A letter from America...Henry.

[ChicagoRed]

If someone already raised the question, I apologize, but I'm concerned how Henry can say that lessons have been learned. 45,000 could have told him NOT to buy Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, or that Stewart Downing was not worth 20 million. The same number plus a similar number at White Hart Lane could have told him not hire Damien Comolli.

So who is interpreting the tea leaves today?

Who is telling him what is good for the club who has a clue? Clearly Brendan was not listened to, or somebody higher (?) ignored him.

I hope JW reads this Forum - despite the idiots - the vast majority display both an understanding of Liverpool Football Club and a deep commitment to its welfare.

God forbid it takes another two years of "harsh lessons".

The Bean Counters have an important role - counting beans. But the value is generated on the field. The increased revenue is going to come from wins, not sales of B players.

Who is telling JW how we can win that he's prepared to listen to?

[clangers]

I'm just estimating now... but considering what you've typed there... I reckon just to progress 'moderately' (couple of places per year) would cost about 35million+ every year on players, and 20million a year might keep you 'steady'. Spending less than that is probably running a risk of slipping backwards unless you have a particularly talented manager (and if you have a particularly crap one, you'll need to spend a fair bit more!).

 

That's the point, not every year. If our newly appointed manager spends the money this year then it has to balanced in future years. FSG have already stated that our manager would not be penalised for the mistakes of the former management regime. We also need to remember that as disastrous as Kenny and Commolli's spending was, they were blowing a windfall from sales rather than any substantial investment from FSG.

 

Why does our financial cycle need to be defined over a single year? It should be defined over several years and it surely is absolutely critical to allow our manager to compete earlier in his tenure rather than later. His demeanor and statements over the last few days of the transfer window were little short of desperate.

 

If we're sitting in the bottom three at Christmas I suspect we'll see FSG tear up the rule book and demonstrate how reactionary they really are.

 

If the club is genuinely in a position that it needs to rapidly correct it's outgoings then fair enough. I accept the limitations being placed upon us. However again I'm trying to rationalise this new found fiscal moderation with our chairman's statement in June where he clearly stated that Rodgers would not need to sell to buy and that we could compete with 'anyone' financially. Clearly that isn't the case.

 

Ultimately our chairman has either been selling us Tom Hick's level whoppers or there has been yet another rapid change of plan?

[TheHowieLama]

----

 

I expect the figures have increased, but not by that much... so looks like your figures are more accurate than mine.

 

Obviously the 'big boys' will add to this with there super duper merchandise and corporate activities... and suspect the gate receipts are 'every man for himself'.

I definitely recall reading CL success for Chelsea was worth about 45 million (to them).

 

They post the figures every year on their site- the reason I know iws some fella had mentioned it recently - Chelsea won 60 mil last year.

[FanchesterCity]

It's only fucked because we're shite, if we were any good there would be no complaints, I know it, you know it, we all know it.

 

If you could put your Liverpool persuasion to one side, and I put my City one to one side...

 

We've bought our way in to having a hope. Without the money, there was no hope at all... we shouldn't HAVE to buy our way in, but feels like it's the only way.

 

Liverpool are one of the world's greatest clubs - and it's not in the best of shape. There's something not right with the game when that's happening.

 

Man United (boo hiss) are also one of the world's greatest clubs - yet it's in debt to about 600+ million. There's something not right with the game when that's the case.

 

The Premier League's been going for 20 years or so... and it's been won by only 5 teams. 2 of which demonstrably spent a fortune to win it (Blackburn and City), 1 of whom spent a fortune over slightly longer to win it three times (Chelsea).

 

Only Arsenal could plausibly argue they didn't spend to the high heavens to win it.

 

And the remaining team won it for more than 50% of the time!

 

There's something wrong with the game when that's happening. It's not as bad as SPL, or La Liga, but it's still bad.

[Kevin D]

Can't help looking at the decision to remove Kenny in a new light, now. People are angry now, but if it was Kenny, and not Rodgers, who had been so obviously and clearly shafted by FSG like this, a full blown state of war would exist between us and the owners.

[TheHowieLama]

Can't help looking at the decision to remove Kenny in a new light, now. People are angry now, but if it was Kenny, and not Rodgers, who had been so obviously and clearly shafted by FSG like this, a full blown state of war would exist between us and the owners.

 

Well theres that -- or as was the discussion yesterday bar side with respect to a new light in hindsight - where would the club be now if Benitez had made it through the transition in ownership?

[Duff Man]

It'd be 911 times 2356.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Can't help looking at the decision to remove Kenny in a new light, now. People are angry now, but if it was Kenny, and not Rodgers, who had been so obviously and clearly shafted by FSG like this, a full blown state of war would exist between us and the owners.

 

Are you suggesting there might be a difference in how we view Kenny and Rodgers?

[xerxes]

We have a lot bigger buffer against slipping out of it than the likes of Ajax because of our global reach. Eventually we won't be in it, if we keep on like this, but we're not out yet.

 

I worry that our "global reach" is now historic.

 

The numbers show that we are competing with the Euro Elite in commercial revenues now, but that reflects historic performance and the prospects are alarming

 

These tables from 2011 give the full picture:

 

Football Finance - 2011 Football Money League | Deloitte UK

 

The summary for those note arsed to read is that we were sixth, but with every prospect that Chelsea and Man City are poised to overtake us as our perfoemance has declined, and theirs has improved.

[Kevin D]

Are you suggesting there might be a difference in how we view Kenny and Rodgers?

 

Just that Kenny's stature made it impossible - or too costly - for FSG to do things like this.

[Saintslfc13]

If someone already raised the question, I apologize, but I'm concerned how Henry can say that lessons have been learned. 45,000 could have told him NOT to buy Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, or that Stewart Downing was not worth 20 million. The same number plus a similar number at White Hart Lane could have told him not hire Damien Comolli.

So who is interpreting the tea leaves today?

Who is telling him what is good for the club who has a clue? Clearly Brendan was not listened to, or somebody higher (?) ignored him.

I hope JW reads this Forum - despite the idiots - the vast majority display both an understanding of Liverpool Football Club and a deep commitment to its welfare.

God forbid it takes another two years of "harsh lessons".

The Bean Counters have an important role - counting beans. But the value is generated on the field. The increased revenue is going to come from wins, not sales of B players.

Who is telling JW how we can win that he's prepared to listen to?

 

Bit harsh about Carroll, I remember quite a few being happy about the signing at the time just not happy about the huge fee and the circumstances of Torres leaving that enabled his purchase.

 

Other than that though I have to say I agree. They seem to be in over their head and they need to either get down to brass tacks and start learning or sell us to someone (or some group) with the cash and know-how to get us back where we need to be. The Dempsey not meeting the transfer strategy thing holds no water for me either, Werner opened his fucking gob about him, their own news network reported it was done, so they can fuck right off with that shit.

 

They can bandy on till the second coming about the financial mess they inherited (reeks of something politicians are notorious for though to me) and the commercial improvement in the club they've overseen but at the end of the day what sells is winning. Fans don't buy Liverpool shirts because Warrior signed a huge kit deal with us and Standard Chartered are emblazoned across the front, they buy Liverpool shirts because they like Liverpool Football club, they buy their favorite players shirt because they like his play on the pitch and particularly the global fans will be buying Liverpool shirts and memorabilia because they're winning competitions. It's one of the only instances where the OOT argument actually has a real point, some people are predisposed to supporting Liverpool by location and their folks.

 

In my case I started supporting Liverpool because my mother had a Scouse (Huyton actually maybe that makes him a WOOL, I don't know the particulars) friend and he helped me understand the game better than I already did (I knew more about it than your average American do to me being part mexican and therefore watching it at times with that side of my family, and less than a lot of you did as a child I'd imagine) and took me to English and Irish pubs over here to watch some of the games which were some of the best sports watching experiences I've ever had. Not everyone has a Scouser to show them the game and, more importantly for us, show them the club though. Most people support winners, as evidenced by the growing number of Miami Heat and Oklahoma City Thunder fans here in the States. No mark teams who never had any real success until recently and suddenly they've got loads of support. In fact in American sports I'd say the only team who's been consistently supported through thick and thin are my New Orleans Saints, I supposed you could throw the Boston Red Sox into that mix as well although they had tradition it was just about a century ago prior to them winning again and their support still isn't as global or nationwide as say the Yankees and probably never will be (can't stand either though to be honest).

[Guest ShoePiss]

Just that Kenny's stature made it impossible - or too costly - for FSG to do things like this.

 

Shit I don't know about that, they admitted to planning to fire Kenny if he had done a cup double or not. I understand saying it is one thing, if they'd been forced to play their hand (us winning the FA Cup) maybe you're right...

[Saintslfc13]

Shit I don't know about that, they admitted to planning to fire Kenny if he had done a cup double or not. I understand saying it is one thing, if they'd been forced to play their hand (us winning the FA Cup) maybe you're right...

 

I think they would've fired him anyway to be honest. They had a target and with the outlay it was perhaps realistic though with the players we got for that outlay it wasn't. Therein lies the problem with them not knowing enough about football though, had they had any real knowledge they wouldn't have made that kind of outlay for those players. They didn't, and so they allowed Kenny and Commoli to spend the money on those players. When you think about it, them not backing Brendan for Dempsey makes sense out of them not giving him the goal of 4th or done this season. They weren't prepared to see a similar outlay (regardless of wage trimming or net spend) so they reigned their expectations in. Seems fair enough, except we really need a big spend with their man to 1.) see if he's up to it, and 2.) have a chance at getting where we want to be.

[FanchesterCity]

I worry that our "global reach" is now historic.

 

The numbers show that we are competing with the Euro Elite in commercial revenues now, but that reflects historic performance and the prospects are alarming

 

These tables from 2011 give the full picture:

 

Football Finance - 2011 Football Money League | Deloitte UK

 

The summary for those note arsed to read is that we were sixth, but with every prospect that Chelsea and Man City are poised to overtake us as our perfoemance has declined, and theirs has improved.

 

I think once you've made it as big as Liverpool, it takes a long time to lose the reputation / prestige... but it does decline eventually. Winning the CL kept the legend going... but when I was a lad (living in Oldham) Liverpool shirts were fairly frequent... probably a 3 way split between City United and Liverpool. It soon became a generation of young kids buying United shirts (with the odd anti establishment City fan). That's pretty impressive for Liverpool, given the location!

Now there's more City shirts appearing.

 

Kids are kids, they see what's on TV and want to be Dalglish / Rush / Beckham / Giggs / Aguero etc and the majority choose the winning team.

 

I used to do a lot of global travel, and in my experience, foreigners only knew one team in Manchester, and Liverpool. It's a bit different now, but I can't see the Liverpool name fading for another 25 years (without any success).

[TheHowieLama]

In fact in American sports I'd say the only team who's been consistently supported through thick and thin are my New Orleans Saints, I supposed you could throw the Boston Red Sox into that mix as well although they had tradition it was just about a century ago prior to them winning again and their support still isn't as global or nationwide as say the Yankees and probably never will be (can't stand either though to be honest).

 

Or the Giants, or the Cubs, or the Redskins, or the St Louis Cardinals, or the Packers or.....

[xerxes]

I used to do a lot of global travel, and in my experience, foreigners only knew one team in Manchester, and Liverpool. It's a bit different now, but I can't see the Liverpool name fading for another 25 years (without any success).

The numbers do not bear you out.

 

In 2011 our commercial income was 75.8 e

 

Man City's, with just one year of CL was 57 e, Chelsea 68.8e. Chelseas CL win and our euro demise will certainly see them over take us. That has happened in ten years, with City it has been four years.

 

Commercial income, particularly shirt sales, is inextricably linked with TV appearances, TV appearances with success. If its Ballotelli in a City shirt, and not Gerrard in a liverpool shirt , banging in those CL goals that is the shirt that will be bought by foreign teenagers.

 

Our shirt and sponsorship deals were done in an era of Euro success, replicating those in the future, relatively, will be impossible. By contrast, Chelsea as Euro Champions, and City with a consolidating CL presence will only improve their commercial position.

 

In 2010, Arsenal and Chelsea were selling as many shirts as us -as league titles are unknown now to our fans in their early twenties, so the Miracle of Istanbul is unknown to our new teenaged support.

Revealed: the world’s best selling club football shirts « Sporting Intelligence

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Can't help looking at the decision to remove Kenny in a new light, now. People are angry now, but if it was Kenny, and not Rodgers, who had been so obviously and clearly shafted by FSG like this, a full blown state of war would exist between us and the owners.

That is very valid point but if Rodgers had bought the players Kenny did,us fans would of been calling for his head,way way before the seasons end.

[torahboy]

If you could put your Liverpool persuasion to one side, and I put my City one to one side...

 

We've bought our way in to having a hope. Without the money, there was no hope at all... we shouldn't HAVE to buy our way in, but feels like it's the only way.

 

Liverpool are one of the world's greatest clubs - and it's not in the best of shape. There's something not right with the game when that's happening.

 

Man United (boo hiss) are also one of the world's greatest clubs - yet it's in debt to about 600+ million. There's something not right with the game when that's the case.

 

The Premier League's been going for 20 years or so... and it's been won by only 5 teams. 2 of which demonstrably spent a fortune to win it (Blackburn and City), 1 of whom spent a fortune over slightly longer to win it three times (Chelsea).

 

Only Arsenal could plausibly argue they didn't spend to the high heavens to win it.

 

And the remaining team won it for more than 50% of the time!

 

There's something wrong with the game when that's happening. It's not as bad as SPL, or La Liga, but it's still bad.

 

 

 

And the Premier fucking League was given life by a baldy perm twat called Rick Parry. Between Sky and the FA, and that's like a sliver of shit, the biggest of all consumer cons was perpetrated.

 

The Premier League is absolute shite, mate. I'm happy....ish to see City get in the mix, but I'd rather see the likes of Tony Coleman. Glyn Pardew, 'Tinker' fucking Bell, 'Nelly' Young. Mick Doyle, Alan Oakes., Tommy Booth...... even that old twat Book.........win it on a level playing field than how they won it last time around.

 

Our game reflects our times, and the predictable miserablist triumph of wealth is football today.

 

Then why, if mammon dictates to such a pernicious degree, do we continue to follow our teams? Turn up at games? And hope? Because we're like all other fans; the ones who turned up at Peel Park until Accrington Stanley went out out of business. The ones who begged with buckets to keep Chester alive. The Rangers fans who found that only one side of Glasgow was paying its bills. We're in love with our club. And, like all those in love, we don't see the faults in the object of our passion.

 

We're blind, well intentioned and commited. Parry, the dirty, shithouse, cunt, amongst others, capitalised on that loyalty. And we arrived here.

 

Is it so bad? Well, a fall from grace - an amazing and dazzling grace, at that - is difficult to accept. Add to that the fact that your love is now passed from one 'well heeled' abuser to another, while you watch on helplessly, might make you wonder why you still you even care. Of course it's fucking bad.

 

But the hope still survives. The illogical and irrational still inspires the ripped-off, capitalised upon, arse-raped dreams and hopes that EVERY fucking one of us carries in our minds, in our hearts.

 

The money men - and football, to a greater or lesser degree. has always attracted them - will eventually have a busted flush on their hands. They will walk away. But we won't.

 

Pricks like Parry, and his fellow travellers, who created the current condition of the game, will claim that they advanced the sport. Yet all they ever really did was make it more marketable. In doing so they disenfranchised some of its traditional support, made it more exclusive and opened it up to the kind of speculative investors that would get Asil Nadir a bad name. (I know, he's aleady got one, but that's 'cos he's foreign). And, eventually, they will be trying to pluck a frog*.

 

Fanchester, I envy your team's success. But I wish I could hear Joe Mercer mispronouncing the owner's names and asking if that 'Checko' is a "foreigner". Old twat that I am, that would please me.

 

 

 

 

*Mister Aftershave's estimable father.

[Ciano]

Deadline day was a disaster but for me the question is did BR rush into the Borini purchase. He for me is the one with a question mark over. He looks an out and out Kuyt replacement. If he knew cash was tight should he not have been focused on a proven goal scorer and not leave it all til he last day. I get the whole Carrol debate but in fairness BR didn't exactly handle that with kid gloves either. He more or less stated that AC didn't fit his plan from day one.

[jamespp]

historically we're in the elite, end of story

 

its a closed shop of about ten clubs from round europe, city and chelsea will never be in it

 

granted were fucking crap at the mo but we still stand for something

 

besides, go and post on your own forums, you're never off here

If we're in this closed shop, were out of date!

Real Madrid - 0 years

Barcelona - 1 year

Man Utd - 1 year

Liverpool - 22 years

Juventus - 0 years

AC Milan - 1 year

Inter - 2 years

Bayern Munich - 2 years

Ajax - 0 years

[Chinandeler Bong]

Just get a FOOTBALLING CEO Mr Henry.

It really is that simple.

As for your letter ?

Actions mate. Write all the love letters you like but for the love of Fowler pull yer fucking finger out mate.

[Saintslfc13]

Or the Giants, or the Cubs, or the Redskins, or the St Louis Cardinals, or the Packers or.....

 

You could put the cubs there, Packers and Cards have a fairly recent tradition and the Giants and Redskins have been good as well

[nickjt]

And the Premier fucking League was given life by a baldy perm twat called Rick Parry. Between Sky and the FA, and that's like a sliver of shit, the biggest of all consumer cons was perpetrated.

 

The Premier League is absolute shite, mate. I'm happy....ish to see City get in the mix, but I'd rather see the likes of Tony Coleman. Glyn Pardew, 'Tinker' fucking Bell, 'Nelly' Young. Mick Doyle, Alan Oakes., Tommy Booth...... even that old twat Book.........win it on a level playing field than how they won it last time around.

 

Our game reflects our times, and the predictable miserablist triumph of wealth is football today.

 

Then why, if mammon dictates to such a pernicious degree, do we continue to follow our teams? Turn up at games? And hope? Because we're like all other fans; the ones who turned up at Peel Park until Accrington Stanley went out out of business. The ones who begged with buckets to keep Chester alive. The Rangers fans who found that only one side of Glasgow was paying its bills. We're in love with our club. And, like all those in love, we don't see the faults in the object of our passion.

 

We're blind, well intentioned and commited. Parry, the dirty, shithouse, cunt, amongst others, capitalised on that loyalty. And we arrived here.

 

Is it so bad? Well, a fall from grace - an amazing and dazzling grace, at that - is difficult to accept. Add to that the fact that your love is now passed from one 'well heeled' abuser to another, while you watch on helplessly, might make you wonder why you still you even care. Of course it's fucking bad.

 

But the hope still survives. The illogical and irrational still inspires the ripped-off, capitalised upon, arse-raped dreams and hopes that EVERY fucking one of us carries in our minds, in our hearts.

 

The money men - and football, to a greater or lesser degree. has always attracted them - will eventually have a busted flush on their hands. They will walk away. But we won't.

 

Pricks like Parry, and his fellow travellers, who created the current condition of the game, will claim that they advanced the sport. Yet all they ever really did was make it more marketable. In doing so they disenfranchised some of its traditional support, made it more exclusive and opened it up to the kind of speculative investors that would get Asil Nadir a bad name. (I know, he's aleady got one, but that's 'cos he's foreign). And, eventually, they will be trying to pluck a frog*.

 

Fanchester, I envy your team's success. But I wish I could hear Joe Mercer mispronouncing the owner's names and asking if that 'Checko' is a "foreigner". Old twat that I am, that would please me.

 

 

 

 

*Mister Aftershave's estimable father.

 

Good post. As yet I haven't looked into the new BT and sly money that is coming in on the next deal. For me its got to the point in england where any extra cash coming in goes to the fans via cheaper tickets.

The last place anyone wants extra money to go is players and agents. I was dismayed to hear Henry talking how unlucky we were been in poor little Liverpool and we can't charge the average cost per seat of London clubs.

 

ST £800 a year x 80 years = £64K

 

Or 3.5 days of Joe Coles wages. I will not be happy to see that figure rise to £1000 a year and £80K, for this still to be 3.5 days of Joe Coles wages.

[nickjt]

If FFP comes in successfully, which to be fair I doubt. But if it does then surely this will lead to clubs looking to get rid of senior squad fringe players on the cheap. If this is just around the corner it'll be nice to have some ammunition in our spends to take advantage of it.

If City wanna sign a superstar on £200K a week it could be where they need to get rid of 2 players on £100K a week and will look to do deals on paying % of contracts. Stab in the dark at optimism on what has been a load of shite.

 

On a sidenote I took it that any money invested so far by FSG was on the back of the Torres and Babbel sales + a normal years spending. I was still looking for the money they saved with the 'epic swindle' to be pumped in, in order to increase the value of their asset.

[Soleilrouge]

The honest to God reality here is that the club and its reputation is going down the toilet without significant further investment which FSG are not willing to fund.

 

The signing of three expensive duds last year is not a valid reason to refuse the obvious further investemnt required immediately to make us competitive.

 

The FSG strategy appears to be to hope that the UEFA rules will make us competitive again and we will somehow begin producing world class talent from the academy. Thats more of a prayer than a strategy.

 

The longer we remain uncompetitive, the less competitive we become and the more difficult it will be to recover.

 

Our expectations have been downgraded to the point of hoping to compete for a champions league slot. Shanks and Paisley would be turning in their graves.

 

This club needs two things - a world class manager with real money to spend to rebuild the team quickly.

 

FSG have decided against that and are willing to take a risk with our football club - even more so than DIC i n my opinion becaude at least DIC saw the need to maintain competitveness at the top level and gave Rafa funds for Torres etc.

 

The fans need to take more responsibility here and start letting FSG know where they stand.

 

The fans are being duped by PR.

 

We are no longer a world class club - on or off the pitch. We have a great history but not much more than that.