservative governments who have been party to such corruption have gone about their business unchallenged. The Public as a whole are sad that 96 people died, but they think that Scousers are just wingers who revel in being victims and whom just stick together and back each other no matter what. This is why the country is not up in arms at the actions of their government, because we have no sympathy. Part of the reason is that some of our fans are scum. Liverpool fans were directly responsible for Heysel, where 39 innocent people lost their lives. The chants of ‘Justice for the 39’ from other clubs just goes to show how little they comprehend and what little sympathy we have. We al know that there were contributory factors to Heysel, but if there had not been a charge, it would not have happened. Lets hold our hands up to this. Once we have done this, we should address another issue, that of the supporter today. Robbing tickets from other fans is not acceptable. Knowingly buying forged tickets is not acceptable (I would say that there is likely to be very few who knew their tickets were forgeries though) and certainly charging gates is unacceptable. With behaviour like this, it is too easy for the ‘same old Scousers’ line to be taken. We all know it is a minority, but this minority directly effected our quest for Justice, this minority caused the deaths of 39 people at Heysel, and this minority that lead to football fences being put up in grounds, without which, the deaths of 96 people at Hillsborough would not have happened. Did you hear what I said? Football hooligans were responsible for Hillsborough. Not just Liverpool ‘fans’, but all football hooligans. If a man puts a road mine on the M1 and detonates it randomly, he is just as guilty of he crime if it happens to blow up a car or not. The seriousness of the crime is the same whether he blows up a car or not. Only the effect is different depending on the timing. And that is the key. Timing. If you act like a hooligan today, then it is the same crime as 30 years ago. I say you are equally responsible for the death of 39 + 96 people and you are scum. If you enter the ground without a ticket (potentially putting other supporters lives at risk, then I say you are putting people in danger and you are scum. If you rush gates trying to get in then I say you are putting people in danger and you are scum. Now is the time for self-policing. Lets not put up with this sort of behaviour any more. We can all blame UEFA for the farce in Athens, and they are certainly not innocent at Heysel, but they will always deny and since they are the authority, a win is unlikely (although we must lobby them). Instead lets accept that UEFA are cunts, Police cannot be relied upon and some of our own fans are cunts. Lets grass up the pricks. Video footage to the Police (not on U-TUBE). Lets get rid of them, perhaps then our quest for justice might get a little sympathy form the rest of the country, and that may have a political impact They have been screwed by their government every bit as much as we have – they just don’t realize it yet. PS. Another criticism of our community is that we always back each other up. The grief over Jamie Bulger was there for all to see and the whole country was with us. The support of Ken Bigley and Michael Shields has received criticism. Bigley should not have been there – it was a risk he knew and how do we know Shields is innocent? Fair comment, but still the sense of support for all things Liverpool is a great thing that should never be thrown away, no matter what others say about it.

I too have booked tomorrow off. I will be pissing alot of Germans off in Frankfurt by singing all the way through the game in an Irish pub as I did the semi's. A few pints of Newcastle Brown and a few bacardi and cokes should see me bladdered by gong home time regardless of the result. The best thing though is the outside telly, which enables my wife and baby daughter to share the experience and see just what a twat I am during big matches.

The one thing that may be in our favour is that he is German, and all the Germans wanted Bayern to win - even if they hate them. AC Milan knocked them out and the whole of Germany is behind Liverpool for this reason. Lets hope he is one of them.

I much prefer it when all our players, officials and managers keep their mouths shut, no matter what people say about us.

Raffa said something in his interview about Robbie that made me question if he was going anywhere. http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N155900070513-0749.htm .tv: Is there any indication of what's next for Robbie Fowler? Raffa: I told him our idea but we didn't talk about his future because his future right now is Charlton and AC Milan. What would Raffa's idea be if it were not to stay on as coach? I hardly think his ide would be that he should play for xxxxx.

When someone starts talking real Shite, West Ham fans now call them a Lawro.

Tony Blair has today revealed that he will resign as leader of the country in June. Is it really that long since he was elated when he came to power. That was the beginning of May 1997 and I remember dancing around my room when it was confirmed. How times have changed. The following day, still somewhat hung over, I found out from Liverpool FC that I along with 3 friends would not be getting a ticket for the away leg of the European Cup Winners Cup Semi Final against Paris St. Germain. There was no real reason for this decision as we had been away in Europe before and were members of the European Travel Club that Liverpool had at the time (you had to be members to get tickets). No, the reason we were given was that we were not going on the official Liverpool Trip that left Speke on the day of the match, gave you an hour in Paris, took you to the game, and then straight back to Speke afterwards, all for a fee of 290 quid. I was living in Surrey at the time, and it was both cheaper and quicker for me to get to Paris than it was to Speke. We had already booked our hotel for 3 nights, ferry and car and the whole thing cost us 70 quid each. I wrote to Liverpool explaining the situation, but it was a ‘security’ issue. I wonder if they still have the fax where I attached a photocopy of my arse. We went to Paris anyway and tickets were available for the Liverpool end from HMV in Paris on the day of the match. We were all so livid that we never bothered and watched it on French TV in our hotel. At that time, I had a season ticket for 21 years. I had been to near as dammit all games home and away for 10 of those years. In the 10 years of away games, I wrote to Liverpool on numerous occasions complaining about ticket allocations, especially for derby games, and although I am sure they never got the idea from me, I suggested a computerized system for tracking who had been to which games and allocating tickets accordingly. Time and again though, I got the same replies. I wonder if they still have the fax on record where I photocopied my hand giving them the ‘V’ sign. My Dad started the Liverpool Supporters Club Derby Branch with a bloke called Derek Igoe back in 1974. It was the first Liverpool Supporters Club outside of Liverpool. We had a mini-bus and a couple of cars going to all home games, and either one or two cars to all aways at that time. In ’97, I had not had a holiday my whole working life (except for European aways) because I used them all up going to Brighton on a Wednesday night in the FA Cup, or Anfield on a Monday morning to pick up tickets for the Carlisle game in the cup. First come first served at the time – living in Derby (or London) did not stop me. We had a great bunch of lads, most of whom were exiled Scousers or their offspring, and then in April ’89, we lost one of ours. I know for a fact that a number of us were close to giving up after that, but none of us did. It was in our blood. A year before the PSG game, Liverpool introduced the International Supporters Club. As we saw it, you paid 8 pounds to get a card to say you were a Liverpool supporter and a load of advertising from the Souvenir Shop. We didn’t need a card (except for our European Travel Club card) as we already had our Season Tickets. When you are spending your salaries on Liverpool, another 8 quid is not worth it, so only a few obliged. Derek Igoe, who started the Derby Branch with my Dad, was diagnosed with cancer at around this time. He was a lovely bloke and I think of him regularly to this day. Seeing him in the final weeks hurt deeply as I had only ever known going to Anfield with him and he always looked after me. He died a few months later. I know that I cannot blame Liverpool FC for their timing, and we were still livid from the PSG piss take, but the day after Derek died, we got a letter from Liverpool telling us that because we did not have 25 members of the International Supporters Club, we were no longer a recognized branch. This was the final straw for me and for others too. Good Reds who were home and awayers giving it all up. We had been through Hillsborough, given evidence and it came down to this. So sad. Rick Parry joined Liverpool in ‘97, although I cannot blame him for the PSG tickets or the Derby Branch incidents. His career and mine have gone in different directions since then. I moved abroad and am now married to the most wonderful person on the planet – and I had to search the planet to meet her. Rick has stayed at home and gone to the games. Neither of us has had to worry about tickets for important matches like I used to. I have always liked him. He seemed to do things ‘The Liverpool Way’, keeping a low profile and opening his mouth only when required, as did John Smith before him. In the last 10 years, Tony Blair’s career has been going downhill fast. He has lied and cheated and sucked up to the moneymen without giving a toss to the grass roots. He has sold his sole (or New Years Honours anyway) and people that held out so much hope when he was elected are now against him to the point where he has resigned. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Far be it from me to compare the careers of Blair and Parry, but doubts started creeping in about Blair over the Iraq war and the lack of evidence. I was sure that there was something wrong and my fears were proven to be correct over the next four years. The Gerrard transfer saga seemed fishy to me too, but I had always loved (and still love) David Moores and had every faith in Parry too. Why then would our captain, after lifting the European Cup and telling the world he was ready to sign a new contract, put in a transfer request saying that Liverpool had not seemed too keen. If memory serves me right, Mr. Parry was in Barbados or somewhere at the time. After hating Gerrard with a vengeance for his actions, he withdrew his transfer request because he could not leave the club he loved so much. Gerrard looked stupid. Liverpool looked stupid. Perhaps the reasons given were valid, and that is Liverpool did not make Stevie feel wanted. That was two years ago, but the doubts have been in the back of my mind ever since. 10 years since I gave up my season ticket, and I miss it so much. I miss going to the match with my younger brother, I was not there for my Nephews first match and I have yet to take my wife. Talking to her the other day about our future, we discussed the possibility of moving to England in the next 4 years for our daughters’ education. She suggested that I should put our names down for season tickets at the new stadium so that we could all go as a family. I was so excited by this and all the reasons why I gave up in the first place went away. Going week in week out again, this time with my Wife, Daughter, Dad and Brother. I dreamt of it that night. I am not entitled to a ticket to Athens. If I came across a ticket, I would sell it at face value to someone more deserving than me as it always angered me when I was a regular and people less deserving got tickets when I didn’t. So why did I become so angry when I saw the allocation by Liverpool FC (although my Brother is OK and that is the main thing). I am angry with UEFA too, but that is a standard thing. I will tell you why I felt so angry. Never in the history of Football has a crowd won a major competition until 2005 in Istanbul. Our new Owners can see it, our Manager can see it and our players can see how great we are and what makes us special (I am using ‘we’ because of my former glories, not as the armchair I was forced to become). Even the media, other players and supporters comment on it. So when we get to Athens, our 12th man (or his legs anyway) will still be in the pub. I am sure that we will get loads of tickets as usual, but they will all be at increased prices from the black market and ticket agencies. Furthermore, I am angry because a potentially fair (as it can be) system is in place in the form of a fan card that records who has been to which matches. Quite simple 40+ matches collect your ticket in Monday. 35-40 on Tuesday, 34 Wednesday, 33 Thursday etc. until sold out. But no. Then, in a ballot system, not giving ST holders priority is stupid, and having a ballot for all those who qualify (whether intending to go or not) is just increasing the black market and downright sinful. One of the worst things about it all though, is that my anger from 10 years back is revisited. The incompetence of the Ticket Office is as much in Liverpool’s history as our European Cup Victories. I know a number of good Reds who have been lost due to; ahem, administrational incompetence and now I am sure that there will be more. Worse still. I, and many other are still deeply, deeply hurt by the events of 18 years ago. But we are not hurt like those involved in any other disaster because they have not had a newspapers pointing the fingers at survivors. They have not had their own (successive) governments deny the families of the victims to have their basic civil rights due to arbitrary judgements, although they were not arbitrary, but coldly calculated so that those responsible would not be brought to book. We still have to live with all this every day of our lives, the injustice of it all, and then what we witnessed on that day, and then grieving for those we lost. It all gets too much sometimes. Only a few weeks ago, Mackenzie was on Question Time and said that he could stand by the Ticket-less Fans statements. This is pointing the finger still, at us, for going to a football match without tickets. The general public still think that Liverpool fans caused Hillsborough because we turned up without tickets, and then you, Rick Parry, encourage the same thing to happen again. Can you see where I am coming from Sir?. Tony Blair promised so much (including a legitimate scrutiny of Hillsborough) and failed to deliver on all points. Rick Parry, you too promised so much, but for you not to understand that someone who goes home and away with Liverpool will still go to Athens with or without a ticket is ridiculous. And if you do understand that, why have you allocated tickets in such a way that only the black market will benefit. What about the safety of our supporters. I am very sad to say, but it is time that Mr. Rick Parry resigned. The doubts I had over the Gerrard affair have, like with Blair and Iraq, proved to be right. For the benefit of Liverpool Football Club, the safety and sanity of its supporters and the common good, please go. Now.

Dave, You have this spot on. The guy has to go. What with this and playing on 15th. Not acceotable.

Carter has to be the worst player I've ever seen in a red shirt, so he has to be in there

I apologise if you think this should be on the general forum, but it is football related. I am trying to get a soft copy of "Kopite" from the echo in his win, lose and draw poses. Any ideas?

Good shout DT. Ask me again in a few years though, there may be some changes to my thinking by then. Unfair to have Dalglish as a manager up against Paisley and Shanks, but not to have him as a player against Keegan, Rush, Fowler and Owen. Then again, unfair on Keegan, Rush Fowler and Owen to have been put up against Dalglish too. :-)

Yeah, a little harsh lads. In answer to your questions: City: 4-1 (Heskey 3, Carragher 1) Chelsea 2:0 (Owen and Baros) Fowler great reception - I hope and expect so

If Rooney really is as good as we are being told, Jermain Janus must be some player too to have beaten him to the young player of the year award. I thought that the only young player we had in the premier league was Ruiny

That short corner pissed me off, because the resulting corner cost me 50 quid, but I do agree with the general consensus on Okocha. Love to watch him though.

Everybody is going on about how they are ashamed about the chant about Rooneys mother, and I feel the same too. Does anyone feel any sympathy therefore, towards a certain Eric Cantona, since he was given personal abuse about his mother before he reacted by defending her honour, and due to mitigating circumstances, did he get too harsh a punishment?

Wishing death to one of our ex-players. You must excuse my ignorance, but what is that all about?

I know I am being a little perdantic, but Kenny never attended all the funerals after Hillsborough, that would have been inpossible, however no funeral took place that Kenny could have attended, but chose not to - he was always at another one (time clashes and all that). The bloke is a legend as a player and a manager, but more importantly, as a man.

Ian Rush has criticised him about it. I am glad that he has publically stated that he hates us, I want to be as far away from him line of thinking that you can possibly get. And Kenny is all the more a hero for hating everything about United.