razor

I applaud pro-activity, and also direct action. Lots of people write stuff on message boards, but you got out there on a Sunday, so well done. But it's more information I seek. Is there any way you can give us more information on what was said?

Nice one, Carlos. Liverpool could do with a bit more of your unwavering support. But I bet you still have a sneaky look at the Wigan result too....

Ah, leave the wee lad alone. He came with an open hand of friendship and a request for basic advice. It’s not his fault he comes from the same country as those arrogant carpet-bagging leeches. And George Bush. And Donald Rumsfeld. And the Ku Klux Klan. And New Kids on the Block. And Richard Nixon. And Mark Chapman. And a whole slew of television programmes called “World’s Wildest / Biggest / Strangest / etc’ that basically use only American footage, so are hardly the “world’s” anything. And films which rewrite history. I think your query was more than adequately answered by NN, but there’s an old adage about achievement being 10% inspiration (in other words, as you say in your country, blessed by God with talent), and 90% perspiration (in other words practice). But basically, as you’re American, you should be a goalie. Incidentally, Carlos, if you’re having trouble getting to sleep, there’s a better method than thinking about football. There’s a few people on this site who’d be better placed than me to advise you. But, to actually address your thread title, I think the answer is "aggressive global marketing". Which was invented, refined and perfected by....

There is a salient point to be made about Bascombe's deliberate misrepresentation of the situation. Bleeding a point about a "fan" holding a placard into a point about Liverpool fans is typically low. Journalistic integrity means nothing to people like him. And he claims to be the same "onside" local lad. You wouldn't be proud of yourself, would you?

PAYE = Pay As You Earn. Honestly, students!

1. The Greek lad - 100% commitment 2. Lucas - up and down, and all around. Never afraid to look for it. 3. Reina - solid I can't believe so many people thought Degan had anything but a stinker. He seemed to be looking over to the bench for a little 'tumble' sign from the off. Aside from that, you've got to say we tried.

Gerry and the Pacemakers never sung that...

Modern football is horrible: a heavily-branded entertainment "experience". When The Kop got a McDonalds, I packed in for a while, giving my ticket to a mate. I came back. We've got corporate incidental music, electronic advertising hoardings, and (thank goodness it's only at away games) Smashy and Nicey MCs. Sky stole our game and sold it back to us at a hugely inflated price. (Ah, that rings a bell...) We should have stuck together at the time and said, "no". We didn't. Apathy has resulted in Tim Lovejoy. We reap what we sow. BUT I LOVE LIVERPOOL AND ALWAYS WILL.

There is far more optimism within this thread than I thought there would be to be honest. Optimistic appraisal - we'll do it Realistic appraisal - we'll give it a good go, but the challenge is massive Pessimistic appraisal - we're shite, sack Rafa "Though I walk through the valley of death, I shall have no fear ...." Or to give that paraphrased psalm a more modern angle: "When you walk through a storm, hold your head up high ..... "

Are you implying that the present squad should not be defined as "footballers", or that it has been horribly Photoshopped? I just breathed a sigh of relief they got the drinks bottles in. Beats those trophies any day of the week. They're unsymmetrical and everything.

At the moment, the difference between first and third in the league is 3 points. Trust me, I ain't gobbing off. I asked if anyone thought we could win it (my mate did, and I have to admit it, his optimism rubbed off), and it's amazing that a little optimism in this thread has cheered me up too.

Logic says early-80s points tally will win it judging by the results so far this season. Liverpool are crippled by doubt - Kuyt looks terrified every time the ball comes near him. Lucas is a man mountain in by book to have come through the groans and criticisms he took last year and the early part of this year. I don't want to sound like an American business guru, but there is a truth in positive thinking bringing about positive results: confidence and all that. Maybe, with a few tweaks to the team, a positive atmosphere in the stands, and the luck of the bounce, we can string a few results together, and push for that early-80s points tally. Do you remember that wave of optimism in the ground during the run-in last year? We KNEW we would win. Confidence from the stands, confidence on the pitch. The irony of us not dropping points because we didn't play isn't lost on me (!!!), but what it did show is that the other teams around us are no great shakes either. Chelsea have been poor quite a lot this season. Arsenal are soft. I don't think they're unreasonable observations. No, judging by the replies here, there's quite a few!

I've tried, but I just can't spot the Jason Donovan songs in this post.

A bit sulky at the moment because he has to play on his own feeding off scraps. O#*n was like that: you can't enjoy playing football getting three touches in 90 minutes, even if one of them is a goal. He needs a foil. Why do people think he'll leave? No way will he walk away from Liverpool, no matter where we finish! Media hype rubbish. They'd like it, but it won't happen!

He won us that final. MOM definitely. Glad you brought it up. Discussing it recently, a lad I know was going on about Molby in that final. For me MacDonald ran the show, but he was having none of it. Actually, a bit of hyperbole there: he didn't win it for us; but he was the best player on the pitch.

My mate is one of life's eternal glass-is-half-empty types. However, after studying the league table, he says, "D'you know? I think we can still win this." Rafa recently guaranteed 4th place, but has now added that we should look even beyond that. Not playing at the weekend (and therefore not getting beaten) has really boosted morale amongst elements of the fanbase. Yes, Stevie is still sulking a bit, the defense looks creaky (do we miss Sami more than we miss Alonso??), and Torres' body language isn't exactly positive, but AT LEAST WE DIDN'T DROP POINTS THIS WEEKEND. Chelsea are poor, Arsenal soft, and that bunch have the worst team for 15 years. "And now you're gonna believe us, and now you're gonna believe us....!"

Reina Lucas Carra (not assured, but commitment made up for it)

Liverpool fans might like to note that Bradford City fans have also taken up the mantle: [http : //]ww w[dot]thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/4706091.Outrage_over_petrol_bomb_claim_on_City_fire/ [http : / /] bcafc.livewwware.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50407&sid=38ce075a0d15f5da2136327c6b3a7af1 I particularly like the bloke emailing the editor of the Sports Journal (based in Alabama) to tell him that the 1963 Baptist Church Massacre was a conspiracy, which, all things considered, is on a par with their outrageous lies. (If anyone can correct these posts to include URLs I'd be grateful!)

Followers of this thread may like to know a couple more contacts within the Sports Journal organisation: Dr. T.J. Rosandich - tjrosant [at] ussa [dot] edu Dr Kelly Flanagan - flanagan [at] ussa [dot] edu I will also be forwarding the article to Bradford City websites. I am sure they will be as appalled as Liverpool fans are. The article is a disgrace, and although I don't expect an apology, I DO expect it to be removed. ww[w] [dot] thesportjournal.org/article/menaces-management-developmental-view-british-soccer-hooligans-1961-1986 And of course our friend Dr Arthur Ogden's contact details are the first post in this thread.

AngryofTuebrook: 100% endorsed from here. Look forward to the formal invitation to write a 3,000-word rebuttal which will be "considered for publication" in their rag. As I pointed out to Ogden, this is what you get if you allow people to write about a culture of which they have absolutely no understanding. I make a serious point when I say that Liverpool fans in the 1980s wouldn't wear ski-masks because it would make them look crap. They spent a lot of money on clothes to look good. Would these Americans understand this cultural mentality? It is how so many arrests were made in Britain and so few in Italy: see The Daily Mirror's front page the following week. Clearly visable faces. The Liverpool fans did not wear masks, it is simply not part of their culture. It is absolutely the culture of Italian “ultras” to cover the face. Most football fans with even a cursory knowledge of football hooliganism know this. Anyway, your reply is excellent.

Some of the observations on this thread are deeply thought-provoking. In academic circles they are called "primary" sources of information: people who were actually there are writing about their experiences. What these American writers have done is read a few articles, DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENT them to fit their needs, then cite the source as a legitimate secondary source. I think there is an unacceptable level of inaccuracy in representing the Liverpool football fans as “urinating on the corpses and jumping around in celebration” with a cited reference to David Canter's book on hooliganism, when the reference in the Canter book actually says, “After the Heysel riot, an Italian newspaper carried reports of Liverpool fans urinating on the corpses, reports which were almost certainly untrue.” (Canter pg 109). CANTER WAS ACTUALLY MAKING THE POINT THAT THERE WAS HYSTERICAL EXAGGERATION AROUND AT THE TIME. Ironically, this is the part these Americans have picked up and changed to create hysterical exaggeration! IDIOTS! They have taken a quotation out of context and placed it in their "academic" article. It is poor beyond belief. I also think there is an unacceptable level of supposition in representing the Liverpool football fans as being “the ones wearing ski masks and carrying various weapons including, pick axe handles and clubs" with a cited reference to The Times, when the reference in The Times editorial actually says, “When masked men prowl the terraces, throwing iron bars, fire and glass at the police ... a living worthwhile sport is lost.” (The Times 30th May 1985 p13)? IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE TIMES WAS REFERRING TO JUVE ULTRAS!!! These people are idiots and don't seem at all worried about the hurt they have caused.

I agree with the above observations. The reasons for Heysel are complex and many: clearly too complex to be adequately addressed by these American "sociologists". But the inaccuracies of this publication cannot pass unchallenged. Urinating on and celebrating over the dead!? I wrote a long and detailed email to Dr Ogden, outlining the reasons why this article should be removed from public access. Amazingly, he is standing by its academic rigour, when clearly it is a shameful piece of sub-standard writing. He does his organisation no credit in doing so.

If you could link this to as many people as possible / other sites, we may get this sorted by sundown. I've got a link to a more balanced view of Heysel from a Juve fan, but I can't post it. from a Juve fan site long I'd like someone to email the link to Dr Ogden. He should read it. It seems better researched than his academic pals could manage. But it doesn't carry the weight of academia behind it, of course. I told him in my many emails to him that the lesson to be learned was to not commission pieces from people who have no cultural understanding of what they are writing about. He's not interested.

Fans of Liverpool FC might be interested to read the introduction to this academic study of football hooliganism in the 1980s. According to this distinctly under-researched piece, which was published under the auspices of Dr Arthur G Ogden, PhD, who is the Dean of Academic Affairs for the grandly titled United States Sports Academy in their publication Sports Journal, Liverpool fans urinated on and celebrated over the people they killed at Heysel. They apparently also wore ski-masks and carried pick-axe handles and clubs. Dr Ogden is not interested in correcting these errors, and is quite prepared to allow public access to the piece on the United States Sports Academy web site. The opening to the piece reads: No event illustrates the social phenomenon of "soccer hooliganism" more dramatically than the deaths of 39 Italian spectators at the European Cup Final between the Liverpool Football Club and the Italian team Juventus, played at Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium on May 29,1985 at the hands of soccer hooligans from Liverpool, England. After viewing film of the incident, Belgium authorities identified groups of Liverpool fans as those who instigated vicious attacks against the Italian fans, which in turn led to a stampede of people attempting to escape the violence. The Liverpool soccer hooligans were the ones wearing ski masks and carrying various weapons including, pick axe handles and clubs. The brutality of the event was further heightened by eyewitness accounts claiming the Liverpool soccer hooligans were urinating on the corpses and jumping around in celebration. In time, the main offenders were brought to trial and sentenced in a Belgium court. This is certainly not how I remember the events. Out of curiosity, I cross-referenced the sources used by the two authors AJ Hayley and Brian S Johnson and discovered that they had quite deliberately misrepresented the books and articles they had read. They wanted a dramatic opening, not wanting to consider the facts, which might get in the way. This is not the work of an anonymous internet blogger or messageboard poster, these are well-qualified academics writing for a published magazine in America. I have been in touch with Dr Ogden, the person who oversees the publication of the journal, and he is fully aware of the inaccuracies, but is not prepared to remove or even change the article. Maybe Liverpool fans who disagree with the stance of this magazine will be able to persuade him. His contact details are Arthur G Ogden, Dean of Academic Affairs, United States Sports Academy, 1 Academy Drive, Daphne, Alabama 36526. His phone number is 001-251-626-3303, Ext 7158. His email address aogden@ussa.edu