Benitaur

In his first season in 2005 he did. In his sixth season, he finished 7th in the league. Seventh.

Yes, thank God we have higher standards than the scum. They recently had a manager who finished 11th twice in his first 6 years. We would have sacked someone like that years before this useless shit brought the club to ruins.

Van Gaal, Hiddink and even Capello have all said their current team is the last team they will manage before retirement, so there is no hope on any of them

Besides, what makes anyone think that tax evading Hiddink will come to England with the taxes as it currently is?

The only reason he took the Chelsea job was because Roman was his paymaster for Russia too at the same time. He probably got no pay in Chelsea while getting bonus payments in Russia.

BTW I voted Villas-Boas because he is exciting and everyone is hoping he is Maurinho II

However, to be consistent with my posts about only hiring managers who have won something in major leagues (French league isn't one of them), I should move my vote over to Rijkaard.

Barca hunt in packs, that's the key, it's always 3 or 4 players converging on or around a player. Because the Barca boys know their football, they know how to tackle without looking like a loon while doing it. They watch spaces, they even 'show' spaces to the opposition, like setting a trap, making it look like a good place to pass the ball, but they're ready to intercept, they know what a good passing opportunity looks like.

But it only works if they do it together, their four in midfield are as tight a unit as you can hope to have. We need the same mentality, we need intelligent players in the midfield who can keep the ball but also have athleticism. For me, I'd have a midfield 5 of Pacheco, Lucas, Meireles, Gerrard, and Aquilani. And I reluctantly put Gerrard in there. He needs a fucking talking to. Shankly would have stripped him of the captaincy a long, long time ago. That ego needs to be stamped on and he needs to make a choice about being part of a team or going off on his own and living out whatever fantasy he has in his head about himself. I love Gerrard, he's a class player, but in much the same way that Ibrahimovich was at Barca. They're better without him if he doesn't buy into the ethos of team-work and sharing responsibility and using your head.

 

 

That is what we were capable of last season when our players were fit and available, as was the case there against Atletico.

Beautiful move, Aquilani was the catalyst behind it with his movement off the ball on a couple of occassions.

We're just far too static in our passing these days, we need players looking for the give and go. Far too often (99% of the time) we pass the ball and then maintain our positions, not offering another angle to the man on the ball.

Have a look at this example of Barca pressing and passing. The first example is the away game at Arsenal, then the clip changes to show them at home pressing.

It's not just a case of having an engine, it's intelligence to know when and where to press. You see Maxwell spotting a pass and pressing, it takes a bit of vision and game intelligence to see that was going to be an option and to not go in so recklessly as to give away a free-kick or to leave yourself open to a drop of the shoulder or a dummy.

 

What i don't get is how I understand this, yet people who are paid thousands of pounds per week to be involved in football professionally, do not.

Great post. Thats exactly what Aquilani was brought for, and I agree, Lucas and Mereiles and Pacheco would be perfect for such a system. Gerrard in front with Torres would probably work well with that too

People who criticise Rafa's style have probably never watched Valencia in their Rafa heyday, this is possession football. This is pass and move.

This is a fine example of it eventually coming together, and another season might have given us the finished article.

That's utterly insane. His spell at Inter was as shite as I've seen from a so-called "good" manager. Not even Hodgson was as bad there. If that's how far your level of critique goes than I'll take "ignorant" as a compliment.

Really? Roy won MORE than 2 trophies during his Inter days?

I suppose if thats the case you were right. Rafa ONLY won 2 trophies in 6 months in Inter. A pretty shite accomplishment by your standards

But but but you are missing the point!

With Roy's 35 years of experience, surely he would get us playing like the best team he has ever managed:

Fulham that finished beneath us.

11th is the realistic goal!

Ah fuck it.

If not Rafa or Kenny back, how about Mourinho's assistant for many years now managing at Porto: Villas-Boas

And get Pako back as his assistant

Hopefully we get the best of Rafa and Mourinho with this combi

They were both brought to play Rafa's style of football, meaning high up to the halfway line defense, with Reina playing the sweeper behind them.

They are both not as good in backs to the wall or counter attacking football, because they are sitting too deep for their natural passing game. They are the type who would try to pass or play their way out of trouble. Thats not a good idea when you are just in front of your keeper

For the current counter attacking system, we probably need more of the Carra type, last minute tackle, throw yourself at the ball type defenders like Carra or Henchoz was for us. Someone like Richard Dunne type player.

YNWA

Pako was good balance he could advise Rafa and tell him when he was wrong and Rafa seemed to listen, he got rid and surrounded himself with yes men, then brought the same yes men to Inter, both situations ended the same. I doubt any if the Harem told Rafa Robbie keane and Gareth Barry were shit, or replacing Alonso with a crock was a good idea, alot more chance Pako would, as 2007 and before Rafa was good in market, when Pako left he was a total disaster

LOL, you really are brainwashed by the media aren't you? Don't seem to have any original opinions I see

As far as I have seen, Rafa surrounded himself with the best in their jobs, be it goalie coaches, to medical experts (finally) to youth coaches. Name me ONE yes men that can be proven.

Replacing Alonso with a crock. Thats a calculated risk and you know it. You should know very well too that there was supposed to be more in the budget for Silva.

Aquilani has been showing that he isn't a waste of money, that he actually is a good player. Its the medical team that let us down last season, as Gerrard, Torres, and even Johnson was crocked quite a bit last season.

Followed him to Inter? How has he failed actually? He said back me or sack me. And Inter sacked him. Even after winning 2 trophies in 6 months. Shows the intention of Inter from the start more than anything.

You mean Pako would have advised Rafa to dicktuck with the 2 cunts, or with Inter? You seriously think so?

As for being good in the market, doesn't seem to hit you that since then Rafa has had a NEGATIVE budget then? That plays NO role whatsoever to our transfers the last 2 years under Rafa?

I will admit that buying Keane and Barry was bullshit, as was buying Johnson. I would imagine that has something to do with the local quota, and perhaps to please the xenophobic fans, wouldn't you? But then again, I have never advocated buying British players from other teams unless they are good enough, not simply to fill a quota

Not 1 signing by Rafa after Pako was sacked improved the player he was replacing or strengthened the team, and in fact was quite inferior, theres enough Rafa threads so no need to go on, but Clough without Taylor, Rafa without Pako theres been plenty of examples, managers need assistants that can tell them when there wrong and be a link to the players not yes men.

If you read "Ballagues book on Rafa a season on the brink", it shows you how important Pako was to LFC and Rafa

Yes, but with Pako, he overworked the players. Every season with him, we started slowly and finished well. Needed to rotate alot due to overtraining

Without Pako, we started strong and ended strong, and were pretty damn good most of the season. Didn't need to rotate that much too.

So whether or not having a tough task master is a good thing is up for debate

BTW, We played our best ever under Rafa WITHOUT Pako towards the end of 08/09.

Lets take a look at Deschamps record both as a player and manager.

 

Player facts:

He has captained France to Euro and World Cup titles and he is the youngest captain to win the CL with Marseille, he has won the CL with two different clubs as a player and he has been part of the team/squad 5 times in a CL final with 3 different clubs, Marseille, Juventus (3) and Valencia, in England he won the FA Cup with Chelsea

 

This leads me to my point about Deschamps being a born and natural leader and he would easily get the respect from everyone based on his achievements as a player, he has been there and done it everywhere.

 

Ligue 1: 89/90, 91/92

Serie A: 94/95, 96/97, 97/98

CL: 92/93, 95/96

Coppa Italia: 95/96

FA Cup: 99/00

European Super Cup: 96

Intercontinental Cup: 96

Euro Cup: 2000

World Cup: 1998

 

Will not bother with runner ups and lost finals.

 

Manager facts:

 

Monaco:

Before Deschamps got the job at Monaco they had just finished 11th in their league, he did not have an immidiate impact and in his first season in charge and his first season as a manager they finished 15th.

The year later he finished second only 1 point behind the then superior Lyon, that season he also won the French league cup for the only time so far in the clubs history.

In his third season he finished 3rd, 4 points behind Lyon, but he also took the club to the Champions League final, where they lost to Mourinho`s Porto.

In his 4th season they again finsihed 3rd and once again Lyon won the title, at the beginning of the next season Deschamps had a fall out with the board over funds made availble for him and he resigned in September, Monaco finished 10th that season and 9th the season after so Deschamps work at Monaco could be seen as the work of a genius considering how they struggled before and after his appointment.

 

Juventus:

Deschamps got the job to get Juventus back into Serie A after they got relegated to Serie B after Inters Moratti had set up the biggest con in history of football so his failure of a club finally could "win" some titles.

 

Juventus started the season with a 17 points deduction, they were the team everyone would beat and they did not get much from referees, rather the quite opposite, the points deduction was later reduced to 9 points.

 

Either way Deschamps got them promoted with already 5 games left and Juventus won Serie B in style in competition with clubs like Napoli, Genoa, Bologna etc and with a 9 points deduction and after losing many of their best players.

 

Deschamps again quit after having a fall out with the board over the direction of the club and transfer funds.

 

His time at Juventus gives me the one question I have about him though, he actually signed Boumsong, but I`m thorn about if I shall see it as mangerial genius to be promoted 5 rounds before the season ends with a 9 points deduction with a team including Boumsong or if I shall see it as a weakness in the transfer market?

 

But he had limited funds at Juve and a squad to fill so I`ll go with the first one on this one.

 

Marseille:

So then Deschamps ends up back were it all started to take off for him where he once lifted the CL thropy as the youngest captain ever.

 

I remember we had the discussion about him that summer when I mentioned him as a possible replacement for Rafa, a lot of people was dead against it because he had not "won" anything and they would rather have Blanc because he had won the Ligue 1 with Bordeaux, my argument back then was that I saw it as just an big achievment to finish only 1 point behind the then superior Lyon and take Monaco to the CL final but it fell on deaf ears.

 

But here we are again 1 1/2 years later and deschamps have now won Ligue 1 and the french league cup in his first season at Marseille and so far this season he has taken them to the last 16 in the CL where they will face the mancs.

 

A win in that match and I guess Deschamps will get off with an easy start should he get this job during the summer.

Boy, standards are low these days

If the French league was our standard, might as well get Houllier who have won it more times, or Le Guen

You're really clueless. He was winning things before his first title, Fa Cup, League Cup, Cup Winners Cup, and its not only trophies that show progress, he was put in charge of a rebuilding job and was clearly improving things off the pitch aswell during that time.

Ah, and a bloody Champions League and FA Cup is not superior then? Finishing second by 7th place in the 6th season is worse than Fergie's

Rafa improved 5 seasons in a row before slipping in his 6th season. And BTW, Rafa's slump of 7th isn't as bad as Fergie's 11th position in 88/89.

And Fergie's record:

86/87 - 11th

87/88 - 2nd

88/89 - 11th

89-90 - 13th

90/91 - 6th

91/92 - 2nd

92/93 - 1st

Seriously, I wouldn't compare Fergie's early record to Rafa's. Rafa is younger at the same time too.

Yep, I'm clueless huh?

Do you think we would have won the league this year with Benitez in charge? We hadn't much money to improve the squad, the ownership situation wasn't resolved until October, the usual suspects continue getting injured, so how would a title challenge materialise?

 

This season would have made it 7 years without winning the league. Well beyond unacceptable.

Ah, you gave the reasons that Rafa or any other manager won't succeed, and still admit its unacceptable.

Which magical manager would turn all our players to supermen then?

So far you are talking out of your ass

Rafa is not the only manager out there who can set this right. There are others. You are dismissing managers from the smaller leagues but wasn't Arsene from there? Wasn't Slur from the Scottish league? You mention Hiddink and Van Gaal both of them were from the smaller Dutch league. It is not the league they are from but the right attitude and philosophy to manage a football club. Mourinho himself is from the Portguese league so your argument that we need to get a big manager from a big league to succeed is baseless.

 

For 4 years Rafa won nothing with us and just failed at a big European club. Suddenly somehow he will come here and win the league? We never had the consistency under Rafa to win the league. We were good in Europe and played well against the big teams but what does that make us? A bloody cup team, that's what.

Yep, Slur was given 6 years of winning nothing before he won his first title. If we used the same yardstick as Rafa is measured, he would be fired long time before even winning anything.

Wenger has won less than Rafa in the same time period competing against the same competition. His team is lauded to high heaven but irrelevant in terms of winning anything.

Like I said, Hiddink and Van Gaal are admittedly on their last job

Mourinho was hired for his CL win, not his league win. Nice try. Besides, although he is a fan, he said himself he would never come here (I suspect because of budgetary reasons)

Never had the consistency to win the league? Yep, 08/09 wasn't good enough by 4 points. By the same measure where does that put Arsene in that same time period? And Mourinho was fired way before Rafa for falling off the pace too.

Just failed at a big european club? You mean winning everything in front of him so far (Italian cup and Club world cup) isn't good enough? Its a 100% trophy record by anyone's standards.

He just said back me or sack me. And they sacked him, showing they never intended to back him.

Twisting it more than that just shows an agenda on your part to try to prove he is a bad manager who doesn't win anything. LOL at your lies

Besides not being the right manager for the club one thing is VERY obvious

Roy is not a fan!

He doesn't talk like a fan, nor does he seem to understand why we the fans behave and think the way we do. He just isn't one of us

It is clear that even our foreign coaches, Houllier and Rafa, were both fans of the club. They both still have intense love for our club, and it can clearly be seen even in their interviews at their other clubs, they still talk about us with love.

For Roy, this is simply another stepping stone, another name on his long list of clubs in his "illustrious" journeyman 35 year career.

He would be just as happy taking on the United job after Fergie, or the Chelsea job. All he wants is more big names to put on his resume.

This is clear for all to see. I don't blame him. Just that it proves again he isn't the right man for the club even on a personal level, let alone professionally

Different world mate. And I don't think we can afford to operate like that in the modern football world, unfortunately.

And there you have it.

Admittedly anti-Rafa

Admittedly anti-Shankly

What wonderful Liverpool fans we have these days.

totally agreed.

 

and if you think this man crush is something. go take a look at the mother of all benitez man crush forum again, this is nothing. when king kenny was being bitch by a forumer, not even one pro rafa dare to defend kenny's honour for fear of bigging him up and make poor rafa small in stature. go take a look.

 

rafa fans there have no honour.

Enjoy Roy, then Coyle, then Deschamps, then whatever. Look back at the old posts, these are the same posters who craved for Roy. Anyone but Rafa.

For fuck's sake man, pull yourself together. Why, when you can name five legend managers from our past, does Rafa now signal the end of any future possible great? Why couldn't we find another legend after Rafa?

 

Oh wait, it's because you have a man-crush on a single manager and refuse to operate under any reasonable logic.

 

 

That's just embarrassing.

Because when we let Houllier go, we got the best manager in Spain, the OTHER best league in the world

Now, we are linked with managers who have only won in minor leagues (Deschamps) or managers who have won nothing at all (Coyle)

Although what Deschamps is doing is decent, but Le Guen and Houllier won that league pretty comfortably and look how they have done here

Other managers who might have done ok are all getting too old like Capello, Hiddink, Van Gaal etc and have publically stated their current job would be their last.

Rijkaard may have been exciting, but to be honest, his Galatasaray attempt has proven that at Barcalona, its the system, not the manager that made them a success. And this suspicion would follow Guodiola too if some reason he is available.

So since no one has brought up anyone exciting, I do hope no one brings up Carra for manager! The scum would win 25 league titles before we reach 19 with this being the case. BTW if you think Rafa is bad with other players, what do you think of Carra as manager? He has already publically lashed out at Alonso, Arbeloa etc on the field.

Mourinho has said he will NEVER take over our club, although he is a long time fan. I suspect he will change his mind if he gets fantasy football money, but I doubt it will happen under the current regime.

I am 50/50 about Kenny. I would hate to see him come and fail, and see the "fans" criticise him

So unless you don't want to win stuff, and are satisfied being the club of yesteryear, here we have a manager who clearly loves us, has a great history in our club, AND already won 2 trophies with Inter (Italian Cup and Club World Cup).

But of course, those deluded here will go for the next hot manager that has won nothing, and we will go through Roy, then Coyle, then Deschamps, then Rijkaard etc. Newcastle here we come

liverpool has as a footballing club failed for too long. The football even at its peak with beneitz does not compare with the way it was played at our 80's plomb. Kenny pls come back, you know how the final third should be attacked. you know, because you played the game at the highest level too.

I agree to a certain point

A club that fully backs a great manager will have more advantages than a club that doesn't.

A Rafa Benitez fully backed years ago would have seen us getting Eto'o, Alves, Ramos etc too. Hell even Simao would have been good on the wings for several years.

Right now we are back to rejects from other teams. The bloody media and "fans" blogging seem to be linking us to SWP, Carlton Cole and Zemora.

If we are Liverpool of the 80s, we would be linked to Carroll and Adam Johnson at least.

Well it is very clear where this is going isn't it?

Rafa IMO is the last great manager of Liverpool FC. A legend that the club put up there with Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish. And this season will be looked at the same as the way we looked back when Dalglish needed a break from the tragedy and wanted back not long after.

I said this when we lost Rafa, and I warned against "Britain's best coach". But still the anti-Rafa brigade had their "anyone but Rafa" knives out. And now its Deschamps or Coyle or whatever the next new hot manager is. And we probably will follow down that path and become the next newcastle.

Many of us so called pro-Rafa cultists remember how long it has been since we felt we could be proud to be one of the challengers. Now all these so called fans think its so easy. Under Souness, Evans we were jokes. Under Houllier we seemed to be grateful to just have a few victories over the Scum and delude outselves to think we were on par. Under Rafa was the first time in a long time I felt we could challenge, even though we had the weakest squad and lowest budget as compared to the leaders of that time ie Scum and Chelsea.

With the crappiest budget and the crappiest support from the board and owners, Rafa survived and thrived competing against the best manager the Scum ever had, the best manager/s Chelsea ever had and the best manager Arsenal ever had, and saw off the challenges of lesser managers who have won in Italy, France, Scotland etc. All top managers who in another time may have been welcome with open arms to our club but failed badly in our league.

He thrived competing against Chelsea and City with a crappy budget, wheeling and dealing and trading up to the players of the calibre he eventually wanted. But of course this is held against him as well. And his transfer record is criticised. Yep, criticised. A manager who brought in a keeper statistically better than Clemence and a striker statistically better than Rush and made players like Gerrard and Carra world class.

And now in this climate of this competition, deluded posters seem to think Deschamps who has only won 1 French title (Houllier won 2 with no effort after us), and Coyle who has won nothing. Truly winning is nothing to these posters

And some will even agree, posting that they want to see pretty football and are not bothered with us winning at all. Harking back to the Roy Evans days pretty much

And lastly Rafa. It will probably go two ways for him. Either he will find a club finally willing to support him, like City, allowing him the budget for top players, and allowing his vision for the long run to build a Barcelona from the youth up. Or he may get cynical and go pure defensive, just to win trophies and move to the next job, like Capello or Mourinho, never again to bother being a builder.

Either way, he will win a hell of a lot more trophies than us in the same period, if at all we will win any more trophies from here on.

I'm really not sure about Torres or what is currently going on in his mind.

 

Gerrard carried us under Houllier's final seaons. Carra was also reliable at the back. Masc was ace for the Argies when he was made captain by Maradona. And for Reina, I really don't think it matters to him who the manager is. He has got his own excellent motivation and ambition levels.

 

Odd patterns? probably. Gerrard has also always done well playing for Ingurland.

Gerrard may have done decently for Houllier, but he truly came to his own under Rafa

Carra was shifted everywhere under Houllier. Under Rafa, he made him his defensive captain in the centre. Played him in a zonal marking system, where his weaknesses could be hidden better

Mascherano only became captain after he played for Rafa. Wasting on the bench at West Ham, he would never have become captain under Maradona.

Reina and Torres were not fully realised until they played for Rafa

Now, post Rafa, on current form, all of them would struggle to get into their national teams if not for their name value.

You will do well to remember it was Torres who scored the winning goal in the European final.

 

I think "inconsistent" is a harsh word to describe Torres. He has scored some important goals for Spain in the last few years. He was unlucky with injuries too and I don't think he was really fit during the last world cup, which was a disaster for him. Messi wasn't that great either in the world cup.

 

I've already said several times in several match threads that Torres is behaving like a whining bitch and I think its because he expected the club to spend money on new players and they didn't. I think he is feeling "sorry" for himself which gets reflected in his game. But there is no forgiving for some of the so called "performances" he has put in so far.

 

No matter how many times you say, I won't agree Torres has become shit because of Rafa's exit.

Yes, he scored the winning goal. But Villa was the star of that tournament until he was unavailable for the finals, wasn't he? Torres wasn't on fire in that tournament either, though that was a good goal at the end

Messi is another excellent example of a system and team strategy getting the most out of a talented player. Playing under a counter attacking coach may actually affect him negatively.

Torres won't be shit but will never hit the same heights again unless he plays for another manager like Rafa.

Yep, Rafa the great motivator :)

I never said there was no difference.

 

I'm just saying the difference is not because of Rafa's exit.

Of course not.

Thats why in a Spanish team brimming with talent, the European and World champions, Torres is inconsistent to say the least too.

I suppose in your opinion, the Spanish team is full of shit players, like here at our club eh?

18 goals in 22 league start.

 

Respectable return.

Yep. For all the criticism of Rafa, they fail to realise:

1) We would have comfortably got through the group stage of the Champions league if we kept more clean sheets. We had no issues scoring (no more than anyone else)

2) Our first 10 matches where we lost so much ground last season, we were scoring a fair amount of goals. The problem is we were conceding like mad too

So for all the criticisms of Rafa that he was too defending, we would have done alot better last season if we DID defend better, but our defenders were out in the first part of the season (Agger, Skrtel and Carra was injured, and Hyypia was allowed to leave)

I personally believe that Rafa wouldn't have fallen so badly if he was MORE stubborn, and didn't listen to the fans and media.

If so maybe he won't have bought and attempted to buy expensive British garbage like Keane, Johnson and Barry and instead get the best from Spain or wherever.

He also maybe wouldn't have tried that hybrid man to man plus zonal marking last season.

Facts, eh?

 

Gerrard and Torres are poor because they are playing with poor players around them. Mainly. Guess who brought those "poor" players to Liverpool?

 

Basically what you are saying above is, Rafa bought some crap players and left some crap players. Sounds like the reason why he got the sack from us. Move on.

You mean with nearly all the same players bar 2 that trashed the Scum, and Real 4 goals?

You simply refuse to admit that Rafa is the cause they were better, right? Even though I have given so many world class players as proof of this?

But again, all you headline readers will always believe Rafa is a defensive manager. So actual facts will destroy your world view won't it?

Funny that Eto'o claims Rafa is an attacking manager. Maybe he knows more about attacking than you eh?

How much of the responsibility of our 7th place finish last season should be placed at the feet of Benitez do you think, Benitaur?

Some. But a manager who has brought us so much belief and constant improvement deserves one off season, don't you think?

Instead here we have posters wanting unproven managers like Coyle, or Deschamps or still defending Roy.

If Rafa, who has done wonders for us is not allowed ONE bad season, I suppose any other manager should be fired too for not winning anything in their first season, or getting top 4 eh?