KevieG

That means a lot considering coming from one of the weakest posters here. The sum total of what I remember from you is a bit of name calling and sarcasm, remove yourself from the circle jerk and try a bit of independent thinking, you might even like it

Not far off it, United were a shambles and struggling. They were well beaten in Europe and failed to get out of their group in 2005. The league cup win was a big thing for them

remove VDS and Evra. As regards a base, we had Mickey Judas Owen(technically), Carra, Gerrard, Hyppia, Hamman, Finnan, Riise, Baros Arguably as good as what United had at the begining as 2004/2005, certainly not that far behind United, and way behind Cheslea.

Houllier spent more than Ferguson. Plus he was even worse than Rafa for spending on average squad players, 2 keepers in one day for 12 million?

Aaron Lennon would still be a great buy for 6-8 million.

If you go out and blitz the shit out of the 16 teams not part of the big four, you'll have a good chance of challanging for the league, as most of them don't have the quality to hurt you back. Ferguson knows this better than anyone seeing as he's closing in on his 10th :( title. Hopefully Rafa has picked up two things from Ferguson for next season, only buy in quality, don't over analyse the wigan and fulhams of this world. But I doubt it

pure class

I think people need to remember that Vidic and Evra were also brought in in 2005 and they have tramsformed the team, Ferdinand now has the strong man next to him which he needs and Evra is a fantastic player(who we had been linked with for about 3 years). Since January 2005 they have brought in pure quality to the first team, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Tevez, Nani, and Anderson. WE've been obsessed with bulking up the squad, they've been busy creating a new first team and spending about the same. The argument that they had a brilliant base to work from needs to be evaluated. They had Rooney, Ronaldo and Ferdinand of the current spine. At the end of 2004 their first team looked something like this. Roy Carroll Neville,Ferdinand,Brown,Heinze Ronaldo(old version)Fletcher/O Shea, Scholes, Giggs Rooney, Saha In short, all down to Ginsoak. The sooner he leaves the better

Who do you regard as Italy's top club? Juve or Milan? Juventus 27 titles, 2 European cups Milan 17 titles, 7 European cups.

He hasn't go the dicipline to play there and he's too old too learn now. Whoever plays next to him would be overun in lots of games.

Not sure if thats true. Same people have had same reservations for a long time. I could go into it and huge blame will fall on the manager then the usual suspects will start claiming the thread has been hijacked. My opinion is that the manager is to blame for a lot of it. Approach, tactics, transfers and belief. But its probably best not to go there. I would like to know are we sticking with 4-3-3 for the future and if thats where Rafa sees us going.

Very perceptiive point on Gerrard actually, never thought of that, he would excel there, could be our Ronaldo if you will. It would possibly suit him more than any other position. Plus i think its a lot easier to find a classy link/support player than a powerful, goalscoring inside right, or whatever the name you call that position Kuty occupies is. That and two new world class full backs and we'd be a decent outfit.

We're stuck bang in the middle of it. No goals in 4 years home or away, beaten every time. Thats relegation fodder territory

I kind of see your point, but I don't many of our fans would be agreeing were we top of the league and pasting everyone. This is simply the way the game is now, we either deal with it or stop following the sport. I see Patrick used 2005 as the halycon moment( i completely disagree, this was a time when an Abramovich backed Cheslea were setting league points records), and i think that kind of makes my point. We view these things from an LFC perspective, if we are judging these things, we could pick the first hundren thousand pound player(whoever that was?) or Trevior Francis(pretty sure he was the first million pound player), we even broke a couple of records with Rush, Beardsley and Collymore. If there was a tipping point it was Sky taking over, but we've benifitted as much as everyone else, we've just been badly run. The asshole factor off the pitch is certainly something thats increasing and thats something the manager can control within this club. I'd flog Riise for doing that.

Dominated us in terms of results I suppose. No goal in 12 hours of league football is a daming statistic. A lot of this "Controlling games thing" is media spin, using possesion and territory as barometers is something of a fallacy. Generally they can come to Anfield and pick us off with their superior attack, and outplay us at OT.

The first goal wasn't a set piece, there were several unforced errors leading up to it though, think Aurelio played a lazy ball out, Gerrard didn't track back, the mix up with dealing with thr cross. Personally I just don't think Rafa can manage United tactically as they are unlike any other team in Europe. They attack from all angles with pace and almost all of their players have goals in them. Evra is as much of a threat on the left as Giggs or Nani. Even Brown was bursting into the box to get on the end of a cross, big contrast to our full backs. Rafa tries to control games but against United thats very hard as they are so potent. I think the only way to get at them is by having superior technique and this is usually what catches them out in Europe, Lyon showed glimpses of this the last time and Roma and Barca will probably do so as well. For me, we need to find fast full backs with technique and a right winger with technique, then we might be able to compete with them. Plus the Jury is still out on Skrtel and Babel.

Yet we sit back and take it. As a club we are big enough to stick our oar in on this one. Complile the dossier of Rooney giving backchat over a six game period, it'll amount to at least 2 or 3 red cards, probably would for a lot of players but so be it. Do the same with Bennets inconsistencies. This is the only way to tackle this and its needs to be done by the club. If Rafa goes to town on a ref, and is threatened with censure, then provide 10 examples of how Ferguson has done worse in the last 2 years. There is no consistency, I have no problem with Mascherano getting sent off if the rule is being applied but its not.

He was badly rattled in the first half, no question, but wasn't helped by the defence or the casual/scared shitless midfield not doing their job. For example, Gerrard just let Brown stroll on into the box after losing possesion(if memory serves). Not good enough in a game as big as this, its the little things like that which win or lose games.

Luck is the easy answer, a cop out. Their dominance over us over a prolonged period has little to do with it.

I think Pepe was off his game, he made 3 or 4 great instinctive saves as he will always do as he is a great shot stopper, but the stuff where he had to think for second, like coming off his line or the botched throw were unlike him. Still in the top 2 keepers in the league and I'd put it down to a bad day at the office. Arebloa was also caught out once of twice, but he was firefigting at that stage and the midfield had collapsed.

Its a funny one alright. The normally unflapable Pepe is even affected. I think Gerrad and Carra are psychologically wounded from years of beatings at their hands. I remember when Gerrard came on the scene first and he didn't give a shit about coming up against them, flaking into Keane, always putting himself about. He's supposed to be a better player now, but I'm not sure. I think you could see that Mascher and Torres were not in the least bit intimidated by them, I hope that we can rectify this before a similar mindset sets in for them. All that said, our approach is terrible, last year they went down to 10 men at Anfield and went on and won the game. As soon as we went down to 10, we went into ourselves. Its as if we accepted defeat. Being down to 10 men is a disadvantage but not a fatal one. That was almost as disappointing as the Bennet thing. Rafa was sitting on the bench hardly moving, we were only one down. The fear factor when we play them is something that needs to be addressed. Its one thing Houllier really got right. He expected to beat United every time we played them.

"Riley decided the game, like we know he can do at Old Trafford. " Rafa needs to be at this shit. Don't refer to him as the referee, refer to the slimeball as Bennett, make it personal. "Bennett, as we know he can do at Old Trafford, applies the letter of the law to one team and not the other, we will be releasing a list of players who should have seen red, under the letter of the law from this game, tomorrow"

Got a brand new Sony Bravia on Saturday. It increased the pain. The capitulation in 99 in the cup at OT was also very sore point. I can't get it round my head how we also seem to concede really soft goals against them, Bruce, Pallister, Brown, Ferdinand, its like a broken record at this stage. Very frustrating.

Unfortunately Ken DeMange as as much hope as any of the others. Insua is crying out to be given a run, but I don't think he'll get a chance. Spearing, in the 4 or 5 games I've seen of him, looks a better player than Lucas, but I'd have to see him in the team. Doubt that will happen.

He didn't knock us off our perch though, George Graham did, or maybe David Moores. We were a spent force already entered into terminal deline by 93