ODZ

Battle of Gaza (2007) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cease fire has been agreed. Gaza's civilians are safe until the next Israeli elections.

I really hope Pep doesn't go there. Not interested in hating him. He should wait for the City job.

No, I specifically asked them if they'd like to live in a Palestinian state if there was peace, and there was no poverty or anything like that, just to live under Palestinian rule and under their national banner. I asked them that in response to them complaining about the Jewish character of Israel. It was a hypothetical question and still, 100% say absolutely no. Some of them were pretty frank and admitted they would never enjoy the liberty they do here, even if they lived in an Arab nation that was a democracy. They're scared shitless of having only their own people in charge of things, it's pretty funny.

Do you talk to Israeli-Arabs? I do. I used to study with them at Tel Aviv University. We got political sometimes. They oppose the occupation obviously and some of them complain about the Jewish character of the state and they don't feel like the country belongs to them etc. I agree with them on most things. Then I ask them if they'd move to the Palestinian state if there is peace, and all of them immediately panic and start backtracking. I have never ever met an Israeli-Arab who has said he'd rather live in a Palestinian state. They want to stay in Israel, without it being the "Jewish" state. Basically, they want to live in Israel just the way it is, but remove the Jewish symbolism.

1950.

It's not only okay, it's also pretty accurate.

I can't believe you're even going on with this. I love you. My father's family was very wealthy in Iraq. They had to leave everything behind and run away. Arabs in Iraq started hunting down young Jewish women to rape them. There was an increase in violence against Jews and vandalizing properties and stores owned by Jews. They decided to board a ship to Iran at first because it was easier to find a way get to Israel from there, it was not commercial of course, just an industrial ship. They were hidden inside some crater. My father was about 4. He was with his mother and baby sister (my aunt) inside one of the craters. In the middle of the "cruise", my aunt started crying loudly. The crew, whom my family paid to allow them to board the ship, threatened my mother that if she can't keep her baby daughter quiet, they'll have to throw my aunt into the ocean. Auntie kept quiet. Those were good times.

The funniest thing is you going into complete meltdown spewing some of the most amazing shit I've ever read, including this bit.

You're an amazing pathological liar. Here's the real quote, not the distortion, Mr. pathological liar: "We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs." Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25. Pathological lying, much? Yes, there was violence, there was war, but there was never a systematic exile of Arabs. Those who stayed got full CITIZENSHIP. This was the best bit. Such an extraordinary impertinent lie, which made me crack up. Amazing. My parents' families lived in tents for 3 years when they got here.

It's a shame you haven't commented on the rest of the post, which is much more important than the first sentence. Don't you agree?

Does it matter how much you know about the subject in order to know what needs to happen to solve the conflict? What I'm trying to say is that the Palestinian propaganda of those evil Zionists who've taken their land is just as distorted as the religious nutcases who believe the West Bank belongs to the Jews because our ancestors lived there 3000 years ago. The facts point that both sides have done wrong, no one has a more "legitimate" claim to a land and both sides need to get over it. If we just stopped nitpicking over how it has come to this, and rather focus on how to solve this in order to create a better future, we'd all be much closer to a solution. So many people choose their own "rightous" stand, stick by it and this is why we're stuck in limbo. So many people want to be "right" about it and not enough want to be smart about it. If I were the Israeli prime minister and I had a mandate to do whatever I wanted to, there'd be peace here within two years. And it's not because I'd be such a talented politician or whatever, it's because I'd genuinely want peace, I'd start talking to the Palestinians about the core issues, make logical and fair compromises, and get a treaty done. It's practically 99% done already, everybody knows the compromises each side will need to make anyway, just make them. Then I'd go to the UN and wave the treaty around with Abu Mazen, and ask Hamas to stop the hostility, let go of their weapons and live safely as free citizens in the Palestinian state. If they refuse to give up their ambitions to destroy Israel, I'll have enough support from the world to get into Gaza by force, liberate it from their rule to prevent them from sabotaging the peace process, hand it over to the Palestinian authority in the West Bank, open Gaza's border to the world and let them live their lives.

I have a suggestion, let's go back to the 1850 borders. Palestinians can go back to the Arabian Peninsula, where most of them came from, and Jews can leave and spread all over the world like they did before. You can all visit Palestine, take a massive dump and leave it in its pre-1850 state: mostly empty of people and full of shit (unlike the current state of having many people who are full of shit *dadum tish*).

Sure, go ahead and distort what I've said to suit your agenda. Also, go ahead and distort the history you seem to be an expert of. The British did not grant "the Zionists" Palestinian land. That land was either bought, or granted by the UN partition plan. The British did not give an inch of "Palestinian owned" land to the Jews. The Zionist Jews first settled in Israel with the blessing of the Ottomans to develop the land. They were never given a land that was settled by someone else by a third party other than the UN. During that same period between 1880-1914, the Ottomans have also encouraged massive immigration of Arabs into Palestine to keep a demographic advantage of Muslims in the area. Arabs who did not own an inch of Palestinian land first settled there in the same time period Jews did, but later claimed that land to be their own within a generation. 'Palestine' was a barren wasteland before 1870, and the population was largely concentrated in major old cities such as Jerusalem, Safed and Hevron. It's funny because if we could turn the clock back to the 1850's, not only do the land the Palestinians claim as their own not belong to them, but they as a nation don't exist either. This point is moot because they exist today, and so do Israel, and we need to get along, and you need to stop whinging over who was first here and who owned what and who stole from who because you don't have a freaking clue and it's irrelevant anyway. Unbelievable. Look up the Hebron massacre, the Safed massacre, the Jaffa massacre. Most of the injustices inflicted upon them were from their fellow Arab Muslim brothers. Calling a survival war, an "imperialist" war? Get over yourself.

Well I'd be glad I don't have a sister as I'd hate to watch her get raped and murdered in front of me.

I think it was more to do with Hitler aspiring to conquer all of Europe and bringing it under a Nazi regime. Yeah, that was it.

There is. This is what is so annoying to me. The people in power are not interested in peace, the people themselves do and are dragged to extreme views by fear/war/bloodshed. You can't help but think it because you'd be mostly right. Netanyahu and Barak started this mess for political gain to prevent the left wing from gaining momentum due to economic, internal policies. Think of it as the Republicans in America stirring some shit somewhere to create a perception of their strength in dealing with external conflicts, all while their agenda is holding power so that they don't raise taxes to the rich. It would be a great example to explain to an outsider what's going on here. Take it from me, Israel won't touch Iran. It's all talk, for internal propaganda and to pressure the world and U.S to act. We can't accomplish a successful attack on their nuclear program, we either don't have the means to do so, or the price will be too high to pay. Hamas doesn't mind dozens of dead Palestinians either if it strengthens them in the process, and violence always makes them grow more powerful. Desperate Palestinians look at Hamas as their saviours, when the tragedy is that it is in Hamas' best interests to keep them desperate and fearful.

The Jews had every right to have a state of their own after what's happened to them while the rest of the world stood by and watched. It's not too much to ask after such events to take charge of your destiny and not rely on others to not decide all their problems stem from you and order your extermination. Besides, even without the holocaust, Israel earned their land, it was not given to them. It was earned when 10% of Israel's population died in the independence war. 10%. Dead. Because the Arabs wanted it all, because 22 nations and 5,000,000 aquare miles were not enough, because the Jews should never have one little state of their own. No. They can't have it. They are evil Zionists and their existence is blasphemy.

A Jewish state in Israel was founded in order to provide a home for the Jews. The only home for the Jews. There are 22 Arab nations and over 5,000,000 square miles under their control. Poor Arabs have nowhere to live! Evil Nazi Zionists with their blasphemous idea of having a state to call their own. EVIL, get rid of them.

Most of the land they got from the UN partition plan was owned by them. Owned by Jews. Bought by money, not handed over or torn away from Arab hands. Most of your assumptions are just no true and it's ridiculous that you base your entire opinion on 90% false information and inaccurate history events. 7 Arab nations, including the 'Palestinian' population, went to war with Israel to throw the Jews into the mediterranean sea. Their words, not mine. They got their arses kicked by a huge underdog on the brink of extinction. They didn't "leave" everything. There were a lot of different things happening. Most of the population left because the Arab nations told them to leave in order to clear the way for them to come in and get rid of the Israeli's. They thought they'd be back. Some left in fear of the war, some joined the war or attempted to kill Israeli civilians in acts of terror before the declaration of independence. Those who stayed and were living within Israel's borders at the end of war got full Israeli citizenship and rights to live there,something the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza never received from Egypt and Jordan. Well that's the truth. The point in time where I think Israel started to get more cocky and aggressive was the six day war. From that point, people started to perform hubris. We were no longer the underdog. There were 'massacres' on both sides. It was war, things got very ugly. Why does no one mention the 800,000 Jews in Arab nations (including my parents) who have fled to Israel and only mention the 600,000 Arabs who have fled Palestine? Why can't I return to my "homeland" of Iraq? Why is this even an issue? Tens of millions of people's homes have been taken away from them in World War II. Tens of millions. They all found a home, except 600,000 Palestinians, who are now 4.7 million Palestinians because in this crazy world, Palestinian refugees inherit their parents' status at birth even if they were born in other Arab countries. Whose fault is this, Israel? Full of assumptions, no actual facts. Full of assumptions, no actual facts. Just your own little 'memory' of history.

Hopefully something like this, more or less. 1967 borders with land swaps to minimize relocation on a 1-1 ratio. The land given isn't some crappy desert, for example, expanding the Gaza strip to allow room for Palestinians to build more housing and develop. Refugees have right to return to the Palestinian state and granted full citizenship. Israeli and Palestinian officers playing backgammon together on border gates. It can happen in 5 years, not 30. Both sides' governments just need to want it to happen.

Since people like to throw this one, thought I'd clear this up a bit. This scheme is very misleading, the guy who made it did a pretty good job of propaganda. The 1946 map doesn't mean anything, it was never in a partition plan. It's just a map depicting Jewish settlements. White marks areas of Jewish populations and green marks areas where there are no Jewish settlements. That doesn't mean Arabs were settling in all of those areas marked in green. The negev for example (the south) was hardly populated at all, but of course it's convenient to make this the first map to add the dramatic effect of Jews stealing land from the Arabs. The 1947 map is the UN partition plan, a plan Jews accepted and the Arabs didn't. The Arabs instead went on to start a war in order to eradicate the Jews and wipe off them of the map. They failed and the lines that were drawn at the end of the war were the 1967 borders. West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza was taken by Egypt. I wonder why Jordan and Egypt didn't grant the Palestinians that lived within their own borders independence? Isn't that weird? They basically had the entire West Bank and Gaza under Arab control and for some reason, Palestinians were occupied by their fellow Arab nations and nobody gave a fuck... The map in 2010 doesn't really mean anything either, it just marks the land that is in full control of the Palestinian authority (by the way, Gaza is completely 'free' of Jewish settlements, so that's important to note). It's not a demographic map, it's more of a legal authority map. It's a bit misleading to think that all the bits in gray in the West Bank are filled with huge Jewish settlements that Israel are occupying. In a two state solution, Palestine will get 100% of the land in the West Bank, 2% will be lands swapped in a 1-1 ratio, a principle agreed by Ehud Olmert and Abu Mazen. That will only require 100,000 Israeli's to relocate. That's not as daunting as what the map suggests.

There's a good chance of a cease fire within 24 hours. Fingers crossed. I'm hoping that when this ends, people will figure out that Netanyahu has dragged us into a pointless conflict and got fuck all out of it. The right wing had a sizeable lead in polls before this started. On one hand, there's the fear factor and the whole "get behind the leader even though he's a cunt" symptom people suffer from which is probably why he started this operation. On the other hand, there's the "then again, he's a massive, stupendous cunt" factor that might cause him to lose support. He has to lose the elections, people need to wake up, there's no future with this guy in power, all he cares about is keeping his seat and maintaining the status quo. Status quo in economy and status quo in foreign affairs. Did I mention how big of a cunt he is?

Don't paint me with that brush. If you actually bothered to ask me some genuine questions about what's happening right now in Gaza, you'd figure out pretty quickly that I oppose my government policy as well as their latest acts in Gaza (and I'm a very small minortiy). The problem is you're making the discussion into the "Israel are evil and the Palestinians are innocent, Israel shouldn't exist" crap which is completely ridiculous so I'm calling you out on it.

You don't need to comment on that because you have nothing to say. You have nothing to say that is based on facts and historical events, only on your distorted, demented views that make you feel morally superior but in reality, only exposes you for the complete nonsensical bullshitter you are. Now grow up and either learn some history, or stay away from subjects you know nothing about but is too proud to admit because of your vulnerable ego.