Hillsborough "The Search For Truth" 10.25pm

[ROGO]

I agree about Heysel being a big - if not the biggest contributer - to our negative image. And a lot of that ill-feeling is not just the label of 'hooligan', for many it comes down to purely footballing matters. The European ban meant a few clubs missed out on a chance at the big time, and that made them very bitter because it was all our fault. If you thought the lack of knowledge about Hillsborough is bad the the level of knowledge about Heysel is even worse. As far as a lot of people are concerned you'd think we ran in their with machetes and war paint smeared on our faces baying for blood as we hacked those 39 people to death. The reality is very different, but we will always be labelled because of that.

 

this^ without doubt, but if i were (for arguments sake) a utd fan, then i would be seriously thinking twice about giving any liverpool fan grief over heysel whilst knowing full well that the only difference between brussels in 1985 and st etienne in 1977 was a lack of intent and a crumbling wall. i think i'd be keeping my mouth well and truly shut.

i think fanchester has it right when he says about fans not having the match experience (especially in the eighties) and just general ignorance.

[FanchesterCity]

I am under no illusion about Jack Straw's motives for gobbing off. He has been clinging onto the greasy pole since his student union days. Doesn't mean he didn't make a valid point about the police being above criticism at the time, The fact he did fuck all about it at the time speaks volumes about him as an individual. My point was that I personally don't believe Heysel was the determining factor as to whether a cover up over Hillsborough took place.

 

No I agree there. He does make a valid point, but it may not be the truth... I don't know either way. He ought to have expressed such views earlier though, he's had plenty of time.

 

I also agree that Heysel (either way) probably wouldn't have changed the cover up... but it certainly made it a much more viable option. If there was every any concern about 'getting away with it'... The Liverpool reputation probably swung it.

[Gav]

Fair dues to Charlton Athletic tonight...played YNWA before thier derby game with palace..also quite audible chants of Justice for the 96

 

For the first time in my life I feel that the tide has finally changed.People finally get it

[Guest San Don]

I so much wanted to watch these programmes but, as I get older, the pain of that day grows. It doesnt get any easier. I know I'd have been a jibbering wreck if I had watched it.

 

Today, I had to sit at work and block out people talking about the new revelations and I could feel the anger, the emotion and the helplessness just washing over me, hoping they wouldnt say anything wrong or out of place.

 

And yet tonight, i've just been reading an article on the torygraph web site then caught sight of some comments. Unbelievably, they are morons out there who think the latest revelations are all a whitewash. One is even purporting he was there and 'know's drunken youth caused the crush blah, blah, blah.

 

Just where do these people come from? The majority of the fucking world acknowledges we've been wronged all these years and now, we've finally been vindicated in our fight but, incredibly, there are still some who want to keep the myth of 'drunken' LFC fans as the main cause.

 

It breaks my fucking heart, it really does.

[BringbackBiscan]

On other non Liverpool forums, there's still a lot of people pushing the ticketless fans caused the crush outside, forcing them to open the gates. I don't have the patience to be correcting them to be honest.

[FanchesterCity]

You're wasting your time with them.

 

Try to think of them as the type who say "the unemployed are lazy', 'the disabled deserve it' etc. They've clearly not looked at the evidence - it's only been around for 22 years.

 

They are confusing a minimal number of (potentially drunk) and a minimal number of tickletless fans and applying that to a huge scale disaster. Clearly there 'evidence' for this is better than the police could muster up with all the video, photography they had available. If the police couldn't substantiate it, I'm sure as hell sure these naysayers can't.

 

In a crowd of 25,000 - there'll be a few drinkers, some quite unsavoury characters, and some loud mouths. There will also be 24,900 everyday people.

These people really don't think things through at all.

[Whelan]

On other non Liverpool forums, there's still a lot of people pushing the ticketless fans caused the crush outside, forcing them to open the gates. I don't have the patience to be correcting them to be honest.

 

Some people will never understand that 40,000 fans will never behave in one way, like ants, that is why the police are there, to police! The fact is they did not fullfill their basic requirements, and then set about covering up their incompetence by denigrating us.

 

The 'self pity city' was perpetuated so that questions about Thatchers economic policy that destroyed industry and community would not be asked, just like the 'chips on their shoulders' is perpetuated so that we never question institutional racism. Heysel helped enforce the violent working class that needed to be brought to heel, and Hillsborough was the inevitable consequence of that. I guess that somewhere along the way SYP pointed out that they, more than any other force, had helped bring down the Miners and helped Thatcher destroy the Unions, I would think they reminded her of this.

 

I hope that people finally realise that it is easy to paint a person, or a group, race or class in a negative way if we accept without question what we are told. We have been victims of this for 23 years, and I hope we realise this when the next witchhunt is under way. It is easy to see the bad in people, sadly it is far too easy.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

On other non Liverpool forums, there's still a lot of people pushing the ticketless fans caused the crush outside, forcing them to open the gates. I don't have the patience to be correcting them to be honest.

 

These people would probably argue in the face of insurmountable evidence, that the world is still flat. Until recently, sadly, their opinions on Hillsborough were probably held by the majority. Now, after the report, substantial amounts of people have departed from their ignorance, irrespective of the reasons of this ignorance, to realise the truth of what happened.

 

The ones who still grip tightly to the myths of ticketless, drunken mobs of fans are now in the minority. Ignore them. Nay, humour them. Embrace their stupidity and ignorance. Mock their undying willingness to cling to an argument which is slowly, but surely, being blown to pieces by the day.

 

We are right. They are wrong. It's as simple as that. They are arguing in the face of two enquiries. They are arguing against a conclusion which has been reached after consideration of 450,000 documents. They base their account on undocumented and weak anecdotal evidence, and the evidence of a now discredited newspaper who themselves have admitted that they were wrong.

 

It's happening. The joke is now on them. Listen carefully. The tide is slowly, but surely, turning. The minority are now the majority and, while it's just the start, I fucking love it and feel empowered by it.

[magicrat]

I so much wanted to watch these programmes but, as I get older, the pain of that day grows. It doesnt get any easier. I know I'd have been a jibbering wreck if I had watched it.

 

Today, I had to sit at work and block out people talking about the new revelations and I could feel the anger, the emotion and the helplessness just washing over me, hoping they wouldnt say anything wrong or out of place.

 

And yet tonight, i've just been reading an article on the torygraph web site then caught sight of some comments. Unbelievably, they are morons out there who think the latest revelations are all a whitewash. One is even purporting he was there and 'know's drunken youth caused the crush blah, blah, blah.

 

Just where do these people come from? The majority of the fucking world acknowledges we've been wronged all these years and now, we've finally been vindicated in our fight but, incredibly, there are still some who want to keep the myth of 'drunken' LFC fans as the main cause.

 

It breaks my fucking heart, it really does.

 

I watched about half of it until the Mrs asked me to turn it over because it was too upsetting. I felt the same so i didn't argue. You're right about some people still not accepting the fans were not responsible . Some never will but I do believe if new inquests are held and some of perpetrators are held to account in court the lies will largely fade away.

[The Golden Eel]

On other non Liverpool forums, there's still a lot of people pushing the ticketless fans caused the crush outside, forcing them to open the gates. I don't have the patience to be correcting them to be honest.

 

Nah, fuck it like. You'd be wasting your time and pissing yourself off.

[FanchesterCity]

Nah, fuck it like. You'd be wasting your time and pissing yourself off.

 

Definitely better off letting the rest of us (non-Liverpool fans) do it... we can't be accused of being biased, and those more neutral fans spell it out for them, the better... but then again, we get the same infuriating feeling of injustice too, whilst these ignorant buffoons just seem to be stress free as they spout their crap.

[Pidge]

Fair dues to Charlton Athletic tonight...played YNWA before thier derby game with palace..also quite audible chants of Justice for the 96

 

For the first time in my life I feel that the tide has finally changed.People finally get it

 

This, hopefully this good faith can help the club and the families. A show of unity will go a long way tomorrow.

[Gav]

This, hopefully this good faith can help the club and the families. A show of unity will go a long way tomorrow.

 

Brighto FC v Wednesday are doing a minutes silence and quite a lot of lower division games will be doing one or other.Its Pretty momentous in my view.Yes I know theres been minutes silence/reflections before ,but this time is different after this weeks outcome.

[Guest ShoePiss]

It is momentous but I'm also puzzled.

 

Why now? They just couldn't be arsed to find out the real story, one that has been around for 23 years? Ok I suppose, nice of them all to do it now.

[memyselfandpie]

The reports of other clubs doing things is quite emotive, significant, moving, momentous...the list goes on and on. They can only be thanked for what they are doing. It's tmes like these that you are filled with hope that the world isn't all bad.

[ROGO]

On other non Liverpool forums, there's still a lot of people pushing the ticketless fans caused the crush outside, forcing them to open the gates. I don't have the patience to be correcting them to be honest.

 

i gotta admit that i've tried to correct a few.

even some kid who caimed "i've watched the footage over and over again and its clear that the fans were at fault" by asking why he didnt read the reports aswell and then marry the two so he could then at least have a clear picture of events....otherwise it would be like writing a synopsis for a film that he'd just watched on mute.

he accused me of 'refusing to see the truth'.

the fuckin irony

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

The reports of other clubs doing things is quite emotive, significant, moving, momentous...the list goes on and on. They can only be thanked for what they are doing. It's tmes like these that you are filled with hope that the world isn't all bad.

There has been a push on twatter for nearly 2 days now to get You ll never walk alone back to number 1 on itunes.

 

Gerry Marsden has pledged all the money from it to go the families.

 

9 Minutes ago it had reached number 4.

[Tommy Lawrence]

i gotta admit that i've tried to correct a few.

even some kid who caimed "i've watched the footage over and over again and its clear that the fans were at fault" by asking why he didnt read the reports aswell and then marry the two so he could then at least have a clear picture of events....otherwise it would be like writing a synopsis for a film that he'd just watched on mute.

he accused me of 'refusing to see the truth'.

the fuckin irony

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

Fuck 'em!

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

There has been a push on twatter for nearly 2 days now to get You ll never walk alone back to number 1 on itunes.

 

Gerry Marsden has pledged all the money from it to go the families.

 

9 Minutes ago it had reached number 4.

It has now started charting in Norway and Sweeden and it has hit number 2 here.

 

[Ring of Fire]

My son is watching Soccer AM and the shirts behind the guests have "remembering the 96". Not a fan of the show but another nice touch.

[bigwool]

There has been a push on twatter for nearly 2 days now to get You ll never walk alone back to number 1 on itunes.

 

Gerry Marsden has pledged all the money from it to go the families.

 

9 Minutes ago it had reached number 4.

 

Now number 1 in the UK. Good work.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Now number 1 in the UK. Good work.

It is truely unreal as it has entered in practically every country worldwide.

 

It is top 10 in so many countries at the moment.

 

Another thing that has grown beyond belief is the shut down the sun.

 

Theres shops nationwide showing this poster.

 

[BringbackBiscan]

Something that really annoys me is it's taken the government to tell people the truth for them to wake the fuck up.

 

It's blind faith in those kind of wankers that let them pull the wool over the sheeps eyes for so many years, yet they'll still cling to every word they hear and read, instead of opening their own eyes and finding out the truth for themselves, nation of sheep.

[lifetime fan]

Thommo speaking well on SSN.

[Frankenhooker]

Always the victim being sung at Old Trafford. Inbred cunts.