Wanted: Suarez - video proof of diving

[phc1965]

Stu Monty > The fact that he simulates being fouled and simulates injuries, and that's why he gets a completely justified reputation

 

so how come this fella doesn't justifiably have the same reputation. in this clip he does exactly what you are complaining about in regards to suarez. even the feigning injury bit.

 

 

 

 

how many players do man utd have on their books that do exactly, on a regular basis what it is you claim is the reason(s) for suarez getting his reputation.

 

 

you dont have to name them all it will take too long.

[JohnnyH]

Is this the womens free speech day or something?

 

All joking aside, I think you have serious mental health issues. You are just extremely odd. You need to get yourself checked.

 

I negged you because you said "anyone claiming Suarez doesn't dive is doing it out of (very) blind loyalty". I vehemently disagree with you there. Football is a contact sport and I want to see 50-50 tackles like Shelvey/Evans called play on but Suarez's case is different. His style of play relies on provoking contact and beating his marker with reflexes.

 

The 'diver' tag has come about because refs have no idea how to adjudicate his game with any degree of competence. That with the underlying British bias that a game with a high foul count is a negative creates a situation where, unless you win a significant portion of fouls when going down, you will inevitably in British culture be called a diver. You simply aren't allowed to take the piss out of opponents/nutmeg them on a regular basis. British refs aren't reffing objectively, they're imposing a stringently normative set of rules to an increasingly wide array of cheating like shirt tugging, arms over shoulders, bundling into someone from behind.

 

If divers didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them to protect referees.

 

Thank you for replying Hades. Just to explain (for you and Mr 72). I think negs without explanations just spoil the entire point of a football forum. We're here to debate and, God forbid, I'm willing to have my mind changed on things. For me, you should either debate or ignore the thread. A neg is fine and in most cases funny, but add a comment with it so the conversation can go on.

 

With regards to your points above, I completely disagree with you that Suarez doesn’t dive. I actually think it’s so absurd to think otherwise that I find the idea of Liverpool fans trying to say Suarez has never dived embarrassing.

 

Oddly enough though, I agree with most everything else you say. Suarez does rip the piss out of players and does therefore get clattered a lot more and I also want to see more contact let go. But that’s not what I’m talking about. My point is that plenty of times Suarez comes in contact with a player in a completely legitimate way; he has just thrown himself to the floor. He dives. I can’t even see how this is up for debate. Importantly though, I don’t think he dives any more than anyone else out there, it’s just that he’s the nasty racist foreigner and Mr Ferguson also highlighted it, so he has got the name above anyone else.

[moof]

How can anyone* not like Suarez? He's fucking ace!

 

* any Liverpool fan

[JohnnyH]

How can anyone* not like Suarez? He's fucking ace!

 

* any Liverpool fan

 

I love him. But if he played for the Mancs/Chelsea/Arsenal/City/Probably anyone in England, I’d probably hate him, and I think every other Liverpool fan would too. I also think that we’d have a thread on here mocking what every forum of another team it was that was trying to suggest Suarez has never dived.

[ngogswilly]

Yeah but I don't think many people were saying he never dived.

 

Most people were pointing out hes just not as bad as many other really chronic divers and yet Suarez has been by far the most villified.

 

I know the argument could be made Suarez shouldn't drop so easy when theres contact and he shouldn't make such a meal out of it afterwards etc... etc...

 

I think most people would accept that, what most people won't accept though is that he deserves to be targeted the way he has. Its all good and fine us saying "Well he should stop being such a fanny" or whatever and thats supposed to make it all better.

 

I think thats a ludicrous point to make, the man has been the victim of a fairly well played character assasination and its not going to stop so easily.

[Stu Monty]

Stu Monty > The fact that he simulates being fouled and simulates injuries, and that's why he gets a completely justified reputation

 

so how come this fella doesn't justifiably have the same reputation. in this clip he does exactly what you are complaining about in regards to suarez. even the feigning injury bit.

 

 

 

 

how many players do man utd have on their books that do exactly, on a regular basis what it is you claim is the reason(s) for suarez getting his reputation.

 

you dont have to name them all it will take too long.

 

That's not the point though. I'm not arguing other people shouldn't have a reputation for diving.

 

Rooney not having a reputation for it doesn't mean that Suarez' reputation is any less justified. He simulates contact and simulates injury, regardless of other people doing it HIS reputation is justified.

[John McClane]

haters gonna hate

The media/ fans need a public enemy number 1. It is Suarez. If Terry wasn't former england captain, it would be him. It bloody should be him, racism (proven) terrorist slurs, drunkness, bungs for tours and lets not forget sleeping with mates girlfriend. - On that, incredible how nobody gives Giggs flak?

[Whelan]

Rooney not having a reputation for it doesn't mean that Suarez' reputation is any less justified. He simulates contact and simulates injury, regardless of other people doing it HIS reputation is justified.

 

Yes it does!

 

Suarez is not getting decisions, and is on the end of reckless challenges that go unpunished as a consequence of this reputation, so the fact that other players with the same behaviour, do not have a reputation that leads to blatant fouls not given and reckless challenges unpunished is not down to previous behaviour - otherwise all players who dive would have a reputation - the fact that there is no consistency over who gains a reputation and who doesn't suggest that his reputation is not based entirely upon his behaviour. If you don't think that their is an ulterior motive to referencing this reputation then you have no right to be calling other people blinkered. Whether you agree or not, there is a fair argument that Suarez was given a reputation just as much as others argue he earned it.

 

And, again contact isn't a foul as you keep repeating but you cannot demonstrate what amount of contact constitutes a foul, and you cannot provide any evidence of this - what doesn't consitute contact to you, will to another - it all depends upon interpretation - which again leads to the question of how particular decisions are intepreted.

[JohnnyH]

Yeah but I don't think many people were saying he never dived.

 

Most people were pointing out hes just not as bad as many other really chronic divers and yet Suarez has been by far the most villified.

 

I know the argument could be made Suarez shouldn't drop so easy when theres contact and he shouldn't make such a meal out of it afterwards etc... etc...

 

I think most people would accept that, what most people won't accept though is that he deserves to be targeted the way he has. Its all good and fine us saying "Well he should stop being such a fanny" or whatever and thats supposed to make it all better.

 

I think thats a ludicrous point to make, the man has been the victim of a fairly well played character assasination and its not going to stop so easily.

 

Sadly, I can only think that a few are actually saying that Suarexz never ever dives.

 

I 100% agree with everything you say. 100%. But people just want to see what they want and seem to think I, and others, are saying Suarez is the worst diver ever. I’m just saying that the notion that Suarez has never dived is laughable. He’s no worse than any other, and dives less then plenty who don’t have a name for it, but he still dives on occasion. To say anything else is ludicrous.

 

The character assassination was well orchestrated by Ferguson to lessen a very dangerous player; and it’s worked a treat.

[Major Tom]

The character assassination was well orchestrated by Ferguson to lessen a very dangerous player; and it’s worked a treat.

 

Suarez apparently had a hard time in Holland for the same thing. Was that Ferguson as well? I am being facetious with the question of course, but people on here give Ferguson way, way too much credit when it comes to manipulating things. Many of you must think he's some fucking genius the way you think he gets people to do things and follow his agenda.

 

He's just a bitter 70yo drunk. And a lot of the press know it, and don't dance to his tune.

[ngogswilly]

Sadly, I can only think that a few are actually saying that Suarexz never ever dives.

 

I 100% agree with everything you say. 100%. But people just want to see what they want and seem to think I, and others, are saying Suarez is the worst diver ever. I’m just saying that the notion that Suarez has never dived is laughable. He’s no worse than any other, and dives less then plenty who don’t have a name for it, but he still dives on occasion. To say anything else is ludicrous.

 

The character assassination was well orchestrated by Ferguson to lessen a very dangerous player; and it’s worked a treat.

 

I agree there 100%, to say he doesn't dive isn't true. He does. Its just that in my eyes(as you rightly say) hes no worse than anyone else for it.

 

Suarez apparently had a hard time in Holland for the same thing. Was that Ferguson as well? I am being facetious with the question of course, but people on here give Ferguson way, way too much credit when it comes to manipulating things. Many of you must think he's some fucking genius the way you think he gets people to do things and follow his agenda.

 

He's just a bitter 70yo drunk. And a lot of the press know it, and don't dance to his tune.

 

Thats a fair point Tom.

 

But I think its been clear that before Ferguson went all guns blazing on him Suarez was getting by ok. Since shittypants said what he said though its been open season on Suarez.

 

I think that shows he has had some influence on hows things have turned out.

[Major Tom]

Thats a fair point Tom.

 

But I think its been clear that before Ferguson went all guns blazing on him Suarez was getting by ok. Since shittypants said what he said though its been open season on Suarez.

 

I think that shows he has had some influence on hows things have turned out.

 

That Utd game was the catalyst for what we are seeing today. Whether it was Ferguson or just the fact Suarez became an easy target after the Evra affair, I am not sure. But he now struggles for good press and for fair refereeing. Saying that, I did a quick google and there are couple of decent articles coming to his defence.

[JohnnyH]

Suarez apparently had a hard time in Holland for the same thing. Was that Ferguson as well? I am being facetious with the question of course, but people on here give Ferguson way, way too much credit when it comes to manipulating things. Many of you must think he's some fucking genius the way you think he gets people to do things and follow his agenda.

 

He's just a bitter 70yo drunk. And a lot of the press know it, and don't dance to his tune.

 

One thing Ferguson is not, is just a 70 year old drunk. He took an average team last season to within seconds of yet another league title. He’s anything but just an old drunk. To dismiss him like that is foolish.

 

But he was the first to actually name check Suarez and start the whole diving thing. The press lapped it up and it was on the whole back page. After that it snowballed as all the usuals who form their opinions from back pages and what Ferguson says started bleating on radio and TV.

[Major Tom]

One thing Ferguson is not, is just a 70 year old drunk. He took an average team last season to within seconds of yet another league title. He’s anything but an old drunk. To dismiss him like that is foolish.

 

But he was the first to actually name check Suarez and start the whole diving thing. The press lapped it up and it was on the whole back page. After that it snowballed as all the usuals who form their opinions from back pages and what Ferguson says started bleating on radio and TV.

 

Well, firstly, Ferguson could well be bitter and 70 and a drunk and still be a brilliant manager. None of those things are particularly exclusive. Saying that, I think you have taken my broadside a little too literally.

 

Anyhow, I personally don't think Ferguson controls things in quite the manner you make out. Sure, whatever he says becomes headline but, as I said, there are plenty of people in and outside of the press smart enough to make up their own minds.

 

If Suarez cuts out the histrionics - as he did in the NCFC game - he will quickly get decisions going his way. Whatever the fuck Ferguson says or thinks.

[phc1965]

That's not the point though. I'm not arguing other people shouldn't have a reputation for diving.

 

Rooney not having a reputation for it doesn't mean that Suarez' reputation is any less justified. He simulates contact and simulates injury, regardless of other people doing it HIS reputation is justified.

 

so in effect what you are saying is that it is fine for referees to give decisions based on the reputation of certain players rather than the normal route of actually deciding whether it was a foul or not.

 

 

and you think we dont have grounds for a gripe.

 

 

marvellous.

[ngogswilly]

I can understand people thinking Suarez cutting out the histronics will see him get more decisions. But I'm not so sure.

 

That would suggest his histronics are the sole reason for whats been happening to him.

 

The reputation he has and the results of that reputation arn't because he flings his arms in the air after every foul and feigns injury(which he more often doesn't for a long time now).

 

The reputation he has is partly(I'd suggest largely) to do with Fergiscum opening his mouth and the media(including pundits and journalists) using his poison as an excuse to go after Suarez.

 

I'm probably making a crap point here but basically its not going to stop because Suarez stops making a meal of things. Its going to stop hopefully because Rodgers has highlighted and its getting past ridiculous now in terms of the decisions going against him.

[Major Tom]

The reputation he has is partly(I'd suggest largely) to do with Fergiscum opening his mouth and the media(including pundits and journalists) using his poison as an excuse to go after Suarez.

 

I'm probably making a crap point here but basically its not going to stop because Suarez stops making a meal of things. Its going to stop hopefully because Rodgers has highlighted and its getting past ridiculous now in terms of the decisions going against him.

 

He (apparently) had a terrible reputation for diving in Holland, though. What do you put that down to?

 

And I think Suarez will get decisions if he doesn't so obviously go looking for them. It won't take too many howlers like Saturday for referees to start questioning themselves over not giving him the decision. Referees are human and, generally, have an ego. They certainly don't want to be shown up on MOTD every week for making stinkers.

[Coro]

He (apparently) had a terrible reputation for diving in Holland, though. What do you put that down to?

 

 

Don't want to interrupt you and your contradictions but is there any substance to this? I don't trust your knowledge regarding football.

[JohnnyH]

Well, firstly, Ferguson could well be bitter and 70 and a drunk and still be a brilliant manager. None of those things are particularly exclusive. Saying that, I think you have taken my broadside a little too literally.

 

 

Your comment was he was “Just a bitter 70yo drunk”. Your use of “just” was to completely dismiss him; a stance I think is foolhardy. I appreciate that you’ve back tracked however, and will allow you do that without calling you on it. You’re welcome. ;-)

 

Anyhow, I personally don't think Ferguson controls things in quite the manner you make out. Sure, whatever he says becomes headline but, as I said, there are plenty of people in and outside of the press smart enough to make up their own minds.

 

I'd have to disagree. And you just have see how respected journalists respond on twitter to see how he controls the print media. The "Ferguson will sell Rooney" headlines last year were case in point where he had openly lied to journalist with a story and they, to a man, stated there was nothing they could do about it as he was too powerful and it wasn’t worth having their paper banned by him.

 

 

If Suarez cuts out the histrionics - as he did in the NCFC game - he will quickly get decisions going his way. Whatever the fuck Ferguson says or thinks.

 

I agree that if Suarez calms down the histrionics he will get more decisions, however, I think the Norwich game is a poor example. He was refused an absolute stonewaller of a penalty, yet just sat there, smiled, then got up and got on with it. That’s exactly what he needs to do.

[Major Tom]

Your comment was he was “Just a bitter 70yo drunk”. Your use of “just” was to completely dismiss him; a stance I think is foolhardy. I appreciate that you’ve back tracked however, and will allow you do that without calling you on it. You’re welcome. ;-)

 

Good lord, Johnny.

 

 

I'd have to disagree. And you just have see how respected journalists respond on twitter to see how he controls the print media. The "Ferguson will sell Rooney" headlines last year were case in point where he had openly lied to journalist with a story and they, to a man, stated there was nothing they could do about it as he was too powerful and it wasn’t worth having their paper banned by him.

 

 

Happy to disagree.

 

 

I agree that if Suarez calms down the histrionics he will get more decisions, however, I think the Norwich game is a poor example. He was refused an absolute stonewaller of a penalty, yet just sat there, smiled, then got up and got on with it. That’s exactly what he needs to do.

 

You misread - or misunderstood - my point.

[Major Tom]

I don't trust your knowledge regarding football.

 

You don't?

 

I'm devastated.

[Coro]

You don't?

 

I'm gutted.

 

Would like some substance to your earlier comment.

 

Thanks.

[Major Tom]

Would like some substance to your earlier comment.

 

 

You're not going to get cos I think you're a dickhead.

 

Soz.

[JohnnyH]

Good lord, Johnny.

 

I know, I know; and as i said, you're welcome

 

Happy to disagree.

 

Indeed

 

You misread - or misunderstood - my point.

 

I’ve just re-read it and I did indeed initially misread your post with a touch of misunderstanding thrown in for good measure. I see how you meant it now and fully agree.

[Major Tom]

I’ve just re-read it and I did indeed initially misread your post with a touch of misunderstanding thrown in for good measure. I see how you meant it now and fully agree.

 

1-1.

 

Penalty shoot out?