Hillsborough "The Search For Truth" 10.25pm

[ternando_forres]

42 questions for panel - Liverpool FC

 

 

The panel has sifted through more than 400,000 pages of documentation from more than 80 organisations to produce the report.

 

Below are the questions that the Hillsborough Family Support Group asked the panel to answer when it was formed in early 2010:

 

1. Why was a venue without a safety certificate used for such a high-profile match? Why have Sheffield Wednesday FC not been taken to task for this lack of duty of care?

 

2. Why were LFC fans given the smaller end of the ground when they had the largest number of supporters? LFC had asked for this to be changed, why was their request ignored?

 

3. Why was Chief Superintendent Duckenfield in charge on the day? What were his qualifications/experience/competency? Why was Chief Superintendent Mole not in charge, as in 1988?

 

4. Is it true that circumstances surrounding the initiation of a young police cadet in the woods near Sheffield led to the removal of Mole and the installation of Duckenfield?

 

5. Why were the controls and precautions that had been adopted in the 1988 semi-final not used in 1989?

 

6. Why was there a 10 per cent reduction in manpower for the 1989 semi-final from the 1988 semi-final? 80 more police officers at the Leppings Lane end could have made a significant difference, filtering fans. Approximately 980 officers were used for the 1988 semi-final, 1000 for the semi-final in 1987 and 1,200 for the semi-final between Wolves and Spurs. Please can you look into documentation which explains the reasons for this reduced manpower?

 

7. Ref: PC 2302 Powell, Taylor Report, referring to the policing in Leppings Lane at 2.45pm. The following passage was omitted: "The first thing I said was 'Where are all the Bobbies, there is hardly anyone there'. I could not understand how such a crowd could possibly have gathered. I recall in previous games there was usually a large police presence concentrated on this part of the ground, usually forming some sort of cordon." Could the panel comment?

 

8. Why did the police further delay fans making their way by road to the match (ie on the Snake and Woodhead Passes) when road-works were already hindering their journey?

 

9. Why was the kick-off not delayed?

 

10. The people in pen 3 were in dire straits by 2.30pm and by 2.45pm were in serious danger of losing their lives. Why has this never been fully investigated?

 

11. Should there have been two separate inquests - one for those who died inside the ground and a separate one for those outside the ground who came in when the gates were opened?

 

12. Why did only one ambulance make it on to the pitch?

 

13. Who stopped the ambulances from coming on to the pitch, telling them fans were fighting? The ambulances were lined up waiting to come in - who stopped them?

 

14. What happened to the St John Ambulance team who were in attendance on the day? Have their statements and/or testimony ever been scrutinised?

 

15. We know a meeting took place between Mrs Thatcher, Bernard Ingram, the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, Peter Wright on April 16, 1989 - were minutes taken and are these available?

 

16. Was this the start of the sanitation process to blame the fans for the tragedy? Ingram still publicly blames 'drunken ticketless fans' for the disaster - who misled or encouraged him into thinking this?

 

17. Why, when they already knew before they opened the gates that pen 3 was overcrowded, did they did not transfer people out of pen 3 into the side pens?

 

18. Why were only 14 taken to hospital?

 

19. Why were police statements edited?

 

20. Why couldn't the accounts from the police notebooks be used in the mini inquest or anything else for that matter?

 

21. Chief Constable Jack Leydon, we believe, was involved in compensation claims. (Sir) Jack Leydon was the chairman of South Yorkshire Police Association (SYPA) and is alleged to have been a director of Municipal & Mutual, the insurer of SYPA, South Yorkshire Police (SYP), and Sheffield City Council among others. If this is true, was there an undeclared conflict of interest or worse?

 

22. Statements prove pens 3 and 4 were overfull by 2.30-2.45pm and people were probably already dying. Why was the order given to open gates and not consider the consequences to the people inside? It wasn't just one person in the control box, everybody there had a duty of care to those attending the match.

 

23. Taylor states: "Duckenfield made a blunder of the first magnitude by opening the gates and not sealing off the already full pens." Other officers in the control box could have told Duckenfield that he needed to close the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 before opening the gates. Was this the case and/or was it a deliberate act to undermine Duckenfield?

 

24. This scenario also applies to the implementation of the major accident and emergency plan: nobody in the control box set the plan in motion, although all had been trained in major accident procedures. Will the panel please investigate this in greater detail than Taylor did especially with their greater access to relevant documentation?

 

25. At the mini inquest Dr Ernest Gumpet said it wouldn't be possible to establish life extinct unless a person has had an ECG, so why did only 14 of the victims get to hospital? The rest were declared dead in the temporary mortuary by two doctors with one stethoscope between them.

 

26. How many people were placed by the River Don, being assumed dead, and for how long were they left - note, we have no evidence backing this point.

 

27. The treatment the families received at the temporary mortuary on the night of 15 April 1989 requires further scrutiny. Statements were taken immediately after the families had identified their loved ones, without any legal representation. These statements were then used in inquests etc. The inference was all around alcohol.

 

28. Coroner Dr Popper's instructions were to take blood alcohol levels on all victims - why were no blood alcohol levels taken from the senior police officers and other key officials as would be the case in, for example, a road crash? This points to the fact that even by 5pm the decision was taken to blame other people and they assumed alcohol played a relevant part.

 

29. According to senior nurse manager Mr Eccleston (who attended the temporary mortuary at 3.55pm) 'The scene was of absolute chaos'. With statements like this, how could two doctors still manage to certify people dead?

 

30. Why did Peter Wright, then Chief Constable of the South Yorkshire Police, make such a speedy exit?

 

31. Why did South Yorkshire Police request West Midlands Police Force to conduct enquiries and collect statements from witnesses when West Midlands Police were proved at the time to be the most corrupt force in the country? (Half the force were disbanded for their dealings with the Birmingham Six).

 

32. Why were the radial fence gates of pens 2 and 3 locked when Sheffield Wednesday were told those pens were only safe if the gates were left open? (The fire service stated it was safe only if those gates remained open).

 

33. Why was the football club or its officials never charged with neglect and/or failing in their duty of care?

 

34. Will the panel be looking into events as a whole or will they also address individual cases and aspects?

 

35. How can the panel be sure they have reviewed all the documents? How would they even know if they have been given all the documents? Will the panel be aware if there are gaps?

 

36. Can we be sure this review will still go ahead even if there is a change of government?

 

37. Are some documents already redacted? Will the panel be able to see all statements/documents in their original form and entirety?

 

38. Funding of Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and Superintendent Murray's defence ran into many millions - this enabled SYPA/SYP lawyers to be able to thwart the families on many occasions at all levels of legal and civil proceedings. It went far beyond the normal employers' responsibility to its employees - should taxpayers' money have been used to defend the indefensible?

 

39. Why were Duckenfield and Murray allowed to retire on enhanced 'ill-health' pensions (and thereby avoid discipline/potential loss of pension) as soon as the Police Complaints Authority instructed SYP to initiate disciplinary charges when they (SYP) had failed to do so?

 

40. What can be done/said about 'lies' in police statements (eg a victim's name was made available to the panel on the request of the family) - where police statement said he was vomiting beer, yet there was no alcohol in his blood alcohol sample.

 

41. Why were police notes from the day not admissible as evidence?

 

42. At least nine families still do not have death certificates, they were asked to make themselves and their circumstances known to the panel.

[Lycan]

Notts Forest and Chelsea fans are by and large a bunch of cunts btw but, i'm sure you already knew that.

 

They must of been gutted yesterday.

[Coro]

Still in a state of shock. From the reports findings to Cameron's speech/apology.

 

Surreal.

 

Never thought I'd see the day.

[John McClane]

Amazingly, the Scottish S*n runs a front page story of Andy Murray returning home. The Real Truth headline is top right where the rest of the nation has Kate wants 2 kids or whatever.

 

Yes, Murray achievement was great but Hillsborough was a national tragedy.

Fucking spanners.

[Harry Squatter]

Some fella in my local paper shop buying the scum this morning. Looked at him and said "surely you aren't going to buy that paper after yesterday?" completely ignored me and scurried off into his car quickly.

 

The guy who owned a shop where I used to live was told that he had to take a minimum of 6 copies of the sun, he used to throw 6 copies away every day rather than have it on display in his shop.

[John McClane]

minimum requirements are standard, that why you will see a total random title like 1 edition of the Farmers World in your local shop. 6 is rather low for a national, still too high I guess for that tripe.

[Harry Squatter]

This was a while back, possibly ten years ago so maybe it has changed since then, remembered him moaning about getting grief for it off the supplier.

[mht1892]

If I go in a shop to get a paper or in a store which is not that often I always pick up around half a dozen or so papers and stick them over the rag.

[John McClane]

Do the same myself MB.

[dobbalina]

Some fella in my local paper shop buying the scum this morning. Looked at him and said "surely you aren't going to buy that paper after yesterday?" completely ignored me and scurried off into his car quickly.

 

The guy who owned a shop where I used to live was told that he had to take a minimum of 6 copies of the sun, he used to throw 6 copies away every day rather than have it on display in his shop.

 

The Newsagent close to mine orders 13 copies of The S*N each day as he believes he's bringing bad luck on the unlucky 13 who buy it each day.

[njackets]

Horrendous

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/NGN000000070001.pdf

 

 

Memo to news editor. London standard re – allegations over behaviour of liverpool fans at the hillsborough semi final. Story filed to you on april 18th.

 

The original storyfiled by us on the morning of april 18th led on angry police hitting out at liverpool fans who they said had hampered rescue attempts at the semi-final (our story catchlined ‘slam’).

 

During the afternoon of the 18th we received further information which was filed to you as the day progressed (catchlined pocket and patnick) adding allegations of fans stealing propert of the dead and later quotes from a leading mp backing up many of the police claims.

 

All the allegations in the stories we filed were made unsolicited by ranking officers in the south yorkshire force to three different experienced senior journalists who are partners in this agency. All four officers involved had been on duty at Hillsborough.

 

The first claims of bad behaviour came on the night of Saturday april 15th a few hours after the tragedy when one repporter met by chance a senior police officer he has known for many years.

 

Without (prompting?) the officer told him he had been punched and urinated on as he tried to save a dying victim at Hillsborough. The following day there was another chance meeting with a second officer who again without prompting said he had seen some fans behaving badly including attacking police and urinating on officers.

 

At this stage we felt it was not enough confirmation to send a story making such serious claims.

 

However, on Monday 17th another reporter met a third officer who volunteered information and re-iterated similar stories saying he seen police attacked and had been told of fans urinating down the terraces as police pulled away the dead and injured.

 

At that stage we felt we should tell the story and sent it out the following morning (Tue april 18th).

 

Later the same day a third reporter met a fourth officer he has known for many years who reported the allegations and added that liverpool supporters had been stealing from the dead. Though he had not seen it personally he said despite fingertip searches of the terracing alot of personal property belonging to the dead was missing and other officers had told him of pilfering.

 

We sent out the additional details plus a report by south yorkshire’s chief ambulance officer that one of his men was injured when attacked as he treated a fan on the pitch.

 

Further quotes were sent in a later story after we spoke to the tory mp for sheffield hallam irvine patnick. He said he had spoken to police officers on Saturday night who said they had been attacked and urinated on. He had not volunteered the information previously because he felt it would inflame a very sensitive situation.

 

We also added quotes from south yorkshire police federation secretary who said he had heard ‘terrible’ accounts of the behaviour of some fans.

 

In some respects we ‘watered down’ the allegations which included a report to us that liverpool fans seeing the uncovered breasts of a dead girl shouted ‘ pass her over here and we’ll f...her”

 

We felt we did as much as we could to check the authenticity of the story in the time available and reported faithfully what we were told.

 

Ends...

 

This is disgusting! The levels of depth they went to to save there own skin, even more shocking that some of these cunts could still be serving today.

[Wembley74]

This is sadly going to go on forever I am afraid, you can't educate pork as the saying goes. But a massive showing of the report will stop a load of these fucking arseholes

[FanchesterCity]

I was just reading a witness statement and he says "I have sent my ticket to the Daily Mirror in London as they were requesting them" , just curious if anyone knew why they wanted them?

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000000730001.pdf

 

The tickets had poor layout diagrams on them, and instructions to arrive a good 15-30 minutes before kickoff.

 

They MIGHT be wanting to illustrate what a farce that was when the turnstiles were measured and it would have taken significantly longer (the figures are published, can't recall them - but they are in the region of 1-2 hours) to get everybody in.

 

My point being, the ticket instructions were a bit of a joke (which Lord Justice Taylor highlighted)

[Cliff T. Beast]

The events of yesterday are more than i could have ever thought. I never in a million years expected an apology from Cameron and, i actually believe his apology was as heart felt as it sounded. Yes, he was left in no other position but to apologise, but the way he delivered it, well, i can only admire him for that.

 

The fight has to continue now though and, despite what we heard yesterday, we HAVE to keep fighting, accountablility needs to be found and individuals need to be punished.

 

Yesterday was an emotional rollercoster, as i was saying to my missus last night, I feel so happy yet at the same time sad and angry at what the families, survivors and us as fans have been put through these past 23 years.

 

I felt strange last night, like a weight was lifted, like I was walking 10 feet tall. I can only express my admiration and thanks to the panel, The HFSG and HJC and us reds who've stuck by each other through this. It makes me proud to be a scouser and more importantly, proud to be a red.

 

The clouds are clearing now but we still haev a long way to go before we see the Golden Sky at the end of the storm

[lifetime fan]

Just heard Bettison statement on the radio, scummy c**t... still more or less saying the fans at the entrance caused it.. said something like his view has not changed.

 

 

Which radio station mate?

[njackets]

Just heard Bettison statement on the radio, scummy c**t... still more or less saying the fans at the entrance caused it.. said something like his view has not changed.

 

I go on a mixed sports forum and despite me copy n pasting on there the relevant paragraphs of the Taylor report that dismiss this theory out of hand the day before yesterday. Despite everything that's came out yesterday this seems to be the view held by the scum bag majority.

 

I honestly think deep down they know the truth but there hate for Liverpool/scousers is that deep. They can't admit all these years they've been wrong they're desperate to cling to the fact it was us who caused what happened.

[Guest davelfc]

DEFIANT former Merseyside police chief constable Norman Bettison today said fans’ behaviour at the Hillsborough disaster made the job of the police harder than it needed to be.

 

In a lenghty statement he said he accepted that the main reason for the tragedy that claimed 96 lives was a lack of police control.

 

But he added: “Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.

 

“But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.”

 

Mr Bettison worked for South Yorkshire Police at the time of the tragedy and was involved in the force’s response to the disaster.

 

Liverpool MP Maria Eagle accused Mr Bettison in Parliament in 1998 of being part of a “black propaganda unit” that smeared Liverpool fans.

 

Today she added her voice to that of Trevor Hicks, of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, in calling for Mr Bettison to resign.

 

In a lengthy statement he defended his actions and made clear he will not resign as chief constable of West Yorkshire Police.

 

His statement said: “The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. .........

 

 

 

Read More Norman Bettison statement defends his Hillsborough actions and says fans' behaviour made policing harder - Hillsborough News - Hillsborough - News - Liverpool Echo

[lifetime fan]

And The FA still can't bring themselves to apologise.

[FanchesterCity]

You know, through all of this, Duckinfield and 'opening the gate' are all too easy scapegoats.

Clearly he wasn't competent. He tried to fix a problem, and created a new one (in opening the gates), but the failings happened before that and after that too.

 

I'm not saying he's blameless by any means, just that in some small sense, he was caught up on the machinery too. There were others there that day who knew the correct actions to take and failed to help him. And then the scheming to blame the fans... a police force out of control / couldn't see the abhorrence of its actions...

 

SWFC and the SCC too. For them, either the police or fans to blame was a good outcome, since it diverted attention from them.

 

The police HAD (in this instance, to their credit) expressed concerns about safety in the past. SWFC opted to take a 'flexible' approach to the Green Code (which was a guideline not a rule).

 

SCC 'were busy, and operating under budget restraints' - so didn't get around to their Safety Certificate work as they ought to have.

 

Neither SWFC or SCC were necessarily ill-intentioned bodies... they were just complacent. But their complacency created the stage for Duckinfield's incredulous performance.

Duckinfield is starting to look more and more like an incompetent buffoon who was in situ as a result of far greater incompetence and complacency from others.

 

And even today, I suspect those who fear they might be caught up in the ever widening web of culpability, will be employing the same counter measures yet again.... attempting to divert blame onto others to save their skins.

 

Even before the letters of apology from certain bodies appeared, I'm damn sure they wrote letters to their legal representatives first. The same old priorities eh?

 

Today? they'll be in meetings with their insurers and legal teams. They won't be saying "we think our stadiums are safe, but how could we make them safer?"

 

Everything's changed in football over the last 23 years. And yet, nothing really has.

[lifetime fan]

DEFIANT former Merseyside police chief constable Norman Bettison today said fans’ behaviour at the Hillsborough disaster made the job of the police harder than it needed to be.

 

In a lenghty statement he said he accepted that the main reason for the tragedy that claimed 96 lives was a lack of police control.

 

But he added: “Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.

 

“But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.”

 

Mr Bettison worked for South Yorkshire Police at the time of the tragedy and was involved in the force’s response to the disaster.

 

Liverpool MP Maria Eagle accused Mr Bettison in Parliament in 1998 of being part of a “black propaganda unit” that smeared Liverpool fans.

 

Today she added her voice to that of Trevor Hicks, of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, in calling for Mr Bettison to resign.

 

In a lengthy statement he defended his actions and made clear he will not resign as chief constable of West Yorkshire Police.

 

His statement said: “The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much. .........

 

 

 

Read More Norman Bettison statement defends his Hillsborough actions and says fans' behaviour made policing harder - Hillsborough News - Hillsborough - News - Liverpool Echo

 

 

Prick.

[A.V.B.]

Prick.

 

He's got a point, crowd control is a lot easier when there is no crowd.

 

The fucking bellend.

[FanchesterCity]

And The FA still can't bring themselves to apologise.

 

*applauds*

 

THOSE fools are still doing it today... arranging games for the convenience of TV and money.

 

Asking fans to travel long distances at often tricky times in order to recover the costs of Wembley.

 

Ticketing arrangements that still see many fall into the hands of touts.

 

Ticketing allocations that show now transparency in how they are determined.

 

Extortionate costs for food and drink inside stadia (that encourages fans to stay outside the ground and arrive later) - whilst not entirely their fault, they COULD be co-ordinating efforts to fix this.

 

Old Trafford is a perfectly fine venue for Semi-Finals with a good capacity to please most fans 'from the north'.

 

The City of Manchester Stadium is a perfectly fine venue for smaller games where 50K capacity is enough.

 

The Britannia Stadium... The Stadium of Light...

 

The country is littered with fine stadiums suitable as neutral venues for many (possibly not all) games... but still, it HAS to be Wembley.... not for safety reason, but for money reasons.

 

They played a part in Hillsborough - but like SWFC and SCC, it suited them for either the fans or police to take the blame. As long as it wasn't them.

[John McClane]

The events of yesterday are more than i could have ever thought. I never in a million years expected an apology from Cameron and, i actually believe his apology was as heart felt as it sounded. Yes, he was left in no other position but to apologise, but the way he delivered it, well, i can only admire him for that.

 

The fight has to continue now though and, despite what we heard yesterday, we HAVE to keep fighting, accountablility needs to be found and individuals need to be punished.

 

Yesterday was an emotional rollercoster, as i was saying to my missus last night, I feel so happy yet at the same time sad and angry at what the families, survivors and us as fans have been put through these past 23 years.

 

I felt strange last night, like a weight was lifted, like I was walking 10 feet tall. I can only express my admiration and thanks to the panel, The HFSG and HJC and us reds who've stuck by each other through this. It makes me proud to be a scouser and more importantly, proud to be a red.

 

The clouds are clearing now but we still haev a long way to go before we see the Golden Sky at the end of the storm

 

 

 

My views are similar Cliff, however, the thing that annoys to extreme is how many people (people of power/ politicians/ monarchy?) have known all these facts for such a length of time. This is THE biggest cover up, but its not just the police that were hiding.

 

It has taken all these people (victims families) crusading for Justice for 23 years to finally get in. The wait is too long. As said on sky news last night, if this happened at the Olympics do you think we would wait 23 years for an answer? Would it fuck.

Part of me relieved, happy but also part of me still feels sick.

[FanchesterCity]

With regard to Bettison:

 

Police behaviour at the ground made 96 people's lives shorter than they needed to be.

 

Quid pro quo - Mr Bettison, Quid pro quo.

[Hand Shandy]

Someone should ask him to clarify exactly what he means by "fans' behaviour"...