Wanted: Suarez - video proof of diving

[Lapskaus]

so Stu's argument for proving suarez is a diver is as follows: "not going to spend time finding evidence he knows is there". Or even better "you're an idiot if you dont see that he is"

 

Still we do not have one incident of what I defined as diving at the start of this thread, after 8 pages I'm concluding that there isn't one.

 

Overreacting to a tackle is a different thing and you can start your own thread about that. It's annoying when footballers roll on the floor pretending to be shot like when Taylor did the limbo after the handball on the line, but rolling on the ground after having been tackled is not the same as diving without having been tackled. Before you start: we agree this rolling around is wrong and embarrassing, and Suarez has done that several times.

 

Now, you claim you play football, so you let's talk about going down with "minimal" contact - if there is enough contact to make you lose your balance so that you lose your advantage you better go down, if not you are just trying to lose.

[Stu Monty]

Yeah, I'm the only one who ever posted sarcasm on these boards...

 

If anythng got me "arsey" it was your perma-smug style of posting, which I pointed out in my neg which you keep rattling on about although you don't care about it.

 

'night then.

 

Erm, I think you know that wasn't the point. I think you know you're talking bobbins.

 

Very odd behaviour.

 

I'll leave it there and let you go, you've probably got numerous other battles to attend to on other threads.

[Stu Monty]

so Stu's argument for proving suarez is a diver is as follows: "not going to spend time finding evidence he knows is there". Or even better "you're an idiot if you dont see that he is"

 

Still we do not have one incident of what I defined as diving at the start of this thread, after 8 pages I'm concluding that there isn't one.

 

Overreacting to a tackle is a different thing and you can start your own thread about that. It's annoying when footballers roll on the floor pretending to be shot like when Taylor did the limbo after the handball on the line, but rolling on the ground after having been tackled is not the same as diving without having been tackled. Before you start: we agree this rolling around is wrong and embarrassing, and Suarez has done that several times.

 

Now, you claim you play football, so you let's talk about going down with "minimal" contact - if there is enough contact to make you lose your balance so that you lose your advantage you better go down, if not you are just trying to lose.

 

Yes, but god put dinosaur fossils there to test us!

 

He simulates fouls (defined by the laws of football) when they aren't fouls. As you have no interest in seeing, and would happily spoon your eyes out before you do, I'll leave you to it.

[MLB]

Rodwell's tackle was fine.

 

There are loads of worse divers than Suarez in the league; especially now that Luis has toned it down a lot. He is now mainly suffering because of Ferguson's hypocritical slut and referees' inability to think independently and fairly.

[Redder Lurtz]

Erm, I think you know that wasn't the point. I think you know you're talking bobbins.

 

Very odd behaviour.

 

I'll leave it there and let you go, you've probably got numerous other battles to attend to on other threads.

 

Not really.

 

But I'll rest my case here about your smug as fuck posting style. I bet you're a smashing, really likeable bloke in real life too.

[Stu Monty]

Your case was that you weren't allowed an opinion but mine is a crock of shit.

 

Then that you were allowed one - so I should re-read.

 

Then when pointed out the "were" bit was sarcastic defended sarcasm as a concept (instead of accepting you were being a hypocrite)

 

So yeah. I'd rest your case with a pop at me. Good call.

[Redder Lurtz]

Your case was that you weren't allowed an opinion but mine is a crock of shit.

 

Then that you were allowed one - so I should re-read.

 

Then when pointed out the "were" bit was sarcastic defended sarcasm as a concept (instead of accepting you were being a hypocrite)

 

So yeah. I'd rest your case with a pop at me. Good call.

 

Well I'm sure that all makes sense on one level or another. Well done.

 

Carry on.

[Redder Lurtz]

Silver Lining's got your back on this thread by the way Monty, with this generous little ditty:

 

"hahahaha. Poor old fat fucking lonely cunt redder blertz - misunderstood by all the haters. You hapless shambolic twat"

 

Bless.

[Whelan]

Not sure that you can 'prove' interpretation!

 

Tony Pulis and Arsene Wenger certainly disagree over what is interpreted as excessive force, and overeaction.

[JohnnyH]

Ok. I've been negged by Hades for my comment that I think Suarez has dived in the past just like many many other players. However, the neg has no comment and I don't see any comment in the thread.

 

Basically, if you disagree Hades, then make your argument. Personally, I feel anyone saying Suarez never dives is a bit of an idiot, but I'd like to be able to discuss it as opposed to negging with no reasoning.

 

Make your argument and don't hide behind a spacker neg.

[Code]

Ok. I've been negged by Hades for my comment that I think Suarez has dived in the past just like many many other players. However, the neg has no comment and I don't see any comment in the thread.

 

Basically, if you disagree Hades, then make your argument. Personally, I feel anyone saying Suarez never dives is a bit of an idiot, but I'd like to be able to discuss it as opposed to negging with no reasoning.

 

Make your argument and don't hide behind a spacker neg.

 

Is this the womens free speech day or something?

[cracker]

Don't often post on TLW - but read a lot and tbh some of the views on this thread make me want to post.

 

What we have is the best LFC player at this time who has suffered horrendously with all sorts of injustice on and off the field since he came to this country being pulled apart by LFC fans - a strange phenomenon. I would have thought Luis Suarez needs all the backing he can get from us - some LFC fans seem to be swallowing the agenda about him from outside of our club.

 

What i am absolutely clear on is that LS is nowhere near the worst player for so called diving. I would say that every time he has gone down he has been touched which cannot be said for several other players including even LFC players (remember Downing against Evra in 'that game' - now that was embarrassing as there was no touch at all and SD went over - in a way no wonder PE got in such a bad mood over that so that in the second half he ended up making up an evil lie I believe about what LS said to him).

 

I am a qualifed ref and if a player does not touch the ball - and even if he does if the tackle is deemed to be reckless (as Rodwells was - so to me it as a foul but not a red obviously) - a foul can (and maybe should) be awarded if the player when trying to make contact with the ball makes contact with his opponent instead. LSs style of play is so based on skill that often a mere touch can impede him to the degree that a foul is deserved when he is touched. The truth too is that if a player does not go down then very rarely is a foul awarded so who can blame players for going down when they are touched as Luis does. Free kicks can be important in the game and if we can get them then great. Also LS is often absolutely clattered and incredibly nothing is given so that too will influence his mind set. I just think that some have LS down as some sort of morally depraved individual (cheat if you will) with their comments on this thread going along with the lies people outside of LFC put over which I think is just so wrong and unfair. Defend our own - that is the least we can do to our heroes lads!! I make no apology over defending LS - he is my favourite current player on the field and off it seems a great guy - lets stand up to the liars and bullies outside of our club who want to destroy his reputation - cos if we don't nobody will.

 

Where I can admit he does need to tone down is his reactions as to me that is what gets peoples backs up - he appeals so much for things like hand ball and often when it is not justifed and that means that when it is justified then often refs do not give it - boy crying wolf and all that. I think BR must have spoken about that to him as at NCFC he was far better in that aspect.

[Stu Monty]

I am a qualifed ref and if a player does not touch the ball - and even if he does if the tackle is deemed to be reckless (as Rodwells was - so to me it as a foul but not a red obviously) - a foul can (and maybe should) be awarded if the player when trying to make contact with the ball makes contact with his opponent instead. LSs style of play is so based on skill that often a mere touch can impede him to the degree that a foul is deserved when he is touched. The truth too is that if a player does not go down then very rarely is a foul awarded so who can blame players for going down when they are touched as Luis does. Free kicks can be important in the game and if we can get them then great. Also LS is often absolutely clattered and incredibly nothing is given so that too will influence his mind set. I just think that some have LS down as some sort of morally depraved individual (cheat if you will) with their comments on this thread going along with the lies people outside of LFC put over which I think is just so wrong and unfair. Defend our own - that is the least we can do to our heroes lads!! I make no apology over defending LS - he is my favourite current player on the field and off it seems a great guy - lets stand up to the liars and bullies outside of our club who want to destroy his reputation - cos if we don't nobody will.

 

Where I can admit he does need to tone down is his reactions as to me that is what gets peoples backs up - he appeals so much for things like hand ball and often when it is not justifed and that means that when it is justified then often refs do not give it - boy crying wolf and all that. I think BR must have spoken about that to him as at NCFC he was far better in that aspect.

 

Mate, I know that's the case but you seem to be missing the other side of the coin: a player can make contact with the player, and not touch the ball, and it not be deemed a foul. It's just your interpretation of excessive force and what is a trip or not that defines what a foul is. If you're shielding the ball and I go to try and poke it away but kick you on the leg the ref can quite rightly decide it was a kick of little force/hasn't tripped you so it isn't a foul. Yes: a kick to the leg isn't by definition a foul in the laws.

 

If I made that Rodwell tackle in a game I reckon it's probably about fifty-fifty on whether a referee would deem it a foul (and about 1% would deem it a red).

 

Like with the Gomez tackle it's the reaction from the fouled player that makes the ref think there was excessive force and impact where there wasn't. Danny Rose can snap his cruciate tomorrow for me after that reaction to the Gomez tackle.

 

I know you say Suarez is your favourite, he's probably my least favourite player for these reasons.

[cracker]

Yeah you are right sometimes a player can catch a player in attempting to tackle and not commit a foul - it is a bit of a grey area.

 

I know that sometimes when i ref I end up shouting to players when they appeal for a foul that yes there was contact but no it was not a foul - it is hard to define and maybe at times I could be wrong but it is gut feeling is all I can say to explain it.

 

It is an interesting discussion point tho and like I say is a bit of a grey area but no way can I condemn LS as one of the games major divers as many seem to want to- altho yes I think we all agree that he can go down easily at times after contact is made with him - and i can agree that not all of those instances are fouls - but by the same token many are.

[lebron]

Mate, I know that's the case but you seem to be missing the other side of the coin: a player can make contact with the player, and not touch the ball, and it not be deemed a foul. It's just your interpretation of excessive force and what is a trip or not that defines what a foul is. If you're shielding the ball and I go to try and poke it away but kick you on the leg the ref can quite rightly decide it was a kick of little force/hasn't tripped you so it isn't a foul. Yes: a kick to the leg isn't by definition a foul in the laws.

 

If I made that Rodwell tackle in a game I reckon it's probably about fifty-fifty on whether a referee would deem it a foul (and about 1% would deem it a red).

 

Like with the Gomez tackle it's the reaction from the fouled player that makes the ref think there was excessive force and impact where there wasn't. Danny Rose can snap his cruciate tomorrow for me after that reaction to the Gomez tackle.

 

I know you say Suarez is your favourite, he's probably my least favourite player for these reasons.

 

Who are your favourite current (top 3) LFC players then?

[Iceman]

"Cheating foreigner" is a powerful narrative. It doesn't require much embellishment because it's so deeply ingrained in the country's psyche. As a Scotsman, slur knows that better than anyone. All this "suarez is a diver" started after slur made his initial comments about it. Suarez has never dived to the degree that Ashley Young has, but the narrative didn't work for Young because he's English.

[Stu Monty]

Who are your favourite current (top 3) LFC players then?

 

Fuck knows. Probably Lucas. I'm liking Allen a lot too.

 

I'd absolutely hate Suarez if he played for someone else. The fact he plays for Liverpool and is a genius on the ball means that has been diluted to just not liking him very much.

[Jose Jones]

There is no way Rodwell deserved a red for that, it was barely a foul. He got the ball with one foot, then his bent leg slightly caught Suarez.

I think Suarez made a bit of a meal of it, but nothing too bad, so I wouldn't class it as a dive either.

 

I reckon a lot of the people saying it was a deserved red, would change their tune massively had it been Suarez tackling Rodwell.

[Iceman]

Yeah it was never a red, terrible decision.

 

The game moves so fast and the players are so athletic, the ref should have the benefit of video replays. It would cut out a lot of the unfairness in the game and the playacting too.

[Hades]

I haven’t read this thread, but anyone claiming Suarez doesn't dive is doing it out of (very) blind loyalty. He may not dive any more than any other players, and less then the likes of Young and Bale, but he dives. He also loves his histrionics. I feel that if he was British he wouldn’t have the name he has and would be getting more penalties (Bale and Young are proof of this), but he still rolls around far too much.

 

It’s also worth noting that referees have clearly been told to be very careful of getting fooled for frees and penos as they are turning down penalty shouts all over the place at the moment. The Wellbeck penalty was truly ridiculous against Wigan, but they were also denied what looked like pretty clear pens against Spurs last weekend.

 

Suarez is somewhat of a marked man, but he’s no angel. This thread is, I feel, ill conceived.

 

Ok. I've been negged by Hades for my comment that I think Suarez has dived in the past just like many many other players. However, the neg has no comment and I don't see any comment in the thread.

 

Basically, if you disagree Hades, then make your argument. Personally, I feel anyone saying Suarez never dives is a bit of an idiot, but I'd like to be able to discuss it as opposed to negging with no reasoning.

 

Make your argument and don't hide behind a spacker neg.

 

I negged you because you said "anyone claiming Suarez doesn't dive is doing it out of (very) blind loyalty". I vehemently disagree with you there. Football is a contact sport and I want to see 50-50 tackles like Shelvey/Evans called play on but Suarez's case is different. His style of play relies on provoking contact and beating his marker with reflexes.

 

The 'diver' tag has come about because refs have no idea how to adjudicate his game with any degree of competence. That with the underlying British bias that a game with a high foul count is a negative creates a situation where, unless you win a significant portion of fouls when going down, you will inevitably in British culture be called a diver. You simply aren't allowed to take the piss out of opponents/nutmeg them on a regular basis. British refs aren't reffing objectively, they're imposing a stringently normative set of rules to an increasingly wide array of cheating like shirt tugging, arms over shoulders, bundling into someone from behind.

 

If divers didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them to protect referees.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Stu, ya big fanny, Suarez is a top guy. I insist you like him. It's more of an order, really.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Supermanc Monty hates Suarez, I'm shocked.

[Stu Monty]

If you read on the news that they are starting to find bodies scattered around the country with "CONTACT IS NOT A FOUL!"" carved into the corpses then you'll have a good idea who is doing it.

 

It might get people's attention though...could be worth it.

[Markmywords]

I'm with Monty, right up until the point of disliking Suarez.

 

I fully agree that Suarez is a diver but lets face it, gerrards dived in the past too hasn't he? Please someone come on here and try and deny that.

 

As a football fan i beleive one has the right to like or dislike a player for whatever reasons they see fit and for me I love suarez because he's good and i will probably hate him when he suddenly plays for someone else in the future.

 

As for the some fans have been mislead by outside forces with an agenda bollocks - oh dear, oh dear. Yes that's right we're drones that can't think for ourselves, we just walk towards the light, chanting.

[RedPaul]

Don't often post on TLW - but read a lot and tbh some of the views on this thread make me want to post.

 

What we have is the best LFC player at this time who has suffered horrendously with all sorts of injustice on and off the field since he came to this country being pulled apart by LFC fans - a strange phenomenon. I would have thought Luis Suarez needs all the backing he can get from us - some LFC fans seem to be swallowing the agenda about him from outside of our club.

 

What i am absolutely clear on is that LS is nowhere near the worst player for so called diving. I would say that every time he has gone down he has been touched which cannot be said for several other players including even LFC players (remember Downing against Evra in 'that game' - now that was embarrassing as there was no touch at all and SD went over - in a way no wonder PE got in such a bad mood over that so that in the second half he ended up making up an evil lie I believe about what LS said to him).

 

I am a qualifed ref and if a player does not touch the ball - and even if he does if the tackle is deemed to be reckless (as Rodwells was - so to me it as a foul but not a red obviously) - a foul can (and maybe should) be awarded if the player when trying to make contact with the ball makes contact with his opponent instead. LSs style of play is so based on skill that often a mere touch can impede him to the degree that a foul is deserved when he is touched. The truth too is that if a player does not go down then very rarely is a foul awarded so who can blame players for going down when they are touched as Luis does. Free kicks can be important in the game and if we can get them then great. Also LS is often absolutely clattered and incredibly nothing is given so that too will influence his mind set. I just think that some have LS down as some sort of morally depraved individual (cheat if you will) with their comments on this thread going along with the lies people outside of LFC put over which I think is just so wrong and unfair. Defend our own - that is the least we can do to our heroes lads!! I make no apology over defending LS - he is my favourite current player on the field and off it seems a great guy - lets stand up to the liars and bullies outside of our club who want to destroy his reputation - cos if we don't nobody will.

 

Where I can admit he does need to tone down is his reactions as to me that is what gets peoples backs up - he appeals so much for things like hand ball and often when it is not justifed and that means that when it is justified then often refs do not give it - boy crying wolf and all that. I think BR must have spoken about that to him as at NCFC he was far better in that aspect.

 

Great post, totally agree with everything here. Luis is clearly our best, most creative and most exciting player to watch as you cannot predict just what he is going to do next. We need players like him. The way he plays, his style of play, certainly invites mistimed challenges, knocks, cynical challenges, and more. He does not always go down. As I have said, there are clear examples where he gets knocked but carries on playing. I can't think of any examples where he has gone down without being touched, although there may be one around somewhere. I therefore do not consider him a "diver" in MY interpretation of the word, certainly not in how the modern game is played, which I think is an important point. There is, however, a popular discourse where he is framed as one of the worst offenders in the game right now for diving, and for me, again, there is no doubt, that this got much worse following Slur's comments about him and the incident with Evra. He is public enemy number 1 for more than one reason.

 

It also makes sense for him to be portrayed as a diver as he is a very clear threat to all opposing teams so there will be no support coming from them in defence of him. Yet I bet if he played for the mancs or arsenal or whoever, they would be defending him to the hilt. Which is why you are right, it is up to us to stick up for him and I'm pleased to see BR highlighting the lack of protection he is getting.

 

Like you, for me the histrionics are an irritating part of his game, which hopefully he can cut out over time, and which I think BR is working on. We are however lucky to have such an exciting player and this, plus his will to win during every moment of the game, are what helps to make him such a special player. I can appreciate he wont be everyone's favourite player in the team, but we'd be a lot worse off without him.