SasaS

I must say I don't understand this referendum move any more, if the yes vote wins, surely Tsipras will have to step down and over what, a deal which he 80% or 90% accepted, the only contentious element seems to still be top-up for the richest pensioners.  

If he wins the referendum, he is where he is now, a nation divided, narrow majority supports him, he continues to oppose some of the elements of the bailout deal, stalemate continues, or pushing Greece out of the euro begins, which neither Tsipras nor almost 80% of Greeks want.

Merkel doesn't want to negotiate until the referendum vote, others in the EU say referendum is over deal which is no longer on the table.

I bet they all hope Supreme Court rules the referendum is illegal and they hammer out some kind of a deal on Monday.

Isn't Hiddink a bit past his prime, judging by the last five or six years of his career?

Is Bojan Krkić still there? They seem to be building something with this.

A 49 year old midget with a big nose sits in an f16 demonstrating all sorts of cool killing machines in a film funded by the us military about as in depth as a us air force recruitment commercial just with more backslaps and high fives and all you can say is get in? Admit it youve masturbated 4 times hoping to see more arabs getting bombed and maybe some tart feeding strawberries to tom cruises oiled bum in the moonlight.

He will be 53 on Friday.

I miss the Count.

So, the whiff emanating from my posts would be more of a wishy-washy Lib Dem than a Tory?

It looks like Tsipras is ready to concede defeat, according to FT. But now Merkel wants a referendum.

 

Really, I come across as Tory on Greece? No, I've already been accused of belonging to extreme center, in Tariq Ali's terminology, would that mean Tory in the UK? I almost always vote social democrat, I began as a Marxist, but than I grew up. I'd say I still go to Marxist writers for criticism, but don't find any viable  vision in it any more. I was always emotionally leaning to the left, but as I grow older I seem to have more time for fiscal conservatism, but thankfully, still no sign of any sympathy for social conservatism.

Why, what are your political leanings?

I'm intrigued by your knowledge of Greek people and their denial of any responsibility in the country's economic mess.

 

How do you know this?

As I make it pretty obvious from my post, my evidence is anegdotal, i.e. I know this from talking to them, reading their posts and discussing with them on forums and on social media, reading their comments and reading and watching various statements and testimonials in the media. Again, as I said, this can you believe what they have done to us attitude is what gets on my nerves most in all this. And this attitude is prevalent among the Greek people in the sources available to me. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I would be indebted to you, as their attitude is seriously testing my sympathy for them, which is something I don't like to feel.  

Isn't the reality that they actually see many of them as being reasons they accept and as such elected a government to steer them away from those problems?

 

Hence their rejection of a corrupt and anti-democratic international finance agenda.

Possibly. I would say they have elected them because Syriza promised them end of austerity and because everybody else failed, so the people decided to let them have a go at the mess. People from the left would probably argue that it is an ideological victory for them, but most of all I think they voted them is as an anti-establishment movement, which has been a recent trend in Europe, from movements such as Podemos or all those anti-immigration anti-establishment movements on the right, in countries which coped better with the crisis and see creating a fortress as a first priority.

I've seen very little "soul searching" from Greeks, they mostly just bang on how the country was a victim of external forces. They lived far, far better than people in neighbouring countries for a long time and people tend to accept that as normal. 

I agree. They should simply fuck the Euro off immediately. 

 

I wish they hadn't bothered fucking about for the last few months keeping up this pretence that the Troika is going to negotiate with them sufficiently. Default, leave the Euro, start again with the actual democratic mandate given to them by the Greek people.

 

Where my view differs with yours is that you appear to be more angry with the Greek population than the Troika that have imposed such measures that has crippled the country, and lined their own pockets.

I accept that there is now a political spiel by both negotiating parties trying to call each others bluff, ideological differences etc. I don't believe that radical Left can implement its programme within the EU boundaries, as the EU is a center-left to center-right project and if you have a mandate to do something else, different, more radical, you should step out of these boundaries.

Greece is not a Western European society and it pretended to be one, on steroids of cheap euro-borrowing, for years. So I am "angry" that people there do not seem capable of accepting this as the original sin of this mess, or at least a part of the problem, regardless of who lined their own pockets. And many Greek pockets were well lined in the past.

You don't think that Greece has the right to sort out its own mess without its creditors forcing their own solution on them? If you fell behind on your mortgage, would you put up with the bank manager moving in and telling you exactly what you can and can't buy for the next 10 years?

This is another matter, but, yes absolutely, however, the problem is they are virtually bankrupt, not "behind on their mortgage". I wish Greece could exit euro and probably best the EU at the lowest possible cost for everyone involved. Than Syriza can embark on their non-austerity programme  freely and fully and for what I care, they can end liberal capitalism, or the Greek version of it. Hell, they may even succeed and create a better society, as capitalism doesn't seem to make many people happy, at least since 2008. But not on other people's bail out money: Clear the mess, start with a clean slate and do what ever you want.

Euro will be cheaper for you to buy,

In this case it means not being bankrupt. Slovenia and Slovakia, countries with lower standards of living than Greece were forced to bail Greece out and stand to lose money if it defaults.

I know  the situation is complex and it has its history. But thing that  always pissed me off with Greeks is that you just cannot get them to admit that it may be their fault in any way. You ask them about their corrupt political elites that were taking turns in the government for decades, crony capitalism, maybe governments paying certain segments of society above the means in order to extend the "ownership" of the culture of overspending, no, no, no, it's always the Germans, IMF, international financial moguls,they were just piling on more and more debt on the poor unsuspecting Greece.

How come economic powerhouses Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania can balance their finances in the "economic straightjacket" of euro, and Greece can't? Why is it never the Greeks' fault? Right-wing conspiracy against the leftist government, greedy banks, Wall Street, hedge funds, Germans, they all sat down together and decided, yes, let's fuck Greece up.

I don't think Allen would of played to the required level to get a move to Real, even if he was Basque. Illarramendi won La Ligas young player of the year and was voted the best midfielder in La Liga in 2013, beating Iniesta, Rakitic, Xavi, Alonso amongst others. Can't see Allen regardless of his nationality eclipsing those names.

True, I'm not disputing the fact that he may be better, only that the fact he plays for Real, and the other doesn't may not be crucial in itself, as it was always easier for one to make it to Real, than it would be for the other.

Well, yes, it's not such a big stretch for a tidy, decent but unspectacular CM or DM playing for Sociedad to end up at Real Madrid, If I understand JP correctly, Illarramendi isn't all that much better and different than Allen, who is already here. The fact that RM had a look may not mean all that much as he was recruited from their catchment area, not from South America or Scandinavia. Or Wales. 

But then again Joe Allen would never play for Real Madrid so the fact that Illarramendi has played regularly over two seasons at the biggest club in world football shows that he's a step above Allen in and of itself.

But would he play for Real Madrid if he began his career at Swansea and not Real Sociedad?

If Allen was Basque and not Welsh, maybe he would have been recruited by Real.

(sigh) I knew this would end in tears

Ha ha ha.. My first neg. And for a joke. Shame on you.

He turned 28 yesterday, so I'm not sure about the re-sale value.

There has to be some Qatari club or maybe someone in China. There has to be. Please.

Benitez added: "He can play as a holding midfielder but can also get from box to box and so I am looking forward to seeing him score goals for Liverpool .

It wouldn't let me edit...

Ah, you meant Southampton and Swansea don't spend much. Well, they don't have to pay our premium on prices, and there is a big difference in buying for solid top 8 or top 10 side than top 4. We could have spent much less and still finish 6th or 5th. 

Arsenal spent some serious money in the last two years I think, Ozul, Sanchez, Chambers etc.