Hillsborough files released next week!

[Trumo]

BBC One website says it's only being shown in the North West and Yorkshire.

 

My mate says the BBC programme is on Ch 957. I can't confirm that at the minute but that's what he told me.

 

Its actually 956 or 958.BBC Northwest or BBC Yorshire.Thanks for pointing me in right direction.

 

I got the info from here.

[TE-23]

Michael Mansfield qc is representing the families for free. His book 'memoirs of a radical lawyer' is well worth a read. He's no stranger whatsoever to cover-ups. What he has to say about de menezes is unbelievable. You couldn't have hand-picked anyone better for this.

[LFC64]

One of the paradoxes of our history is that our greatest glory years on the pitch in the eighties coincided with the sport's nadir off it. Taylor's observation of "A slum sport played in slum grounds" rings in my ears. The year of our greatest season in club history, 1983/84 was watched by an average of just 31,974 a game at Anfield. Twenty years earlier our title season was watched by 45,032.

QUOTE]

 

Attendances had been declining for a few years all over the UK due to the economic downturn.

Merseyside's recession pretty much started in the late 60's as the docks were dismantled. Without checking I think it was the season you mention above that saw the most dramatic sudden drop in attendance. And when you look at the depopulation figures for the city in the late 70's early eighties you can see the link very clearly.

[FanchesterCity]

It certainly won't say "police to blame, fans were faultless" but I hope that the major myths and lies are debunked.

 

Whether the families will be satisfied remains to be seen. Fingers crossed though

 

The myths and lies were debunked in the Taylor reports... interim and final.

Many people haven't read them though - and for that reason, popular media (newspapers, internet and tv) might reiterate the point so that people understand.

 

Regarding other folks quest for truth.... there are many truths out there...

Compassion, panic, bravery, horror, incompetence, fear... so many small stories exist, all of which are true from a particular perspective.

 

There's also the issue of 'truth' of what happened as it happened, vs the truth of what went on in the immediate aftermath, and then of course, the following days. It's the goings on the following days that MIGHT be the most damning (if there's anything damning there at all).

 

To be entirely fair too... the report clearly shows that there was 'acceptance' of the conditions for supporters... from the FA, the police and the supporters themselves... as awful as they were. The 'system' failed Liverpool fans on that day, and key individuals made mistakes - which, in fairness is the nature of many disasters... a culmination of errors, which had there only been one, or possibly two, might have been recoverable, but fate conspired against the fans that day.

 

The 96 unwittingly helped to make football safer. What a price to pay, but we must take solace of some sort in that truth. Maybe some of us are here today thanks to them... because another disaster would have loomed had it not happened that day.

 

As awful as accounts of that day are (and will be when new ones come to light) I'd urge any football fan to read them. It's a reminder, and warning - still relevant over 23 years later.

 

RIP those innocent 96.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Article on the Guardian website alludes to the fact that the report is expected to reveal "widespread failures" by South Yorkshire Police and other public bodies. Also states that the families are going to request a full apology from David Cameron.

 

Justice and, not total, but a degree of closure, may be around the corner.....Here's hoping.

 

Regarding the Cameron apology, not overly sure what that will achieve or signify. They should wheel Thatcher out, make her apologise, and help to ruin her legacy when she finally pops her clogs.

[Steve]

Regarding the Cameron apology, not overly sure what that will achieve or signify. They should wheel Thatcher out, make her apologise, and help to ruin her legacy when she finally pops her clogs.

 

Very good point, callous bitch couldnt wait to throw the blame on us, no way her private army that protected her in the miner's strike were going to get any grief over it. Too many fuckers still don't know just how low she used to stoop.

[Loki]

For me, an apology from Cameron or even Thatcher (wouldn't happen in a zillion years anyway) would mean nothing.

 

To the families of those involved maybe it would mean at least a partial admittance of guilt from those in government.

 

We were held up to dry by everybody involved, the South Yorkshire Police, the Tories and the kowtowing Tory media machine.

 

We have been lambasted by all opposition team fans ever since, as if this were our payback from being made to play at a crumbling Heysel.

 

I will be delighted at the report finding in our favour but it won't bring back the innocent lives of those who died that day.

 

JFT96.

[Paco]

For me, an apology from Cameron or even Thatcher (wouldn't happen in a zillion years anyway) would mean nothing.

 

To the families of those involved maybe it would mean at least a partial admittance of guilt from those in government.

 

We were held up to dry by everybody involved, the South Yorkshire Police, the Tories and the kowtowing Tory media machine.

 

We have been lambasted by all opposition team fans ever since, as if this were our payback from being made to play at a crumbling Heysel.

 

I will be delighted at the report finding in our favour but it won't bring back the innocent lives of those who died that day.

 

JFT96.

 

That's not going to change regardless of what is finally admitted. The ignorant millions believe that pissed up Liverpool fans without tickets charged a gate to get into the fa cup semi final at hillsborough and caused the deaths of 96 people.

 

I'd guess there's maybe only hundreds of well read, well informed fans around the country who have taken the time to educate themselves on what actually happened. The rest believe what they were told by the rags when it happened.

 

I think there will be an apology and then they will hope that will bring an end to it all. If I can draw a parallel with Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972 - it took almost 30 years for the government to finally admit the British Army were majorly at fault for the events of that day and David Cameron issued an admittance of this, absolved the victims and apologised for what happened on the day.

 

I would like to think that there is a lot of talking going on in the background now between the government and the families and while I'd love to see Duckinfield charged with gross negligence causing the death of 96 innocent football fans as a minimum I'd be surprised if that will happen.

 

I think the government will want to bring an end to this and the families certainly want justice and closure. It will probably come down to what the families are willing to accept. I would expect to see cameron make a full apology and admit that south yorkshire police were to blame for their failure to properly police a FA cup semi final and their repeated failures when one tragic action led to another and another until it reached the point of no return and then it was just about shifting blame.

 

I hope we are reaching the end of this long fight for justice because if the facts are there they should be laid bare for all to see. Then the prime minister should highlight some important parts like "Liverpool fans were not to blame for this awful tragedy" and the newspapers should report it factually and if the mutants still think our fans were to blame then their minds will never be changed and God help them.

[VladimirIlyich]

Getting the truth and getting justice are sadly two different things.

 

When the files are released' date=' how much truth will they show? and how much will be hidden to protect the guilty?

 

Until those responsible are dealt with in a manner that constitutes actual justice, and the REAL truth is told, nobody will ever have anything close to what could be considered justice.

 

On top of that, what can be considered as justice now? after all this time.

 

Its a total miscarriage of justice that it has taken this long to get to the stage of only just getting this part of it to become reality.

 

Related to but aside to the main topic, if there were any justice in the world, cunt Mccuntzie and his staff at the shit rag would be flayed and then rolled in salt and left to the dogs as a side dish.

 

JFT96[/quote']

 

Great post Moglet and Fanchester before too.

 

Those of us around at the time realise that the Government in power hated football fans as a whole and cities like Liverpool and other places where the people wouldn't kowtow to their policies at the time and the families of the Hillsborough victims where treated as such.

 

I still suspect,like Moglet,that the report will probably just rehash what we know and others ignore or simply fail to acknowledge and any blame will not fall on individuals but rather vague concepts of poor organisation or poor policeing rather than names and events that actually caused the tragedy.

 

I also don't feel that everything will come out until Thatcher and her fellow ministers are all dead and buried to avoid any blame being attached back up the chain of command to them.

[sir roger]

I am pleased that the families have had this opportunity to dig in to the files & hope it can give them some closure in the matter.

 

I suspect that, as others have suggested, there will be a bit of relatively wishy-washy blame attached to the police & authorities, and would expect a cautious apology of sorts from David cameron.

 

Like others though, I can't see it changing the view of the incident for an awful lot of people in this country who have made their mind up that pissed-up Reds fans caused it & can't be bothered re-thinking it.

 

You only have to travel outside Liverpool for a short time to face the inevitable ' Scouse thieves ' ' Scouser in a suit 'casual comments from people, who are then astonished if you don't think it's amusing in the slightest.You usually get hit with the ' Where's your scouse sense of humour ? ' gambit.

 

I think this attitude is more prevalent in the middle-aged onwards people whose attitude seems to have been shaped mainly by Carla Lane's Bread & the Sun's efforts over Hillsborough.

[Antynwa]

Will an apology this week constitute as Justice? I realise this is a matter of opinion

[VladimirIlyich]

Will an apology this week constitute as Justice? I realise this is a matter of opinion

 

No.

[FanchesterCity]

For me, an apology from Cameron or even Thatcher (wouldn't happen in a zillion years anyway) would mean nothing.

 

To the families of those involved maybe it would mean at least a partial admittance of guilt from those in government.

 

We were held up to dry by everybody involved, the South Yorkshire Police, the Tories and the kowtowing Tory media machine.

 

We have been lambasted by all opposition team fans ever since, as if this were our payback from being made to play at a crumbling Heysel.

 

I will be delighted at the report finding in our favour but it won't bring back the innocent lives of those who died that day.

 

JFT96.

 

I must take issue on a couple of points you raise...

 

You have NOT been lambasted by all opposition fans ever since.

You must never think that. There's not a sensible fan in the land who thinks the fans were to blame. For the first few days following the disaster, it was hard to know what the cause was... and during that time, yes, many assumed hooliganism was to blame. It didn't take too long to appreciate that wasn't the case.

Following the Taylor report, it became clear as day that no blame lay with the fans. Nobody thinks that (other than a handful of morons).

Of course, I can't truly speak for all opposition fans, but I think I'm on very strong ground when I say opposition fans may not like the club, or the team, or even some of your fans... but we are ALL behind Liverpool when it comes to Hillsborough. Hillsborough transcends any rivalry.

 

You statement about 'being delighted at the report finding in our favour' doesn't make much sense.

The release of documents isn't about any judgement, it's about seeing previously unavailable statements and memos etc.

 

A judgement WAS made by Taylor. There was enough in that report to tell all their was to tell (in terms of what went wrong, and why). It's already beyond question that the failings arose from a general apathy towards herding fans, and a poor number of decisions made about 20 minutes before kick-off that had a cumulative and fatal effect within about 25 minutes. That aspect is done and dusted - the fans were blameless.

 

The release of these additional papers, many hope, might give the following:

 

1) A few more personal insights into what happened to specific individuals. This is extremely important to families, some of whom simply lack detail about their loved ones fate.

 

2) Personal accounts of what happened that haven't been seen before.

These might just add a wider range of perspectives, but from a personal level.

 

3) Communications made in the immediate aftermath of the disaster.

These (many hope) might help to prove that there was a concerted effort to 'limit the damage' (from S. Yorks police, the FA and politicians).

It's one thing for the errors to have been made, it's quite another to have made them, then try to wriggle out of them, or cover them up.

If you made bad choices, and people die - that's awful, but it's an accident.

If you make a conscious effort to then hide your mistakes, then the penalties should be considerable.

 

It's points 1) and 3) that I think are the most important, with point 1) particularly relevant to the families, and point 3) relevant to the families and public.

 

 

But just to reiterate. We KNOW what happened (as well as possible). We KNOW the fans were innocent. We'd just like to know which (if any) individuals KNOWINGLY tried to cover things up, and to let the families have as much access as possible about every moment their loved ones endured (should they wish to know).

[FanchesterCity]

Will an apology this week constitute as Justice? I realise this is a matter of opinion

 

How could it?

 

The only real justice would be in PROVING that some individuals, or even organisations, KNOWINGLY attempted to hide the truth of events.. which is widely believed... and that those (if any) are prosecuted.

 

I don't think that will happen. And if it doesn't people will still believe the 'real' evidence was destroyed. There is of course, a possibility that no coverup happened. If that's the case, there will never be a resolution to it, because 'conspiracy theories' will always exist.

 

In my opinion, it's all beyond apologies now. The only 'justice' will be when every person on the planet KNOWS every one of the 96 was innocent. Most of us already know it, but a handful of morons still think the fans were 'partly' to blame.

 

The only 'partly' to blame aspect that holds water is that which could be attributed to any fan of that era - that fans 'accepted' being treated like cattle and put up with it, and that there was a tendency to arrive at matches with little time to spare. Let me be clear about what I've said there though... it was an aspect of fan behaviour that contributed to the problems, but it was a KNOWN/PREDICTABLE behaviour that wasn't managed effectively.

 

If there was any gesture that I personally would like to see, it would be for EVERY matchday program to contain a copy of the Taylor report for fans to read, under the heading "JUSTICE"

[boomer39]

fanchester,again, well said. but your point about fans arriving late is a bit iffy. i was coming home that day from stockport town centre to my house 2 miles away at 2.15, 2.20 ish..

there . the motorway thro' stockport to yorkshire had only been open about 9-12 months and there was "repairs" going on at that time. looking up to the motorway, there was loads of cars ,obviously our fans, crawling along... thought to myself, "them lads will never get to sheffield in time".. that was not a "tendency" to be late but down to shite road builders.... hope you see my point...

[Arl arse]

23 years of hurt, 23 years of lies, 23 years of taunts, 23 years of campaigning, 23 years of crying out for Justice.

 

Now I just feel numb.

[boomer39]

been watching lfc.tv since 12.15... what a day... there is a God....

[Ne Moe Imya]

Couldn't have asked for a better result from this report, in my opinion.

 

Still, as always, the King said it best: "Very positive outcome. 23 yrs waiting for the truth next step justice"

 

The truth is a big step. Now for justice.

[Gym Beglin]

Any further action will take a long time. Of course it should be done, but people should concentrate on the positives in front of them right now, today. This will set in motion the wheels of justice, but we're talking about prosecuting some well-connected characters.

Today was massive though, because their circle of friends has just gotten very very small.

[lifetime fan]

Hillsborough: Never Forgotten

 

Tonight BBC2 at 21:00.

[Nightcat]

Hillsborough: Never Forgotten

 

Tonight BBC2 at 21:00.

 

I watched it.

 

I thought it was very appropriate and decent.

 

What did you guys think?

[Heinze]

[Champ]

 

Not seen the programme yet but have recorded it.

 

Did that letter come from the programme? I've not seen it before. The arrogant and unqualified language and presentation just beggars belief

[Heinze]

Someone on reddit claims it's a response sent to his grandfather.

 

Sir Bernard Ingham's response to my Grandfather concerning his complaint about the treatment of the Hillsborough disaster : LiverpoolFC

[Rambo]

Someone on reddit claims it's a response sent to his grandfather.

 

Sir Bernard Ingham's response to my Grandfather concerning his complaint about the treatment of the Hillsborough disaster : LiverpoolFC

 

If its not legit there will be some people getting their arses sued off them! Even if its not, it pretty much sums up the feeling of the powers that be and the general population in that period.

God bless the families for not walking away quietly.