Hoddy

Steven Gerrard has literally dragged us by th scruff of the neck in so many games, to deny that is pure ignorance mate ( no disrespect)

No, to deny that is just good English mate. Who has he ever 'literally' dragged by their neck's scruff?

One of my pet hates.

Just to redress the balance a little on Piers Morgans side, Morgan while he was editor of the Mirror to be fair to him was actually responsible for Mirror's 'The Real Truth' headline in 1996 when the Jimmy McGovern Docu-Drama was gaining publicity momentum for Hillsborough. He'd been given a copy of it prior to it's airing and Brian Reade says Morgan watched it in his office, wept and pledged to do whatever he could to help.

 

Morgan went on to urge every reader to watch the Hillsborough documentry and the followed it with petitions and days of coverage. He sent Brian Reade to Liverpool City Council to tell them that the Mirror would be behind any moves for a fresh inquiry. I remember for days after the airing of the documentary The Mirror were hounding Duckinfield who was of course then retired on a full pension. Part of the Mirrors backing for us over Hillsborough was probably to stick it to The Sun but all the same, at least Morgan tried to do something while he was editor at the Mirror.

 

Unfortunately all we got was a scrutiny rather than a new inquiry but at least Morgan and the Mirror tried. Fair play to him for that much.

I've read Morgan's book, and in it he mentioned how he was asked to contribute to a book whereby semi-famous wannabes write a tribute about their heroes/icons. His contribution to said book?

Kelvin Mackenzie.

I think this was totally to stick it to The Sun.

I don't think you are wrong Al.

 

Ironic though that in the desperate days of 03-04 Gerrard did as much as anyone that year and when he was given the captaincy that season he was fucking phenomenal. He really respected GH even though he probably knew we needed a change of manager. Now he just seems bogged down by all the shite and tactical straightjackets the manager has on the team and is thinking his only chance of major glory for the rest of his career is the World Cup in the summer. I have a feeling he will be class in the World Cup.

Then, if true, that's a complete fucking disgrace (and again, I emphasise the 'if' part, cos no-one except Gerrard knows exactly what's going through his mind).

But there seems to be a hypocrisy on these boards when it comes to the demarkation between the manager and his players, and nowhere is this more obvious than when it comes to Steven Gerrard.

For example, I keep reading about how Gerrard deserves some slack for playing shit because of all the great games he's played, the great goals he's scored, and all the times he's got us out of the shit ("How dare you slag off Steven Gerrard," I hear people say).

Well what about all the games won by the tactical decisions of Benitez?

I keep hearing how Gerrard is only playing shit because he dislikes the current manager so much.

Yet Benitez shouldn't let his differences with the regime above him affect his ability to manage whatsoever.

I keep hearing how Benitez wormed and tricked his way to a super-duper undeserved contract last year.

Yet no-one mentions the fact he couldn't buy certain players in the summer because of payrises to a group of players, which included Steven Gerrard.

I hear how no-one should expect Gerrard to suddenly become a captain who gees players up with an arm round the shoulder, because Gerrard's never been that sort of skipper.

Yet Benitez needs to change his cold and ruthless distance NOW, the stubborn motherfucker.

I could go on. The point here isn't that Benitez hasn't got flaws - he clearly has - but there seems to be a view round here lately that all the shit flies in one direction and all roads of blame lead to Benitez. In terms of who'll pay with their job, this is sadly true (as is football's wont) - but it doesn't mean he's responsible for every single thing that happens to Liverpool Football Club.

I've fallen out of love with Premier League football in a massive way. For so, so many reasons. I can't help but shake the same feelings I get when looking at politics in that everything you are being fed is just false and fabricated. Player X dives, Manager Y told him to, Manager X's team played shit but blames the ref, Match of the day gives it's weak, transparent and thoughtless take on it.

 

I like about a dozen people in football. That can't be right.

Gerrard summed this up for me a few seasons ago following the Rob Styles penalty debacle at home against Chelsea (when Malouda canoned off Finnan and got the spot-kick from it). In the aftermath afterwards he came out and said how Styles should apologise to the Liverpool players for that. I thought to myself, 'Hmm... I presume you're going to ask some of the players you captain, and the England players you team up with, and your good self, to apologise every time you dive and knowingly try and con the referee?' (At this point I'd just like to mention that Steven Gerrard's not the worst - but it was his apology demand which caught my eye).

It just shows how far and fucked up things have become when the one person who you can guarantee's not cheating - albeit sometimes decisions are so bad you think they must be - is decried, while those who do the deceiving do so cos 'it's all part of the game Gary'.

Two sentences sum up this fucked-up analogy for me:

"The referee's just not letting this game flow" (as if he's got any say in how many fouls a team chooses to make)

and

"The referee's let himself be conned there."

Brilliant.

Hit Gerrard a slap and tell him to put some effort in.

No you can't do that, because Gerrard used to win us some matches - so you have to cut him some slack (even though he's been cutting his own for a large portion of the season)!

If you look at the gumph they've written advertising this bollocks, they've put the Man Utd score at 3-2, the fucking idiots.

Even when they're trying, they're still fucking failing.

Yeah I think so, and as I said I think it can have an effect in special circumstances, but generally it means nothing. My original point is that the fans are not a problem where LFC are concerned, despite what some people try to claim.

In principle I agree with you Ian, but I don't think booing while we were still top of the league last season particularly helped. If that had been fans from any other club, many fans at Liverpool would have been appalled.

Many thanks for the answers so far, all.

Anybody who hasn't answered so far, feel free to keep 'em coming.

Cheers,

Dave

Hey all,

Some of you might remember I did the same thing around this time last year.

Basically, I'm going to a mate's for New Year's (food, drinks and games), and he's asked me to be in charge of games. So I'm doing Family Fortunes - minus the humongous prick that is Vernon Kay.

To do this, I'm trying to gather my own data - mainly just so I can say the words "My survey says" - and I was wondering, if anyone has a free minute, if you can take the time to give me answers for each of these.

One answer for each; just the first thing that comes into your head; remember, there is no right or wrong answer.

Well there is, but it can't be worse than some I've had so far... can it?

Cheers in advance all,

Dave

---

An animal you cannot fit into a car

A food that has one or more holes in it

A bad place to fall asleep

Something you lose when you get older

A sport which involves throwing something

Someone you wouldn't swear in front of

Someone or something whose existence has never been seen

A number you might have to memorise

Something that comes in pairs

An animal with horns

A nickname for a slim person

A famous person known by only one name

Something associated with Liverpool

A boy mentioned in a nursery rhyme

Something a Frenchman would say

A mode of transport you can walk in

Something you can do on water

Something with a red light in it

Something people might be allergic to

Some famous brothers

A jacket potato topping

A weapon in the game of Cluedo

An item of clothing a woman might borrow from a man

Something taken from a hotel as a souvenir

Something you put on walls

I find it unbelievable that people could get excited about the prospect of that utter cunt being manager of our football club.

Absolutely phenomenal.

It's really not that hard to ignore.

 

The commentary makes absolutely no difference to the match, the players can't hear it.

 

Which is why I can never understand why people spend the whole first half of games looking for streams with English commentary on here, when there are better streams without.

Sorry mate, I wasn't clear - I was talking about the fans, not the commentary (even though the commentary winds me up to fuck anyway). My point was even when you're trying to block everything else out - not listening to the 'analysts' before/during/after the match, not reading papers, etc etc - there's still a way for the media's numbskull thinking to seep through. If it's not the fans at the game, it's the peope who come to the office. If not those... and so on and so on.

It could easily happen. They've got good enough players, one of the best managers in the world, and if Greece can win an international tournament, why the fuck not?

And I think - even taking into account all the hype, all the thick England fans, all those who'd spend the next four (thousand) years talking about how football's come back home - I could just about stomach it, save for one fact:

The picture of John Terry lifting up the World Cup.

Don't get wound up by what the media says.

 

We (or our players) don't have to be loved.

It's hard not to get wound up though - there's very little escape from it.

Case in point: last night's game. Every time Eduardo gets the ball:

"BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."

Why? Because he's the only player who ever dived? No - it's cos the media spent a week replaying and talking about the dive, and football fans are (in general) a bunch of fucking sheep who can't watch the game themselves and decide there are a good load of divers far worse than Eduardo.

The most obvious example of anti-Liverpoool bias I've seen in years came on the 'Soccer Saturday' panel last week. They were talking about either Blackburn or Aston Villa - I can't remember which - but the talk came to Stephen Warnock:

STELLING: So, Aston Villa have signed Stephen Warnock. Good signing fellahs?

NICHOLAS: Yeah. I could never understand why Liverpool got rid of him.

An uncomfortable silence, as Stelling realises just what the fuck Nicolas has just said.

STELLING: Err... but it's BLACKBURN who've just sold him now Charlie.

NICHOLAS: Yeah well...

This for me says it all. Pundits and analysts are now so ingrained with looking for faults in anything Liverpool do that they can't see the wood for the trees. I mean, giving us for selling a player years ago when BLACKBURN have just fucking sold him. What the fuck?! I don't know if it's something that just started with Benitez (cos a lot of 'neutrals' obviously dislike the guy), or if it's something that's been building towards the club for a while, but whenever someone says that it's all in our heads all this anti-LFC stuf... just think about the example above.

We were shite in the opening 3 games last season too - and against Liege - but we got away with it.

 

Perhaps the early concern is the pessimist view taking hold that we overachieved last season and that we aren't actually that great?

 

Re Lucas there were numerous occasions when he was selected ahead of Alonso last season and was found wanting. It smacked a little of the whole Houllier/Heskey love-in. He was good against Stoke, but the praise afterwards was over the top from Rafa.

 

Managers may want to protect abused players but there is only one solution to that; the player has to perform to the highest standards. Telling everyone how great Lucas is doesn't make it so, and the aggravation increases amongst supporters.

Good points mate, and I'd add to those by saying we've probably been better in these first three games than we were in last season's: granted, Spurs was shocking, but Stoke was good and the Villa game didn't warrant a 3-1 loss (just like the Boro game last season didn't warrant a 2-1 win). It's a results-based business though, and this is why people are so antsy (coupled with the dire situation off the pitch).

I can see what you're saying re: the Lucas/Rafa analogy to Heskey/Houllier; however, the two situations aren't really the same. Lucas has had the monkey on his back here from day one and has become, oftentimes, a very unfair scapegoat (that's a hell of a lot of animals to be putting up with). He's got a lot more character than people give him credit for, and genuinely looks as though he wants to play... regardless of the natural amount of ability. Heskey had all the ability in the world, but by the time his Liverpool career was in downfall neither the heart nor the inclination to make a better fist of things. That was what particularly grated whenever Houllier came out to defend him.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, right now, Lucas is obviously doing the best job he can do. It's not his fault he's not Xabi Alonso, or that he's been thrust into the midfield just after Alonso's gone. From Benitez's point of view, he's doing nothing wrong. Heskey was different; everyone knew what he could bring to the table (cos he'd done it consistently for at least a season) - he just wasn't doing it anymore.

Has Balague really said that much?

 

 

 

There is a black cloud over Anfield and the mood at Liverpool’s Melwood training ground could not have been darker this week.

 

The atmosphere is more brooding than the usual despondency that follows a defeat: small issues have been blown out of proportion as the blame game takes hold. It happens at every club, but when expectations are great, the disappointment is even greater when things go wrong.

 

After defeat to Villa, Rafa Benitez highlighted the poor form of key players; while some players shifted that blame elsewhere: citing tactics at corners, for example.

 

Jamie Carragher was particularly vocal in the aftermath of defeat, telling everyone things must improve.

 

The despondency of defeat prompted a feeling, in certain quarters of the club, that Liverpool will struggle to mount the title challenge they anticipated and that Alonso’s absence has not been addressed: Mascherano and Lucas are too similar and, because neither can open up the opposition, there is an over-reliance upon Gerrard to create.

 

Rival managers even think Liverpool have become predictable. Riera’s absence remains a mystery - but appears an attempt to focus the player rather than a personal vendetta. Seen through the lens of defeat, every tactical decision seems wrong – yet perspective is required and with the scoreline at 2-1 against Villa, Liverpool seemed capable of turning the game - it was an individual error that killed off the fightback.

 

So, expectations at Anfield have been brought crashing down to earth, yet are they not more realistic now?

 

Liverpool fans have spent the summer dreaming of Villa, Silva, Ribery, and – currently - Robben or Carrick, despite the fact that the possibility of such purchases belongs to clubs with very different financial circumstances.

 

What about Benitez following those false resignation rumours? He is seen as more distant than ever, but stays true to his course in the knowledge that he has heard the same criticism before after a poor start: not to mention last season when Liverpool ultimately finished four points behind the Manchester United of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney...

 

Yes, things could be better – and yes, there'll be more moody weeks at Melwood. But it’s too early to start drawing conclusions and, based upon previous experience, unfair.

 

I have no doubt Liverpool will challenge for the title.

Is this the article in which Rafa supposedly 'had a dig' at Gerrard and Carragher? Holy shit, Rafa's gone to war here hasn't he?! There's no coming back from this - it's fucking on now...

Bollocks.

As is the fury regarding his (basically non) comments on Gerrard. In the same piece in which he's supposedly castigated his captain, he's actually praised him and said it's only cos he's got such high standards that people can notice his form's not been sky high these last few games. He's obviously been questioned about Gerrard here - what's he supposed to say:

"Yes Gerrard's not been playing that well, but have you seen how shit Babel's been playing? And what about that Lucas?"

What good would that do? Lucas is already under a shit-load of unnecessary pressure everytime he takes the field. Some fans criticise Benitez for being a poor man-manager... then when he tries to protect one of his players in the press he gets shit for not telling it like it is... then when he mentions maybe Gerrard isn't playing up to his usual standards he gets shit for telling it like it is. I can see the double-standards, for sure, but like I said, not every situation's the same. Some players are more in need of the manager's backing than others; Steven Gerrard has never been booed onto the field, there isn't a mass groan around the stadium every time Gerrard misplaces a ball.

And why should Gerrard be above what is nothing more than a mild acknowledgment that he could be playing better. I've heard the comments Benitez made be mentioned in the same breath as Houllier's outburst around the time of the Basle game; this is NOTHING like that... at all. This is just a manager reminding his best player that he could be playing better - nothing more.

But going back to the original point about Rafa supposedly coming at Gerrard and Carragher via the media. I can't help but think back to a few seasons ago, following a home game against Sunderland I think (one in which Carragher had played right-back), when there was an article in the News of the World from someone who's since co-written Carragher's autobiography, stating how displeased Jamie was with being played at right-back. This was around a time when Benitez's position was severely under-strength. Would this have been received with the same volition as a nothing quote from his manager has been?

He wasn't an authority on bears at all.

A particularly telling moment was where Treadwell saw the group of people hunting bears. Now, as the reason he was supposedly there was to protect the bears, you'd think he'd have done something. But no... he just stood there and did absolutely nothing. That told me he was full of shit really. Or, at least, the reasoning that he gave to being there was full of shit. I think, like people have said earlier in the thread, he was on a bit of a suicide mission. That and he just wanted to be famous. The bear-lovin' was just a means to that end in my eyes.

There is making mistakes and winning 11 Premier League titles which would more than comensate for that I suppose. I notice Moyes isn't in your argument though. A manager who has spent his money wisely generally.

The difference that Moyes has had to make up compared to Rafa is non-comparable though. When Rafa came in, people wanted him to go from 4th to champions. This when the Abramovich era was just kicking off. With all respect to the job Moyes has done, the expectations surrounding Rafa have been far higher.

Don't get me wrong, Benitez has made mistakes in the transfer market, but then so has everybody. His mistakes are just highlighted so much more, a) because of the relatively low amount of money we have compared to Man Utd and Chelsea, and b) because of the bridge he had to gap to these two teams. It's been said thousands of times on this forum before, so I won't bleat on about it in too much depth, but the squad Houllier left us with needed an absolute overhaul, meaning that in his tenure Benitez has had to replace 9 first-teamers. And that isn't just replacing 9 first-teamers to compete with the likes that Everton are competing with, it's replacing 9 first-teamers and being expected to compete with Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea.

Now, in his time at the club, we've plugged the gap on Chelsea, plugged the gap on Arsenal and, at the end of this season, were breathing down the necks of Man Utd. This, added to the fact that we're now undoubtedly one of the best 5 teams in Europe, is a worthy, worthy achievement in my opinion. Have mistakes been made along the way? Hell yeah. People will forever argue about the 'quantity over quality' route, and nobody knows whether buying less-but-higher-priced players would have got us here sooner, but the fact is we are here. On the precipice. And no, some of the players he's bought to get us here aren't up to scratch, but as has already been pointed out, this happens to any manager. It's just that anything Rafa does is so magnified due to our current financial situation.

I keep reading on the forum statements along the line of 'Rafa just HAS to get things right this summer. If he doesn't, we're fucked'... which may be true, but do you think Man Utd fans are saying that about Ferguson? Or Chelsea fans about whoever the fuck they bring in? No. Cos their financial plight is nowhere near as perilous as ours. Which, allied to the complete rebuilding job that Rafa had from the beginning, is why comparisons can never be properly made.

You talk about the fact that Ferguson's 11 league titles give him a kind of 'amnesty' on his shit signings... but then he's been here since the fucking Tyrannosaurus Rex, and it took him long enough time to get his first one. So why shouldn't Rafa complain about lack of money (I'm sure when he complains about lack of money he doesn't just mean what he's spent - he means it in a much broader sense, i.e. the amount of money he needs to replace what he 'inherited' vs the amount of money Ferguson needs to keep topping up his team)?! If you were in a job competing against someone, and people were constantly asking you why you weren't competing better, and you felt the two playing fields weren't level, I'm pretty sure you'd keep telling people why?

And I'm sorry, but saying the blame lies 50/50 between Rafa and the Yanks is... well it's pretty ridiculous really. If we'd have someone less competent than Benitez these last couple of years whilst CL qualification and progression was pretty much paramount, we'd be chasing players a lot worse than Sylvain Distin, that's for sure.

Just a quick thing- me and my mate are booking the National Express to get to Manchester on the Sunday and the last one leaves from there back to Liverpool for midnight. Anybody have an idea what time the concert would finish and would we have enough time to get back to the depot?

We live in the surrounding areas mate, and got a leaflet through the door yesterday; the leaflets state that the concerts will finish at 11pm.

Can hear the sound-checks from our house this evening. Fuck me, it's gonna be a loud few days round here.

Hughes will be gone by christmas

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

Do you think it'll be his own (mis)doing, or just trigger-happy Arabs?

Aye. At the moment I'm quite fascinated by it all as it appeals to my FM side (even though I've never actually played that game). Whether that will continue as they steadily become more of a threat, I've no idea.

I've been saying for ages... if Man City were smart, they'd drop the Kaka-like stupidity bids for a season or two, and concentrate on players like Given, Bridge, Barry, Bellamy - seasoned Premier League players who can get them up to 5th, maybe 4th if all things go well - then build on these players with superstars of Kaka's ilk.

You've got to get a good basis first, otherwise you're just throwing big players at it and hoping something sticks. Which is evidently a method that Mark Hughes is not comfortable working with (I'm with you Paul - I think, given time and backing, Hughes will be a success).

Is it not a bit hypocritical to criticise an opposing manager for being ungracious defeat, as a lot of us have done with Fergie and Mourinho, and then praising our own manager for doing the same?

But it's not hypocritical Ian - he was gracious... albeit to the club rather than the individual.

The only reason this is even becoming an issue is because the press led him to answer the question in that way. Like others have said, have they ever gone up to Ferguson and asked him to congratulate Mourinho... Wenger? If he does congratulate Ferguson he looks weak as piss, if he doesn't, it's a good few days of 'headlines' for them. Sadly, you've bought into the story they were trying to sell.

You will have to keep on vomiting then mate. Like Chris I respect Ferguson and his achievements not just at United but also breaking the monopoly of the Glasgow clubs at Aberdeen and he did a great job at St.Mirren. Like it or not the man is a great, great manager and I think you will find a few of our current crop of players also feel the same way especially Carragher. It maybe was a figure of speech mate but a little bit more tact wouldn't have gone amiss. Just saying like.

I respect his achievements (particularly the way he's successfully adapted through two decades of ever-changing football), but I cannot respect the way he's conducted himself while doing it. There is a WORLD of difference between this and what Benitez said about him. Benitez only said what any Liverpool fan has been saying for years - and was right in everything that he said. To compare the two 'rants' and put them in similar brackets is unfair to Rafa in my opinion.

Being dramatic is not exciting for me sorry, all the soap opera shite is the dramatic part of it. As for films and all that, what would you rather do, watch a film about a liverpool match or watch the real thing. I know what id prefer

Eh? That doesn't even make any sense to the point I was making. It seems we're on two different strands here.

Professional wrestling is NOT a sport. It's theatre masquerading as sport (although oftentimes the athleticism involves mean the physical risks are just as high). It's EastEnders... except that instead of being a drama about gangsters selling fruit and veg, it's telling its stories through the mechanics of fighting.

I like watching films, I like watching Liverpool matches, I like watching boxing and I like watching wrestling. Because I like one doesn't mean I can't like the other. They're all forms of entertainment in some form.

Each to thier own but there are plenty of real combat sports where the outcome isnt predetermined and therefore more exciting to watch

Why do you think wrestling became pre-determined? So it could become more exciting to watch.

Films are pre-determined; TV dramas are pre-determined; plays are pre-determined. They're exciting to watch due to the fact someone's sat down beforehand and thought out a plan of how to make them as exciting as they could be. This is why some people like wrestling: because it's theatre.

I'm not saying that genuine combat contests can't be exciting - just that, by its scripted nature, pro wrestling is inherently designed to be as dramatically exciting as possible.