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Hillsborough "The Search For Truth" 10.25pm

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And I work at a university with allegedly intelligent people!!!!

 

One woman is a spurs fan, only 26, and didn't know much about Hillsborough, but she has done her own research, watched the recent programmes and read the report that came out and formed her own opinions, and she is horrified at what happened. Others just can't be arsed to too similar.

 

Go on youtube and input Hillsborough Tottenham Hotspur, years before our Semi final Spurs fans were caught up in a similar scenario. There but for the grace of God eh.

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Go on youtube and input Hillsborough Tottenham Hotspur, years before our Semi final Spurs fans were caught up in a similar scenario. There but for the grace of God eh.

 

I mentioned this, and fair play to her, she had a look and read a lot about it as well. She's researching things for herself and finding out a lot of facts that she didn't know anything about her. Just a shame that others don't do the same thing.

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I mentioned this, and fair play to her, she had a look and read a lot about it as well. She's researching things for herself and finding out a lot of facts that she didn't know anything about her. Just a shame that others don't do the same thing.

 

The Taylor Interim Report (badly named) should be the first read for anybody... it spells out the sequence of events very clearly and should be enough to convince any reasonably minded individual. It could probably be read in a lunch hour.

 

If that's not enough for them, nothing else is likely to convince them.

 

Sadly, I still hear of ludicrous accusations and scenarios that clearly demonstrate they've not read the report. We're not talking minor points (that anybody could get wrong), but fundamentals.

 

e.g.

 

"I didn't know the ground didn't have a safety cert"

"I didn't know the turnstile throughput could never have got them in on time, even in an orderly queue"

"I didn't know the tickets said "be in position 15 minutes before the game" which certainly didn't give the impression of needing to be their 1 hour before the game!

"They must have pushed for people to be crushed" - clearly never having seen the obvious 'invitation' that the tunnel presented... most fans would choose that entrance, and a large crowd aren't pushing, it's simply a bulldozer arriving through the tunnel.

"Liverpool fans were drinking" - it was a lovely sunny day, of course they'd had a drink, but Taylor clearly states of those that had been drinking very few were in an unfit state... it really had no bearing on matters at all.

 

I cannot fathom how ANYBODY could have done any research at all, and not read the Taylor report. And once they have, I struggle to see how anybody could continue to apportion blame to the fans. It beggars belief.

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I discovered this from the HIP documents...

 

Clearly it shows that over 50% of fans arrive in the last 20 minutes. Whilst it's true to say that 20 minutes is/was never really enough, it was common practice. It still is today (just that the turnstiles are more plentiful and more efficient).

 

25% arrive with 10 minutes to kick-off.

 

I know from my own City experience - it's the same there... most arrive in the vacinity of the ground in good time, but hang around outside - chippy / pub / car / forecourt etc...

 

I still can't get my head around how it wasn't obvious what would happen...

 

10,000 are expected at Leppings Lane.... with 30 minutes to go, if they know only 3,000 have arrived... there's 7000 coming. They must know they can't handle that throughput... therefore they'll need to delay kick off, or implement alternative measures urgently.

 

9OdVf.jpg

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Thing is tho mate it's not just the 10,000 in the Leppings lane and Stand above it that had to get into the ground via these turnstiles, the other 10000 odd who were in the North Stand had to enter via a dangerously small amount of turnstiles in Leppings Lane as well. From what I can remember (and I'll hold my hand up and say I've not read the Taylor Report)In their wisdom SYP had closed the entire road with all it's turnstiles running the length of the North Stand. This in my opinion is the catalyst for everything else that follows - and is the reason why the crush developed outside- too many people too little space not enough turnstiles.

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Thing is tho mate it's not just the 10,000 in the Leppings lane and Stand above it that had to get into the ground via these turnstiles, the other 10000 odd who were in the North Stand had to enter via a dangerously small amount of turnstiles in Leppings Lane as well. From what I can remember (and I'll hold my hand up and say I've not read the Taylor Report)In their wisdom SYP had closed the entire road with all it's turnstiles running the length of the North Stand. This in my opinion is the catalyst for everything else that follows - and is the reason why the crush developed outside- too many people too little space not enough turnstiles.

 

Of course, you're right... it was an adjacent sent of turnstiles, but still Leppings Lane entrance.

 

The reason I chose to say 10,000 was simply not to be accused of hyping up the numbers by including the North Stand / West Stand upper tier.

 

The turnstiles were in two sets (1..16) and (A..G).. from the outside that was simply two banks of turnstiles.

 

 

However, 1..10 actually went to the North Stand, and 11 to 16 went the West Stand upper tier (Leppings Lane end) and A..G went to Leppings Lane lower (disaster) terracing. It was however, also possible for some 'crossover' from the 11..16 terraces (upper tier) to end up in the lower tier if they really wanted to do that... The crossover was so they could get to the loos (I believe).

 

But still, in essence, the vast majority of the 10,000 for Leppings Lane lower tier (disaster) would arrive through turnstiles A..G, and the infamous Gate C (an exit gate).

 

It's more a miracle that the disaster didn't happen sooner actually.

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I don't know if the following has been posted on this or in any other thread, but it is well worth a read. It is a perfect snapshot of the emotional, physical and psychological toll that has been placed on many that were there that day.

 

Letters: Hillsborough: now it is time for justice to be seen to be done | Football | The Guardian

 

Thursday 13 September 2012 21.00 BST

 

On 15 April 1989, at 8.30 in the morning, Barrie left his home to travel to a football match. In the early hours of the following morning, a different man returned home. Barrie's friends, who had been seated elsewhere in the ground, had found him wandering the streets of Sheffield after an increasingly despairing search that lasted long into the night. Traumatised, his body covered in purple bruises that bled into each other, his arms torn from dragging adults and children from the terrible crush and passing them up to others hanging, arms stretched, to lift them to safety, Barrie came home but left part of his soul in the Hillsborough stadium.

 

In the 23 years that followed, time after time castigated as a cause of the tragedy; carrying the guilt of survival; knowing, as did everyone in Liverpool, "the truth" but condemned as self-pitying and told to "get over it" when any attempt to disseminate the truth was made; and taking every opportunity to show his solidarity with the families of the 96 in their search for justice.

 

Finally, vindication (Hillsborough: the reckoning, 13 September) but too late for many relatives and friends of those who were lost and survivors themselves. Too late also for Barrie, who died at 8.10 on Wednesday morning.

 

Pat Ayers

Liverpool

 

Barrie, you had absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, and it is a disgrace that, other than family, friends and supporters who knew this to be true, there were others who knew full well that this was the case too, yet chose to either keep quiet, continue taking an opposing view or simply hope the whole thing would blow away. You never got to see the truth get a public airing, but justice will be served on your behalf, don't you worry about that. Rest in peace Barrie.

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The most important thing is to put aside who we 'like' and who we don't 'like' (i.e. Kelly) and discover who actually knew things, and who didn't do their jobs.

 

Of course he was the face of the FA, but it doesn't mean he himself was culpable. He may have been, but he MAY be innocent (like those 96). It just so so very important not to get the wrong people... Liverpool's had 23 of the wrong people being blamed.

 

Some folks ARE culpable, beyond a doubt, lets just get the right ones. Or we'll repeat the horror all over again if brandishing innocents as guilty.

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I rarely post here, but I'd like to make a couple of points.

 

Firstly, everyone knows that 96 deaths were directly attributable to the events of that day, but the total death toll is of course much higher, due to illnesses brought on or exacerbated by stress, and due to people taking their own lives as a result of grief and/or "survivor guilt". The ensuing years of vilification and contempt shown by the establishment and by others only too willing to believe the worst about Liverpool fans can only have added to the unbearable pain suffered by those poor souls. This is the unseen cost of Hillsborough, and it needs to be acknowledged.

 

Secondly, after the surge of publicity during the last few days, no one can claim to be ignorant of the facts any longer. Anyone who continues to use Hillsborough as a stick to beat us with is only revealing their true despicable nature.

 

JFT96 (and for all the other victims).

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What i can't get over, and I've always thought this not just since Wednesday, is how Duckenfield has gone 23 years with this on his conscience. I mean he was put in charge of that game when he clearly wasn't trained or up to it, is that his fault or his superiors - i don't know. But clearly his actions, or lack of actions, on that day where the major cause of the whole disaster. Now if I try and put myself in that situation and imagine what I would see every time i looked in the mirror if I had caused so much misery and death would probably make me want to blow my brains out to end my suffering.But he hasn't even so much as issued an apology or word of regret as far as I know, and now we find out the extent of how much SYP tried to cover everything up of which he was a major contributor to that. Words fail me to describe what I think of him.

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As far as I'm concerned these cunts had previous for this. Does anybody remember the league game we played there in 85. They packed us in that leppings lane end like sardines and then at the end of the game they kept us in and everyone was getting crushed in that tunnel and people wher screaming at the cunts to open the gate but did they fuck. And then at the station they had us crushed on the stairwell and no word of a lie one of the police cunts said ah fuck them there only scousers. I've not seen many people mention these incidents but I think it was there attitudes towards us that set off a series of events that ultimately caused the tragedy. They should all be burned for what they did.

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i've just come away from a couple of public forums that have been talking about this, and now that bettison has reiterated/backtracked on his nonsense from yesterday they're all going beserk because he's finally made the fact that no fans were to blame absolutely crystal clear......where does all this sick, irrational hatred come from??

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What i can't get over, and I've always thought this not just since Wednesday, is how Duckenfield has gone 23 years with this on his conscience. I mean he was put in charge of that game when he clearly wasn't trained or up to it, is that his fault or his superiors - i don't know. But clearly his actions, or lack of actions, on that day where the major cause of the whole disaster. Now if I try and put myself in that situation and imagine what I would see every time i looked in the mirror if I had caused so much misery and death would probably make me want to blow my brains out to end my suffering.But he hasn't even so much as issued an apology or word of regret as far as I know, and now we find out the extent of how much SYP tried to cover everything up of which he was a major contributor to that. Words fail me to describe what I think of him.

 

yeah, it's almost as if the further up the greasy pole they go, the more bent, arrogant and self-justifing they become. there's a certain honesty about our dishonesty if you like, like we'll just hold our hands up and say 'okay, fair one' when we get caught out.....whereas bastards like duckenfield would never do that.

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I discovered this from the HIP documents...

 

Clearly it shows that over 50% of fans arrive in the last 20 minutes. Whilst it's true to say that 20 minutes is/was never really enough, it was common practice. It still is today (just that the turnstiles are more plentiful and more efficient).

 

it was well known, even back before the disaster, that arrival times of supporters vary and that a large portion of the total admitted arrive in the last hour.

 

Its mentioned in the green guide section 6.

 

As is the guidance for the provision of sufficient number of turnstiles and number of persons per hour per turnstile.

 

SWFC argued that since the game was all ticket (no cash transactions) they thought they could go over the 600person per turnstile per hour guide.

 

the expectation to serve 1443 was more than double the guide.

 

Arsenal provided similar information about fans arriving in the last 20 minutes to the taylor report.

 

The final report makes recommendation that the total number of turnstiles should be sufficient in number to get all fans in, in the last hour.

 

Although we take that shit more seriously i do wonder if we've learnt anything when you see graham mackrell get a gig picking suitable venues for some of footballs biggest fixtures.

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i've just come away from a couple of public forums that have been talking about this, and now that bettison has reiterated/backtracked on his nonsense from yesterday they're all going beserk because he's finally made the fact that no fans were to blame absolutely crystal clear......where does all this sick, irrational hatred come from??

 

Heysel didn't help... it pretty much sealed the belief (at that time) that football fans were morons, and Liverpool (being the most successful club at that time) epitomised the hooligan element in the eyes of the majority. Combine that with an already negative view of Liverpool as a city / culture, and you have a pretty extreme and negative view of Liverpool full stop.

 

When Hillsborough came along, of course the immediate assumption was that it was more of the same... hooliganism. The papers confirmed that view.

 

12 months later with the Taylor report - many supporters grasped the truth, a few accepted the truth, but still thought it was an accident that was exacerbated by yobs... i.e. innocent people died, the police screwed up, but the fans were still typical Liverpool fans which is what caused the issue. The remaining set of people just flatly refused to listen to the Taylor report. Those were the sort of people that think blacks are inferior, Germans are all Nazis, Irish are stupid etc etc.

 

What we're now left with is those same two categories - the 'didn't help themselves' element, and the 'All Liverpool fans are yobs' element.

 

From the 'didn't help themselves' element... these tend to be non match goers who have no comprehension of football crowds then, or now. what LOOKS like a huge crowd of yobs, is simply a mix of people nervous and excited about a game... and starting to chant, wave scarves etc etc. They simply see a mob, primarily of early 20's males, and therefore the mob behaviour 'didn't help matters'. There's hope for these people, they just need to understand the matchday experience better.

 

From the 'All Liverpool fans are yobs' element. There is just no hope for this type of person. For whatever reason, it's what they believe. They are just bigoted, prejudiced pillocks. You can't talk with them, you can't reason with them. They do however, tend to make themselves known to everybody, and the rest of society sees them for what they are. There's some solace in that.

 

You can look on any forum (including this one) and find it littered with phrases like:

 

"Scouse scum"

"Manc cunts"

"Yorkshire twats"

"Blueshite"

 

etc etc.

 

As long as people keep using those phrases and stereotyping people based on who they support, or where they were born... you'll always have folks thinking Liverpool were partly to blame.

 

Must of us know the truth, and the truth is now out there for people to discover for themselves. Whether they choose to or not is the measure of them as people. They had a vague excuse when the truth was partly hidden (even though it didn't take much to find it), but now the truth has a glaring set of floodlights on it, there's no excuse.

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I agree about Heysel being a big - if not the biggest contributer - to our negative image. And a lot of that ill-feeling is not just the label of 'hooligan', for many it comes down to purely footballing matters. The European ban meant a few clubs missed out on a chance at the big time, and that made them very bitter because it was all our fault. If you thought the lack of knowledge about Hillsborough is bad the the level of knowledge about Heysel is even worse. As far as a lot of people are concerned you'd think we ran in their with machetes and war paint smeared on our faces baying for blood as we hacked those 39 people to death. The reality is very different, but we will always be labelled because of that.

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it was well known' date=' even back before the disaster, that arrival times of supporters vary and that a large portion of the total admitted arrive in the last hour.

 

Its mentioned in the green guide section 6.

 

As is the guidance for the provision of sufficient number of turnstiles and number of persons per hour per turnstile.

 

SWFC argued that since the game was all ticket (no cash transactions) they thought they could go over the 600person per turnstile per hour guide.

 

the expectation to serve 1443 was more than double the guide.

 

Arsenal provided similar information about fans arriving in the last 20 minutes to the taylor report.

 

The final report makes recommendation that the total number of turnstiles should be sufficient in number to get all fans in, in the last hour.

 

Although we take that shit more seriously i do wonder if we've learnt anything when you see graham mackrell get a gig picking suitable venues for some of footballs biggest fixtures.[/quote']

 

Agree entirely. This is what makes things so pitiful. Admittedly, your every day fan wouldn't know this, but anybody responsible for actually commanding a stadium, and even most of the underlings would know... within a couple of minutes you'll know that you're nowhere near 1400, and at that point... it's clear there's a problem.... hence 'do something'.

 

A turnstile might have broken anyway, or there could have been a medical emergency etc... lots of potential things to cause a reduction in flow... yet it seems there was no real contingency in place (other than gate C).

 

No matter how you look at it... the flow rates were more than optimistic (downright ludicrous) in my view... and the HSE pretty much concluded so, and yet, numerous people approved it! (or more likely, one body came up with it, and the rest just never bothered checking).

 

It smacks of the age old 'I'm sure it'll be right, they know what they're doing' mentality. Which, I'm sure is STILL the case now.

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As far as I'm concerned these cunts had previous for this. Does anybody remember the league game we played there in 85. They packed us in that leppings lane end like sardines and then at the end of the game they kept us in and everyone was getting crushed in that tunnel and people wher screaming at the cunts to open the gate but did they fuck. And then at the station they had us crushed on the stairwell and no word of a lie one of the police cunts said ah fuck them there only scousers. I've not seen many people mention these incidents but I think it was there attitudes towards us that set off a series of events that ultimately caused the tragedy. They should all be burned for what they did.

 

I remember that crush well and is the reason I avoided the Leppings Lane for the 88 and 89 semis. I think that attitude by police was to all footy fans TBH not just us

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I remember that crush well and is the reason I avoided the Leppings Lane for the 88 and 89 semis. I think that attitude by police was to all footy fans TBH not just us

 

It was the same for all... I've just shown my son the Hillsborough movie with Christopher Eccleston (from 96). He's 19 and couldn't believe the fences. Had to explain to him that it really was a hooligan culture and the police (with SOME justification) had the mentality of 'herd them in, keep them in, then kick 'em out'. Every ground was the same. It even shocked me to remember actually. Spikes pointing inwards. Scarey.

 

It's a world apart for him... he'll never understand why I'm not too enthusiastic about him going to away matches etc. Maybe when he's a dad himself... he'll get it, but probably not until there's another disaster :-(

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I agree about Heysel being a big - if not the biggest contributer - to our negative image. And a lot of that ill-feeling is not just the label of 'hooligan', for many it comes down to purely footballing matters. The European ban meant a few clubs missed out on a chance at the big time, and that made them very bitter because it was all our fault. If you thought the lack of knowledge about Hillsborough is bad the the level of knowledge about Heysel is even worse. As far as a lot of people are concerned you'd think we ran in their with machetes and war paint smeared on our faces baying for blood as we hacked those 39 people to death. The reality is very different, but we will always be labelled because of that.

I don't believe that had Heysel not happened there would have been no cover up after Hillsborough . Straws comments ring true insomuch that the Government needed the police onside at the time . I think they would have backed the cover up whether or not it had been LFC involved.

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Jack Straw is covering his own slimey arse like all the politicians are.

Now the fans have been proven innocent (for the second time), all the other bodies will turn against the police... hoping their own culpability won't be exposed.

 

Don't get me wrong, SYP are culpable, but many others are too.... you can identify them rather easily... they are scurrying around like slimy rats aboard a sinking ship, issuing apologies, explaining how they were misled too, and how 'they are as shocked and saddened as anybody'.

 

The Heysel thing made it easier to cover up the disaster. I still suspect they would have tried. In their eyes (the SYP) the fact the club was Liverpool was relatively fortunate (in terms of being able to carry out black propaganda).

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I don't believe that had Heysel not happened there would have been no cover up after Hillsborough . Straws comments ring true insomuch that the Government needed the police onside at the time . I think they would have backed the cover up whether or not it had been LFC involved.

 

That's what politicians do... they make statement 'ring true' so that folks believe them.

The fucker wasn't saying that before Wednesday. Don't forget that.

 

His statements are NOT for your sakes, they are for his own.

 

The police blackened Liverpool's name with 'statements that rang true'... that's how it works and that's why it's convincing. Don't be taken in a second time by the bullshit of professional bullshitters!

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