HBenn

These stories suggesting that RBS are heavily involved in the running of the club do seem relatively credible. I don't have any inside knowledge but I do find it quite interesting that Hicks and Gillett have been so quiet this summer. I mean everytime there has been stuff before, any type of rumour, anything that gives us hope that they may be on their way, Hicks at least has come out and rubbished it. This time, not one comment, nothing. Either they have learned that they will be judged by their actions not their words or there may be some truth in the idea that they are being gagged. While that may mean their time is running out and I am concerned what will happen if a buyer cannot be found it t does make me think that if the above is true, I hope Rafa will get some credit for sticking with the club in what at best must be testing times

With all the stuff in the press about Alonso and Mascherano talk about the refinancing seems to have been put on the back burner. Has the refinancing actually been confirmed? If not, does the club actually have to make an annoucement? If memory serves me correctly when the loan was renewed in January it was announced on the Offal weeks before the deadline. This time there has been no official announcement and just makes me wonder whether the delay is a result of there being some truth in the rumours on RAWK about big external investment.

In my opinion Real Madrid foolishly bought Ronaldo very early in the Summer and paid a ridiculous price for him. Not only did they do it in one payment they probably paid £10-15M more than they could have got him for. What did they expect to happen? All the other clubs that they wanted players from are going to inflate the price for the players they want to buy. Had they not purchased Ronaldo until the end of the Summer, we probably would have already sold Alonso for £20M. I would be made up if we stuck to our guns and didn't sell them Alonso unless they matched the £35m price we seem to have set. It really iritates me that they feel that they can dictate the price to us for our player and yet with Ronaldo they pay what Utd want and all in one installment. Imagine if this was a Utd player, even if he put in a transfer request they would still hold to their price and if Real did not match it they would just not sell the player. In my opinion this is what we should do. Its about time we played hardball in the transfer market. Real Madrid are arrogant enough to believe that they have the right to dictate and feel that if Alonso is unhappy we will bow to their demands. I actually think that if he is still here when the season starts he will settle down anyway. Didn't he say a few weeks ago that if he stayed at Liverpool it wouldn't be end of the World (or words to that effect?) He was bloody brilliant last year and that was while he had a professional relationship with the manager. He gets on well with the other players and if some reports are to be believed Benitez is hardly best mates with any of the players so as long as Xabi can maintain a professional relationship with the manager where is the problem. Hopefully the more Madrid took in the press the harder our resolve will become.

I think I saw this question posed in a thread somewhere recently but never saw a real answer to it. Normally he seems to cover Liverpool for the Echo and breaks the big stories. The other people that write the stories don't appear to be half as well informed and often their stories just seem to be a repeat of what has been mentioned on other websites. It would just be nice to get a better understanding as to what is cracking off with Alonso, Mascherano and Silva.

I am really happy about this news, not just because it is Kenny but because of what it says about Rafa. As mentioned, many managers would shy away from bringing in someone who is already a massive legend at the club and no doubt a big personality. It suggests to me that maybe Rafa's ego isn't as big as some have suggested, that he is open minded, values Kenny's opinion and more concerned about what Kenny can bring to the party than what his appointment will do in terms of Rafa's control of the whole club. In the past when these sort of appointments have been made i.e. "a link with the old bootroom" there has always been the suspicion that the idea has originated in the boardroom and the manager has gone along with it. I think that Sammy's appointment and Kenny's potential appointment will have been primarily Rafa's idea and I think that bodes well for the club. In terms of what Kenny brings, he seems quite canny and brings a certain level of calmness and experience. I saw an interview with him quite recently in which he was asked about some comments Ferguson had made about Rafa and how Rafa had then responded. He said that Rafa should just take it as a big compliment. I think that if he were part of the club and part of the daily discussions with Rafa and the backroom staff then this view would probably be taken on board by Rafa, if it is not already, and that would probably serve us slightly better. May be a short return for Kenny though if they put him in charge of the Academy, didn't he appoint Steve Heighway!?!?

Reading through people's posts there are obviously some that feel that we would be better off without Rafa. People's reasons vary from the fact that we haven't won the title to getting involved in club politics. I'll be clear, I am keen for Rafa to stay in charge, I agree that he has bought some poor players, that we can be too negative and that we can give too much respect to "lesser teams" but I would like to know how people would have done things differently. From my perspective, when Rafa arrived I was probably at my lowest ebb as a fan. We were crap, boring to watch, no character, nothing. To make matters worse Utd were vastly superior on a commercial level and realistically streets ahead on the pitch. They were in the top 2 of the richest clubs in the world and it was 14 years since we had won the title and my Utd mates used to laugh about Anfield not Old Trafford now being the trophy free zone apart from the Mickey Mouse Treble they would say. In my opinion when Rafa arrived he had three ways in which to overtake Utd and Chelsea 1) outspend them 2) move quicker than them 3) develop home grown players Looking at each one in turn, going back to Istanbul Rafa has repeatedly said to overtake Utd we need to outdo whatever they do in the transfer market. I am not saying that he has not had money to spend, because he definitely has. But how many times has he been able to go out and buy his no.1 target. Excluding the Barry/Keane Shenanigans - I would say twice - Torres and Mascherano. In the first couple of years while he may have a budget of £20M he knew he had to improve 2-3 positions, so instead of being able to blow the entire budget on a player like Dani Alves, once Alves' price went outside certain limits he had to go for his second choice to ensure he could still afford to bring in players to strengthen other areas. Once he reached the point where the level of the squad was decent across the pitch he has looked to spend the majority of his budget on 1-2 areas instead of 3-4. All this time, Utd, already in a position of strength have been able to spend big on individual players, some of which, like those two Serbian kids they spend £16M on, then can gradually introduce into a winning team. Moving onto the speed of deals being completed, I think Rafa realised early on he would not be able to compete with Utd on price, especially under Moores, so it was imperative that if we were to bring the level of the team up quickly, we would need to get deals agreed fast with players and teams before Utd got in and the price went up. This is where he seems to have grievances with the club and if rumours are to be believed we have missed out on the likes of Vidic and Lennon because of it. The third way to catch Utd was to produce home grown/Academy players, much like Arsenal have. I don't know the ins+outs of the Academy and please feel free to correct me but if a player is presented to Rafa from the Academy and he doesn't rate him then the right thing to do is not to play him. If he plays him and he is crap, as fans we won't care where he has come from, if we lose, we will have a go at the manager. I cannot believe that if a home grown player was good enough, Rafa would not play him, I mean a) an Academy player will increase your popularity with the fans, b) You haven't bought them so you get less stick than if they cost £5M c) they bring passion foreign players don't always have. I don't believe Rafa is stupid, he know these things. From my point of view he seems to have said, I don't rate the Academy players but instead of me just moaning about it I am keen to have control of the Academy and see if I can produce players. It is pretty obvious from what Wenger has said that he has control down at Arsenal and I cannot believe Ferguson does not have overall control at Utd. I understand the counter arguments to such an idea but surely, if the manager does not rate the players he should be allowed to have a go himself. Otherwise we are asking him to operate with a hand tied behind his back. The last thing I wanted to talk about was Rafa's role in the club politics and to ask people to think about some things. People say that Rafa should not get involved and I can see their reasons for saying that and they also don't seem to like him not dismissing links to other clubs straight away. People have suggested that Rafa is all about me, me, me. But let me ask you this, if you knew there was interest from another big club who promised you would be given money to spend, you don't get on with the Chief Executive and one of the chairmen and the relationship with the other chairman was a marriage of convenience, why wouldn't you jump. It can't be easy for Rafa working in the club, he could have left last summer and people would still have a lot of affection for him. I would argue that Rafa does what lots of people do in business, use the interest of another as a bargaining tool. I think he know he could never get the control he wants at Real Madrid, so he uses their interest to try and increase his ability to influence transfers, the Academy and perhaps how much money he has to spend. But what is wrong with that? Would we prefer a manager that dismisses all links and just accepts that we are slow to conclude transfers, that he doesn't rate the Academy players but can do nothing about it and that he cannot compete with Utd? I see the political stuff as a means to an end and if that means Liverpool back at the top then I am all for it. Look at the state of the club and team, when Rafa arrived, look at our current position in the league, look at our record in Europe during his tenure and look at the unprecedented level of turmoil that has occurred behind the scenes. If you can name a manager that would have done what he has done and not quit before now I would like you to name him. People say Mourinho but didn't he leave Chelsea by mutual consent? I think that before people call for our current manager's head they should think about all these things because I feel he deserves more time and allowing him to go to the calibre of club that reportedly would like him as their manager may be on the biggest mistakes we could ever make.

I apologise if the point I am about to make is the reason why Dave posted but I personally feel that we wouldn't be having this debate if the complaints that Rafa had made about us being slow in getting things sorted were not accurate. Here we are, trying to chase the title and all the Mancs must be laughing their heads off because what will the media be focusing on as we edge closer and closer to the end of the season...Rafa's not signed his contract, who will leave, will there be a takeover. If this had all been resolved within a few weeks of talks starting we would have been looking at a manager who was commited to the club for the foreseaable future and a club that had been boosted by this news. A settled camp with the only focus being on challenging for that title. Don't get me wrong I am not saying the players would leave but can you imagine, every week our players will be linked with another club, they will have to come out and deny they are looking for a move and then concentrate on the game on a Saturday. All the time the team spirit will be going downhill because as Dave has said players will be asking each other whether they are looking to leave, causing ruptions and mistrust. I personally feel that they should give Rafa what he is requesting. I think some things have been blown up, I think he just wants the level of control that Fergie has at United. Can you imagine if Alex Ferguson wanted Gareth Barry, David Gill and the owners saying no and then say he can sign an older player for more money? It wouldn't happen Regarding the Academy I must admit it has bemused me for a while why Rafa does not have a large say. It is one thing that really annoys me. In my opinion Rafa does not think the quality is anywhere near good enough, a view shared by Houllier during his time and doesn't want to risk his own neck by putting them into games. Now whether this is the right approach or not, it means that lads are effectively wasting their time and careers in the Academy and the club should be actively looking to resolve this issue, not doing nothing. Rafa seems keen to put a structure in place and whilst some of the players he has brought into the reserves are sub-standard, if it works it will save us millions and if not we will be no worse off than we are now!

I think that some perspective is needed. Watching the game yesterday, upto the sending off and Rooney's chance I thought that we had looked relatively comfortable. I thought that their goal was another typical scrabby goal by United against us. After the goal it was a different game and unfortunately United are a top quality team so it would always be very difficult. Saying that though, had Torres tucked that chance away in about the 67th minute it may have been a different game and everybody this morning would be thinking how far we have progressed. Yet they did us again from a set piece, which they always seem to do and that needs to be addressed. The big problem before and after the goal was that we never really hurt them. I think that a lot of that boils down to our defensive attitude. The crux of the problem for me is that in all the games that we play against the top teams we do not believe we can beat them. We don't have the belief that we can just go out and play our own game and beat the top teams. We go to these top teams and we don’t play well because we are worried about what they can do to us but not what we can do to them. That makes the players edgy and nervous. When I look at the United team compared to ours, I think that they do edge us. They have more quality players in attack than us and that gives their other players the confidence to go at teams and not feel the need to try and contain. If you take Ronaldo out of their team and they came to Anfield I think they would play exactly the way we do. They have spent big money to get a number of these players but on a side point, the example of Ronaldo is probably an area where we have made the greatest progress. Under Houllier and Thompson they had to be made aware of Ronaldo but I believe nowadays that Benitez would be well aware of who he was and would have already been trying to put a deal in place. Rafa made some points before the game about last Summer being the first time that he felt that he could compete at the top table for players and if DIC could get in and he is allowed to buy some top attacking players to go with Torres I think that we will be transformed. I think that we would see a team that goes out and takes the game more to the opposition because they would have the belief that even if the game opens up we would have the quality to turn them over. Looking at the team say over the last 18 months I think there is real reasons for optimism. Look at the players who come into our team in that time. Agger, who for my money is sorely missed in these big games, Skrtel and Torres. Babel is starting to look very promising. All players that are good technically and improve our level. Overall, therefore while I was gutted yesterday that we didn't get anything from the game I thought there was a fair amount to be positive about in the first 70 mins. The last 20 mins, against 10 men they did hurt us, but for me the scoreline exaggerated the real difference between the two teams. If they feel that they are now a million miles ahead of us then fine but for me we are not to far behind and with one or two more top quality attacking players we could get the better of them.

I think the best thing that could happen would be for Gillett to give an exclusive to Tony B in the Echo. Whilst reassuring the fans and DIC, it would also send a clear message to Hicks. Like Rashid says, if Tony B was to write an article imploring him to do this, that would help. In terms of bringing it to the attention of the wider media, a statement from the Sons Of Shankly imploring him not to sell and outlining the impact of him doing so may be the best bet. Personally, whilst I cannot accept how the club has been run in the last 12 months if Gillett were to stand firm and refuse to sell to Hicks he would gain a bit of respect back from me.

Does anyone else think that the news in the Echo today about deals being lined up for Crouch and Hyypia, following on from the news yesterday that Mascherano has signed permanently means that maybe everything behind the scenes is close to being sorted. I mean I may be stated the bleeding obvious and apologies if it has already been posted but why would Gillett invest in the Mascherano deal when it is evident he is off? Furthermore if Gillett hasn't invested any of it why would Hicks invest it all? I would have thought there would be a freeze on pretty much all expenditure until the owners were sure they were staying or going and the new guys were in place. That to me points to the fact that everything is in place for us to have new owners (which I hope) or Hicks has got full control. The statement yesterday from Parry about the owners coming good on investment was interesting I thought but I have also been worried by the amount of Pro Hicks information on the website from Rafa etc. I hope that I am reading too much into things!

So much has been in the Echo today that my head is spinning a bit but did anyone else notice, which I missed the first time I read it, Tony Barrett's comment about the loan "Hicks and Gillett have until the end of February to complete financial restructuring, as they seek to transfer £350m of debt incurred in the purchase and running of the club onto the club itself" Now I know that they had said that they would never do this in the initial introductory press conference and then it appeared they may. Then I read that they had decided not to do this and this was one of the reasons why it was taking so long to get the agreement in place as they had to put their own money. Whilst I notice that Tony Barrett mentions in the article they will have to stump up some of their own money to get this loan does anyone else think that the Amercians may have thought that as well as undermining Rafa this information will distract attention from the above.

I agree with a lot of what you say and yes, I have some concerns about how we have been playing under Rafa. I also felt that there may have been an element of truth Hicks made abouth the Utd game. For those reasons, I was quite happy to judge the Americans on what they were doing and not what the papers were saying but when so many journalists, whose information you trust - due to their track record - start making comments then you start to believe that something may be up and that they are looking to replace him. I would much rather make my opinion known now that I feel Rafa deserves more time and that I am feeling uneasy about the club's lack of comment on these issues than wait six months when the club announce that the comments that these journalists and people like Dave Usher have been making are actually true and the manager has been replaced. I mean if they can speak to the American press why they can't they speak to Tony Barrett in the Echo? If they come out and say that it is a load of rubbish and people need to take a chill pill I would also be happy with that but I just think them saying nothing creates uncertainty around the whole club.

At this moment in time, I am a very frustrated Liverpool fan. I hasten to add not with Rafa or the team as I feel Rafa has done enough in his time here to deserve some patience and that the perfomances of the team are probably as a result of the uncertainty off the pitch. When Hicks and Gillett took over the club I believed from what they said that we would be able to compete at the top level - Rafa would no longer have to settle for his second/third targets. I would no longer fear picking up the paper and reading that Rafa had gone to Real/Inter/Bayern Munich as a result of his frustration that Liverpool cannot afford the players he really wanted. No longer reading in the paper comments from Rafa talking about his frustration in missing out on the best young players like Denilson and Diaby to Arsenal due to a lack of a) money and/or b) speed. After all we had all been led to believe these were the reasons we had sold the club in the first place. I looked at our team and considered that, with a manager that was such a good tactician we could beat any team in a one off game - explaining why we were so good in cup competitions - but to win in the league we needed another three World Class players. I believed following the introductory press conference that the Amercians would give us the money to buy these players along with money for some top notch young players and that we would blow everyone else out of the water in the summer transfer market as a statement of intent. Personally I believe that Rafa initially felt that too but I just wonder whether Rafa felt after that time the Americans believed that because we had reached the European Cup Final we did not need to spend that much money. That was what led him to make the comments after the European Cup Final that Liverpool would need to outdo what our rivals did in the transfer market to make up ground or match it, to stay in touch. Man Utd having just won the league went out and spent £50m on two players for the first team and two promising youngsters. This leads me to my furstation, I believe that had Rafa not been so ambitious and determined to put Liverpool back on top they would not be looking to sack him. As he has pestered Hicks and Gillett and tried to get them to commit money and made life uncmfortable for them, they are looking to replace him with someone who will toe the line and not get too upset when we lose players like Mascherano. People will no doubt say there is no proof Liverpool are looking to replace him but when the ex chief reporter of the Echo, Oliver Kay, Paul Joyce and most of the other papers say that he is very close to the sack and start talking about Klinnsmann as a possible replacement, I believe that they are. If its not true why didn't the club come out and deny it straight away? Like they did with Capello? For me, we have a manager that has been saying since the European Cup Final, to win trophies we need to buy top class players, a manager that is prepared to take the risk of getting sacked to make points and we have owners that have made up their mind to get rid of him, not because we have finished poorly in the league- who knew in mid December where we will finish, not because we are out of Europe but because he has acted in the way most fans would do if they felt we were in danger of falling behind and losing our top players. He has made his point for months privately and in desperation brought it into the public arena. I feel that if we don't do something now next season we may well have a different manager that gets along with the board very well because both their goals are well aligned i.e. mediocrity. I feel that we need to start putting pressure on the Americans, not necessarily to go but to least explain what the hell they are upto. I mean they must be aware that fans are unhappy but the Echo and the club have been deathly quiet about any of these major issues for the last month, nothing from Hicks, nothing from Gillett, nothing from Parry.

Well from what I have read by Dave Usher, with regards to their supposed lack of interest in supporting Rafa, I wouldn't be suprised if they did try and duck a meeting. However, if they did that then they wouldn't be able to come out with all that stuff about caring about what the supporters think and if they really aren't interested in what the fans think it will expose that to everyone. Of course if they are interested and accept then it would help their PR and our understanding of what they are doing! By the way, with regards to the lurkage, I am just a really slow reader and typist!<lol>

All, This is my first post so go easy...I personally believe that George Gillett and Tom Hicks probably see Liverpool firmly as an investment but I would like to hear their views and also express my opinions to them on why I believe Rafa Benitez is essential to Liverpools' future. With that in mind does anybody know if a forum could be set up with these guys so that we could do this. I mean I know that the Independent supporters association have nights where they have speakers, which Les Lawson comments about in the club programme and I know we have the AGM where Rick Parry and David Moores used to turn upto but that obviously isn't unitl March/April. With both Gillett and Hicks over here for the United game in a few weeks and George Gillett saying how he loves to mingle with the fans in Canada ( I know, I know PR) would it be possible to set up a meeting then. Does anybody know! I mean if it were feasible it could clear a lot of things up and if they turned the invite down with some crappy excuse then it isn't going to reflect well on them and their image in the media. I live in the Midlands and a load of my mates are Villa fans and the Americans there have done some things like this to get their opinions and obviously it has added to their popularity but whether our chairmen would be as keen I don't know!! What do people think?