Violence Against Burglars

[Dougie Do'ins 9,698]

8 minutes ago, Dr Nowt said:

A dynamite cameo.  

 

Fully expected it to be Pemberton when he turned round.

So did I. Good TV but why did they go down the road of acting out the interviews and not use any CCTV footage ? From the way it was portrayed, it came across as though he got cunning as time went on. I'm glad he was armed and able to defend himself.

 

  

[Sugar Ape 14,292]

Think this is one of those situations where you would struggle to find a jury that would convict.

 

Man cleared of killing suspected thief during citizen’s arrest in Bristol | Bristol | The Guardian

 

Man cleared of killing suspected thief during citizen’s arrest in Bristol

 

 

A man has been cleared of killing a suspected thief who died after he pinned him down and knelt on his back for nine minutes during a citizen’s arrest.

 

Nathan Smith, 38, was accused of using “excessive force” as he restrained Craig Wiltshire, 43, but insisted he was only trying to hang on to him as he waited for the police to arrive.

 

Smith told the jury at Bristol crown court that he thought Wiltshire was faking when he twice told him he could not breathe.

 

As he left the dock, Smith thanked the jury, which took just over four hours to clear him of manslaughter, by making a prayer sign with his hands.

 

Wiltshire was believed to have been behind a string of thefts and break-ins in the Bristol suburb where Smith was employed as a live-in carer.

 

The court was told that despite repeated complaints to the police, there was no active police investigation into the break-ins.

 

The jury was shown CCTV footage of the incident in the early hours of 20 November 2019, in which Wiltshire can be heard telling Smith: “I can’t breathe,” and his captor replies: “I don’t give a fuck.”

 

Wiltshire died two weeks later, with a postmortem giving the cause of death as cardiorespiratory arrest and brain damage.

 

The prosecution alleged that Smith used unlawful force on Wiltshire and wanted to punish him for crimes he believed he had committed in the neighbourhood.

 

However, Prof Jason Payne-James, a leading expert on restraint techniques, said he believed the force used was “reasonable”, arguing that while police and prison officers would have known that detaining someone in a prone position could lead to positional asphyxia, an untrained person would not have realised this.

 

Payne-James said he believed “a perfect storm” of conditions and factors contributed to Wiltshire’s death, including his small build, an existing heart condition, the presence of the heroin substitute methadone and the sedative diazepam in his bloodstream and the fact that he was struggling.

 

Kimberly Lock, a neighbour, had told the court that the community had been “terrorised” by the break-ins, and had extra locks fitted to her house, including a sliding bolt for her bedroom.

 

Smith’s employer, Michael Crooks, 51, is also seen in the CCTV footage adding his weight to Wiltshire for a few minutes, while his son Ben Crooks, 27, is seen kicking the prone man twice. They have admitted common assault and will be sentenced at a later date.

 

The jury was told to assume that Wiltshire was the man suspected of committing burglaries in the neighbourhood over the previous weeks, and that the arrest was not a case of mistaken identity.

 

Speaking after the verdict, Det Supt James Riccio, of Avon and Somerset police, said: “This has been an extremely complex and sensitive investigation into the death of a 43-year-old man.

 

“Members of the jury have concluded Mr Smith is not guilty of manslaughter. We respect and accept the jury’s verdict.

 

“We recognise these legal proceedings will greatly impact the affected community and we would urge anyone with worries or concerns to speak to their neighbourhood policing team.”

[Mook 20,431]

The boy should get a medal.

 

 

[manwiththestick 5,173]

Having that hanging over you for two years, glad for him it's over.

[Kevin D 9,449]

You shouldn't break into people's houses but It does sound an awful lot like manslaughter.

[Strontium 11,025]

Knelt on for 9 minutes. Same amount of time as George Floyd.

[manwiththestick 5,173]

13 minutes ago, Strontium said:

Knelt on for 9 minutes. Same amount of time as George Floyd.

I would say the police officer kneeling on George Floyd with crowds and colleagues around him is slightly different to an average man, defending a property and running on fear and adrenaline whilst awaiting help.

[Strontium 11,025]

3 minutes ago, manwiththestick said:

I would say the police officer kneeling on George Floyd with crowds and colleagues around him is slightly different to an average man, defending a property and running on fear and adrenaline whilst awaiting help.

 

I imagine this is where the reasonable doubt part crowbars its way into proceedings. Doesn't mean we can't make up our own minds on his culpability though. Be interesting to see what a civil case, which only needs balance of probability, would conclude.

[Rico1304 8,773]

49 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

I imagine this is where the reasonable doubt part crowbars its way into proceedings. Doesn't mean we can't make up our own minds on his culpability though. Be interesting to see what a civil case, which only needs balance of probability, would conclude.

The article actually says a police officer would know better. 

[Gnasher 2,603]

2 hours ago, Kevin D said:

You shouldn't break into people's houses but It does sound an awful lot like manslaughter.

He was 'suspected' of breaking into cars.. residents were putting extra locks on their properties as a precaution, I think the man involved in conducting this citizens arrest should consider himself very lucky to receive a not guilty verdict.

[Rico1304 8,773]

I guess not hearing the evidence at the trial and relying on a news report has its limitations. 

[Pureblood 7,453]

It's a difficult one. On the face of it, the verdict appears to place the value of property above the sanctity of human life. On the other hand, if you break into someone's house, you might get knelt on for nine minutes.

[Gnasher 2,603]

1 minute ago, TK-421 said:

It's a difficult one. On the face of it, the verdict appears to place the value of property above the sanctity of human life. On the other hand, if you break into someone's house, you might get knelt on for nine minutes.

 

The victim hasn't been convicted of breaking into someone's house, seems the offences were breaking into cars and the police didn't catch him at that, so basically hearsay.

[Pureblood 7,453]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

 

The victim hasn't been convicted of breaking into someone's house, seems the offences were breaking into cars and the police didn't catch him at that, so basically hearsay.

Was going on what @Kevin D said. It's all his fault.

[Rico1304 8,773]

However, Prof Jason Payne-James, a leading expert on restraint techniques, said he believed the force used was “reasonable”, arguing that while police and prison officers would have known that detaining someone in a prone position could lead to positional asphyxia, an untrained person would not have realised this.

[Pureblood 7,453]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

The victim hasn't been convicted of breaking into someone's house, seems the offences were breaking into cars and the police didn't catch him at that, so basically hearsay.

Have just seen that it was in the street.  I'm with you, Gnasher, it's dodgy territory although I don't know the full facts so will refrain from further comment. 

[sir roger 8,676]

Extremely dubious.

 

The ' I don't give a fuck ' comment seems to reflect the attitude of the guy who got off. Stealing from cars is a cunt's trick but it's hardly worthy of a death sentence.

[Kevin D 9,449]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

He was 'suspected' of breaking into cars.. residents were putting extra locks on their properties as a precaution, I think the man involved in conducting this citizens arrest should consider himself very lucky to receive a not guilty verdict.

 

You're right, I misread that.

[dockers_strike 4,083]

Guy stabbing his ex repeatedly in broad daylight in London. By stander gets in his car and mows him down. The cunt who'd been doing the stabbing shouts for people to help him but others are trying to tend to the poor woman he stabbed about 10 times. Sadly she died. Hopefully the cunt suffered.

 

The car driver has been arrested on suspicion of murder. He should get a fucking medal in my opinion.

[Captain Willard 716]

“Violence against burglars” is clearly the title of the next Babyshambles album. 

[Gnasher 2,603]

45 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Guy stabbing his ex repeatedly in broad daylight in London. By stander gets in his car and mows him down. The cunt who'd been doing the stabbing shouts for people to help him but others are trying to tend to the poor woman he stabbed about 10 times. Sadly she died. Hopefully the cunt suffered.

 

The car driver has been arrested on suspicion of murder. He should get a fucking medal in my opinion.

Yeah I read about that and I agree. The only thing similar in both cases is the police were nowhere to be seen and ineffectual.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,159]

5 hours ago, Strontium said:

Knelt on for 9 minutes. Same amount of time as George Floyd.

The difference is that Police are trained in restraint techniques - so they should know what risks being lethal and what's likely to be safe - whereas members of the public aren't.

 

[Edit] Rico beat me to it.

[Gnasher 2,603]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The difference is that Police are trained in restraint techniques - so they should know what risks being lethal and what's likely to be safe - whereas members of the public aren't.

 

[Edit] Rico beat me to it.

Not sure I'm comfortable about the public acting like vigilantes, the victim hadn't even been charged with an offence, its not hundred per certain the dead man was responsible for pinching out of cars. Three males involved in his death, two still on assault charges, it sounds like America without the batons or guns, dangerous road to go down.

[SasaS 3,157]

18 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The difference is that Police are trained in restraint techniques - so they should know what risks being lethal and what's likely to be safe - whereas members of the public aren't.

 

[Edit] Rico beat me to it.

That is why police are now getting charged with murder and members of the public should be charged with manslaughter. He is also lucky this didn't have a racial element.

[AngryOfTuebrook 24,159]

11 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Not sure I'm comfortable about the public acting like vigilantes

Totally agree. I always feel a bit sick when you see someone's picture on social media with a (completely unsubstantiated) comment like "this rat has been burgling pensioners' houses in Croxteth" - usually followed by people trying to outdo each other in boasting about what they're going to do to the "rat".

5 minutes ago, SasaS said:

That is why police are now getting charged with murder and members of the public should be charged with manslaughter. 

Can't argue with that.