Numero Veinticinco

I don’t think it’s so much the policies, after all they really aren’t that bad. It’s that he is 1) Labour 2) got links to a lot of stuff that is easily picked up on. Iran TV show, the way he has spoken about Israel, meetings with questionable people, etc. Does that mean he is any of the things they say?! No. But he is an easy target. Out of interest, what will they say about Starmer’s TV show on Iranian TV? On his meetings with people with links to questionable organisations, etc?

If it wasn't so sad, it's be funny. Wait, it still is funny. But also sad.

Bottom line, I think there's somebody who could increase Labour's chances of winning based on the same manifesto; even more so if they change the manifesto to make it a bit smarter and more focused. Given the opposition, I think they could slam-dunk the fuckers, actually. That said, rather than go that direction, I think Labour members will go deeper down that rabbit-hole. I think there's a big split coming. Some will rejoice because it will get the 'right wing' like the centre-leftists out of the party, but they will relegate themselves to being also-rans.

Yeah, it resets it to how it was from the factory. So you back your stuff up or upload it to the cloud so it automatically comes back to the device. Mate, if you're not already doing that, you're asking for trouble if you lose it or it goes pop. Either iCloud or Google.

Fucking hell, hold on a minute. You were the one talking about 'mythical' leaders as if I'm some idiot making up some bullshit. If you're going to finish a reply to me like that, you're going to have to expect that I push back. I've no desire to fall out with you or talk to you in a sneering way, but it's a two way street mate. Let's start again. We've always got on just fine, there's no reason for that to change. I'd ask 'what radical agenda?' You and others have maintained - rightly in my view - that the manifesto put out by Labour isn't radical or extreme leftist as portrayed by some; it's actually fairly tame. With that in mind, why would I suggest Starmer would fight for a radical agenda? I don't think he would, I don't think he should, and I don't think it's on the table. I'm not even sure a radical agenda would get anywhere near being popular enough to win an election. If that's what we are talking about, rather than the type of stuff Labour is doing at the moment, then I would agree with the 'nobody' stuff, because the bottleneck is no longer the leadership, it's the agenda. I'm not sure Corbyn succeeded on any of these markers outside of a large grassroots following. Actually, on the last one I don't think Corbyn has anything like a coherent foreign policy background. I agree there's a need to shape the country to deal with the challenges that face us, but very little of that is to do with things like OFSTED or Renationalisation etc. We - meaning those of us on the left - just aren't being very smart about this. We are tactically and, more importantly, strategically very poor at the moment. I doubt we disagree very much about our desired objectives, I think our main disagreements come from the best way to get there.

Of course there’s no evidence for it, it’s a future event. There is only reason and logic to back up judgments. Surely it’s self evident that there are MPs in the Labour Party that don’t have the baggage that Corbyn does and therefore couldn’t be attacked for it? I don’t know anything about mythical leaders, I do know about real MPs with real ability in the real world. We can discuss those if you want, although it’s obvious how that will go. I suspect you’ll say they’re either right wing lunatics who will betray the party or they’re not a patch on Corbyn. As you know, I like Starmer. There are others, though. I do doubt you’d much like them, though. That’s fine, it’s up to you who you support of course. Surely it would be nice to have a leader who was popular with a bigger section of the electorate though. We have to quite unpopular leaders going into the next election.

In reference to Labour members doubling down, I did. But yeah, in addition, I think they could have a smarter manifesto. Prime objective should be winning an election and building on that. In my opinion, of course.

Nope, I’m definitely not agreeing. I’m saying somebody with the same manifesto would be more likely to win because he’s way less of a target and would be a better leader and better able to sell their vision.

Yes, and that should be what he tries. It could be something like his music files are corrupted in some way, so it'd be wise to check those first. Otherwise, reset the fucker.

Troll.

I quite strongly disagree with that, mate. I think a large part of the reason he has been targeted in the way he has is because he's an easy target. A career-long backbencher with views that vary all the way out to the far left, has had dealings with questionable characters (certainly in ways that others who could lead the party do not), and has long been in that same left-wing school of thought that the likes of Galloway come from regarding Europe, Iran, Israel, etc. Any Labour leader will be attacked, there's no doubt about that, but it's obvious that Corbyn is beyond an easy target. I think there are people in the Labour Party that will win both the easy votes, by not being awkward and being able to sell themselves and their vision in a significantly more coherent way, and the tougher votes that will come from other parts of the political spectrum (which, to some, is a dirty concession to make. To others, it's what wins a majority and a platform to actually do a single thing you want). If Corbyn is ever going to win an election, it will be this one and it'll be because he has perhaps the most hideous PM in history in the most bizarre circumstances in history. Not because he can take a hit and is squeaky clean. If he loses, he will surely stand aside. My fear is that Labour members will double down and select somebody who isn't particularly electable and has a more radical agenda. That's fine, that's their prerogative, I just don't think it's going to win an election. So we will likely end up, as I've said many times before, have 0% of their dream agenda, 100% of a Tory agenda, when we could have had 80% of an agenda people on the left are comfortable with. Still, it's the choice for the Labour Party members. I'm not one of those and unless they want to get serious about getting into power, and put pragmatism before idealism, I doubt I ever will be.

If he's ever going to win an election or lead a coalition, now is his chance. If he doesn't win this upcoming election, he should obviously stand down. However, it would be almost ridiculous for Labour to start the process of electing a new leader now. First, there's so much going on that it's the wrong time; second, how can you expect the country to vote for somebody who has been in the job five minutes; finally, it'd be unfair and tactically unwise for the next leader to still be fighting this Brexit shit. At best, he/she wins an election and has to sort Brexit out. At worst, they lose an election and are throwing shit against the wall of a Tory/Brexit Party coalition. Like it or not - and I don't - but Corbyn 'has the wheel'.

Elliot looked to have potential from what I saw.

Yeah, deffo.

@viRdjil Haha. Fucking hell, you humourless bitch.

Fucking hell.

Holy shit. Dejan ‘is Ardja still pretending I’m better than Matip’ Lovren still plays for us? Nice.

Watched 10 minutes. Want it to turn it off. This cup is wank. Something, something rhyming with off.

This is absolutely unreal.

And 144% of us agree to disagree on that.

Definitely not a troll. Just posting things like this, randomly and detached from the conversation, with the honest, humble intent of a good, polite debate. Not a cunt. Nope.

Indeed. There’s a real lack of bite to Labour.

I do hate the BBC.

Or just go down.

Yes, you have to vote tactically to get the Tories out. That's something I've been preaching on here for the better part of a decade; you'll find no disagreement from me there. I'm just saying, it's not the best chance of staying. So if he's voting for any other reason that to derail the party he voted in, then really it doesn't matter. Labour aren't going to win there, so they could have literally any policy and it wouldn't matter. As for the 'mental' thing, I think you're just plain wrong. Very little room for agreement or even understanding on that one.