Mascherano

Nice story this, becoming a dad last night to the imaginatively named Alberto Junior after playing well again. Does he have a song? Would be nice that. If he hasnt, i reckon the tune from madness would be cool. Moreno, Moreno, Alberto Moreno! Watch "Madness they call it Madness" on YouTube I'm sure you could make up a good one if this makes it past being the worst idea in forum history?

Got to agree with the freshened up starting line up mate. I had hope earlier on that we could integrate a few younger players, but I always suspected that Jurgen saw a pecking order involving experience. For example, i wanted Solanke in, but knew that I'd get Firmino every game, even when he would have 3 below par performances out of 5. I wanted Grujic over Wij or Can or Henderson but knew he would stick with the usual failures because they are the seasoned pros. Grujic did get a game, but in a weakened team or not from the start with a different tempo. That was that then, he is shit. Well, maybe not. It might be too early to say that the season is a right off, but some of the players we have surely must be finished here now. Klopp is to blame for alot of this. I've banged the drum that alot of these players are simply not up to playing in this gung ho manner. Game management? Making the most of what you actually have? I'm not best impressed with Klopp. Therefore, I'm not sure what we will actually see from the next game. I've been looking at your line ups and i agree that we have to make changes. I would approach it slightly differently as I think that TAA isnt really a right back. I'd have him in midfield replacing Henderson with Grujic and Coutinho with Milner at right back until we get Clyne back and soon Lallana, who will improve our midfield massively. Ward Milner Matip Gomez Moreno. Note to full backs. Do not leave gaps at the back. You are full backs not wingers. TAA High energy, cover the CBs Grujic Coutinho Salah OX Solanke I suspect that things will get EVEN WORSE before we see anything like that and i won't be holding my breath. I suspect that my fellow forumites will be critical of that, not good enough, i haven't seen enough of (insert name), but my predicted answer would be, why do you think that the usual suspects will improve?

I guess that i cant tell the future! Head says we will be bum fucked. Heart says we will get a depressing draw that doesn't improve our position in any way...... .....before being bum fucked by spurs at Wembley. I think I have morale issues. We could always get a defensive masterclass coupled with midfield dynamism and leadership that cures me I guess.

Fuera de aqui, hijo de puta.

No problem with your point of view mate. And i do understand your disappointment when our best players want to leave for clubs who have won things more than us in recent history. You seem to put alot into Henderson having been signed by The King. I just can't see any club putting in a bid for him, like a Manchester club, spurs or Chelsea or a Real or Barcelona where we would find out how much Hendo wanted the move vs staying with us.But I do hope im the victim of my comments today and he looks like a world beater at Newcastle!

How do you know what Henderson sees and wants?

I find that funny. A defence of Henderson that starts by casting doubt on Gerrard because he allegedly wanted to go somewhere else (and win leagues but who stayed) then talks about Henderson giving his "all" every game, whilst proposing that Henderson understands the values of the club?? Your thought processes and logic are alien to me.

If we were still winning European cups and leagues I might share your perspective.I don't think I need to rely on stats to show me that Henderson isn't club captain material, nor suited to being the midfielder with most defensive duties in the team, who's job, one would presume, would be to protect the goalkeeper and centre backs that appear in your post, or to offer a forward pass sufficient to improve the supporting conditions for the striker. For the record, we need a new centre half and a better forward who will convert more of their chances, but that doesn't change the fact that we also need a new club captain. I'm off to find a stat that tells me that Henderson is a shit house.

Well, we did concede 42 last season, and city were the nearest to us with 39.The bad news is that Chelsea conceded 33 and Spurs 26. Utd conceded 29 and have now, it seems to me, resolved the lack of goals issue that resulted in too many draws. We didn't score more goals than anyone above us either. The man city walloping is indicative of having no balance whatsoever. There was no evidence of a plan to cope with City after Mane went off. Where was the attempt to starve them of chances to at least keep it respectable? Or nick an equaliser? Top 4 last season was a gift, with Arsenal and Utd having stinkers. I don't see the upward trajectory myself. We will not come above both Manchester clubs, Chelsea or spurs this season. I guess time will tell and i can buy doughnuts for you if I'm wrong! Id like to be wrong, but I see the same old frailties every week.

I don't know about midgets, Henderson, Gomez and Can must be 6ft and Lovren well over 6ft and Matip rather tall. Good in the air? No I agree, dont think any of them are great but that's a problem we should have addressed.Are they good at dealing with physical 1v1 challenges either? Then what happens if they have no cover in position? Well, i think our goals against column answers that, and will continue to. Whilst we may not play like utd, our complete unwillingness to balance attack and defence means we will win many less ugly games, taking draws or losses unnecessarily, and they will gain points. I don't even think it's entirely necessary to clone utd or Chelsea, it's just that our particular way costs points with the players we have. We live it every week. This thread is a relief thread more than anything. We didn't lose or draw so thank fuck for that, but it was bloody close and if Vardy did something other than his normal smash it down the middle penalty, the mood could have been a whole lot different. I don't see the point in claiming that Leicester were lucky or the referree was a wanker, because the way we play, with the players we have, means that we will be potentially exposed to the same risks every week.

Not sure about that tk. Of course he engages with the players, but the substitution of Milner for Can wasnt an effective tactical move to shut out the game, it was to replace a tiring player. The full backs didnt hold back with their forward runs and we didn't move to a more compact shape. I seem to recall Lovren and Matip in the opposition half actually but I wouldn't swear to it. I disagree with other posters totally. How anyone can doubt Tottenham's ability to effectively manage games is beyond parody Manchester United, Chelsea, and Spurs can manage games. They can be pretty and they can win 1-0 when they play like crap. That's why they'll do great. City love to go forward like we do but have better balance and midfielders that go forward and add to defensive stability. Without a run of superb form, we will come below all of them this season and fight with Arsenal for 5th. One of the usual suspects mentioned man u holding on against southampton. What they failed to mention was, it wasn't with opposition players running towards their own goal with but one defender between the attacker and the goal keeper.

It means that we play in exactly the same way, taking risks going forward with the same cover at the back, regardless of the score or the minute in the game.We play with little to no tactical adjustment. We do not manage the opposition through the medium of our own tactical display.

If the system isnt the problem but the players that play in it, surely there is an arguement to say that you should modify the system to fit the players you have? I thought we had some excellent moments but we play without game management, so the pendulum swings and on Saturday it swung in our favour, with a penalty save. Happy to win? Fuck yeah. Encouraged that we have learnt a thing? Fuck no.

I think that the lack of transfers has become the major focus when our set up is the first problem to deal with. I simply do not accept that our defenders are capable of playing this brand of heavy metal football. Yes, we could have signed better defenders, but in this system, which appears non negotiable, you really do need top top defenders and midfielders, as one or two lapses in concentration or lack in ability leads to clear cut opportunities against us. We dont have anything like enough ability to play the way we do. There is no game management like united, Chelsea or spurs, who understand the need to be resolute AND score goals. We have the players who could still score a lot of goals even if we do not throw caution to the wind defensively. I don't think that persisting with the way we play is sustainable. Heads are dropping, self fulfilling prophecies are playing out in front of our eyes week after week and the psychological damage to the players, who cannot function in the way they are sent out to play, is palpable. The full backs playing as wingers and offering less protection. We cannot deal with lumped balls against central defenders who cannot handle physicality and dont have the levels of concentration to deal with these situations, as proved week after week, with ineffective protection and leadership from a midfield lacking Lallana and a fully fit Coutinho and Henderson offering protection? The reaction from this lot is normal. They are being sent out to do something they cant, in a way that makes it more difficult for them. I am coming around to the idea that Klopp wont win anything here. I am looking for Klopp to adapt here, give us a formation and instructions where we have a better chance of winning games with the players we have. Klaven and Lovren are our reality for now, so play in a way that gives them half a chance. I believe that Henderson should be dropped, but something tells me that Klopp wont do it as he is club captain. He sees players like Grujic and Solanke as young boys, behind those who are established, and they won't get the chance with the likes of Mane and Salah to help turn this around. If we carry on doing what we have been doing, with the players who consistently let us down, we will get a known outcome, and I would sack Klopp for it. The chips are down. Let's see how Klopp deals with it. Of course, i want him to succeed.

I've been banging the Grujic drum all season and now I get my wish! I hope Solanke starts too. I don't want to see a totally new side as I want to give these two in particular a real chance, not a totally new team devoid of rhythm and understanding as that will make it harder for them. Let's just hope we get some solid citizens like Klaven and Lovren at the back. That'll do their confidence the world of good. Oh, and The captain of course, to really show some leadership and quality.

Well, i look at the midfield of Hen do, Wij and Can and consider their overall performances this season and i think that they have largely underperformed, except in the arsenal game where they faced cowardice a level even below their capability. I don't believe that adding Grujic makes us more of a reserve side. He is younger and hasnt played as much as i would have liked, because i believe that he will develop into a player beyond any of those 3, and i see little value in persevering with the so called first team in this area as we will get what we are used to getting, which isn't good enough over all, looking good when we click going forward and hiding when we are under pressure or looking for some inspiration. I suspect that he will be overlooked for the tried and trusted (but the tried and failed for me). As for Solanke, i believe that his mobility and physicality with his ability in the air make him the right option for a game like this. Again, a young player who I think will likely only get a substitutes appearance, but a perfect player to develop in situations like this. He should start and find a groove, not get a few minutes chasing the game or when we are wasting seconds with a lead. He seems to have taken Origis role in the squad already and he needs a chance. It is unrealistic to play Firmino every game, he certainly has some stinkers if he is not managed appropriately or played on the wing.

Klopp has made a point about players not playing every game. The reason I suggested those two is because Solanke offers presence and good movement and is very good with his head, and Grujic offers a real presence also with a higher chance of scoring, imo of course, than the likes of Can, Wij or Hen do. I quite like aRdJas line up too. I think we need to learn to play these teams, who come to defend, differently to how we have approached them. We need a bit of physicality, not replacing like for like.

I'm unlikely to predict the team exactly but I'd like to see Solanke up top and Grujic in midfield. I'd have Salah and AOC offering width.

The toilet part was definitely true! As for you magic, hyy pia and Gerrard were decent captains but for different reasons imo. Sami organised and directed, Gerrard led by example. Both are leadership qualities and although Mane would seem to me to fall more within the lead by example category, i also see some fight in Mane where he could step up to the role of directing, berating or encouraging as appropriate. The whole debate is far from pointless because you failed to see that Henderson cannot inspire with his ability on the pitch, as Mane can, and neither can he offer any solutions or leadership, other than a Spearing point, in adversity. He is also a shithouse. The captain of our club is a shithouse. Perhaps you think that sends out a different message to me?The captaincy debate is pointless? But the captain is a shithouse and we are defensively unsound when our captain is the defensive midfielder, insofar as we have one? I do like the suggestion of Lallana, however.

Klopp is great and i want to give him a chance because he has done some really good things here, but produce a team with any resilience or game management sufficient to challenge for top honours he has not. So much so, that i have trouble in thinking that we will make top 4 this season because we are less balanced than the manc clubs, spurs and Chelsea.Henderson's captaincy was something he left rather than something he choose imo. As has already been discussed well, we lack leaders in our established players, although personally, I'd give it to Mane.

Rogers made him Liverpool captain and Southgate England captain. The case for the prosecution rests, m'lud.

Chelsea had a team with some fighting spirit in it. Luiz, Kante, matic, costa. Cahill isn't a shithouse either, and im not arguing that he is absolute top quality by that comment. Henderson has been shoehorned into a more defensive minded midfield slot. Smacks of finding a place for the "captain" to me.

I don't think so either. I really do feel that the Lallana injury has hampered us massively, he is a really good player in the midfield 3 and leads the press. Keita and Lallana in midfield would be great if we added a player like Amadou Diawara who has a great future in the game. I've already given Henderson both barrels so I won't bore you all with that again! For now, Coutinho needs to come back in the league as cover for Mane in the front 3, or potentially Oxlade and Salah as wide forwards with Coutinho in the middle, which is where he should be with his skill set before he is allowed to leave. This season and until Lallana returns, id play Coutinho, Grujic and Can in the middle. Can likely wouldnt appreciate the defensive role id give him but i think he is on the angle for a move after this season anyway. Of course, we will continue to plod along with Wij and Henderson and continue to have a super model bird up front and impotence in the midfield area, which im sure you will agree, will be incredibly frustrating!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41180126 I bet this will impress Jurgen. Diligently going about his job, planning the players development, thinking about when and in what position to play him, then Chris Coleman intervenes!!

Thanks Woolster.