What does LFC have to do to be great again??

[John McClane]

We won't win the league under FSG. It's hard to see us ever winning it again without massive investment.

 

Can't agree with that.

Many of us, even in the media think we can crack top 4 THIS year (albeit before a ball was kicked).

 

If we as fans think City, Chelsea or United will always win the league then whats the point.

 

I hate the transfer window open in the season, Skrtel has just signed a deal, Agger hopefully will follow, we have Coates, Kelly, Robinson & Flanagan as youth. Sterling, Pacheco, Suso & Morgan hopefully making a breakthrough.

 

Lucas will be back to 100% after a few weeks and we have it appears hungry signings in Allen & Borini. For me, Suarez is a genius and in today's market is certainly worth that money. Big Andy..who knows, id rather he stay.

 

What annoys me and it has done for years is why, why we have so much fucking mediocrity at our club? Spearing, Adam, Downing are just not good enough. Bolton are looking at Spearing, a team a division lower than us, yet we started him in the FA Cup Final 3 months ago. How many assists has Adam provided from set pieces or goals, his Wembley pen is still flying.

 

What we have to do to be great again... is work together as a team.

Our Manager has the backing of the owners, they cannot sack him after 1 year.

Experiment in the cup competitions, and reward good performances with chances in the league. Play Sterling instead of Downing. Put Johnson in right mid and play Gerrard more offensively. Give Carroll a game with crosses coming in. A finer point would be to fine Downing £1k every time he passes back to Enrique.

 

 

You'll Never Walk Alone. Don't just sing it, believe it.

[magicrat]

Can't agree with that.

Many of us, even in the media think we can crack top 4 THIS year (albeit before a ball was kicked).

 

If we as fans think City, Chelsea or United will always win the league then whats the point.

 

I hate the transfer window open in the season, Skrtel has just signed a deal, Agger hopefully will follow, we have Coates, Kelly, Robinson & Flanagan as youth. Sterling, Pacheco, Suso & Morgan hopefully making a breakthrough.

 

Lucas will be back to 100% after a few weeks and we have it appears hungry signings in Allen & Borini. For me, Suarez is a genius and in today's market is certainly worth that money. Big Andy..who knows, id rather he stay.

 

What annoys me and it has done for years is why, why we have so much fucking mediocrity at our club? Spearing, Adam, Downing are just not good enough. Bolton are looking at Spearing, a team a division lower than us, yet we started him in the FA Cup Final 3 months ago. How many assists has Adam provided from set pieces or goals, his Wembley pen is still flying.

 

What we have to do to be great again... is work together as a team.

Our Manager has the backing of the owners, they cannot sack him after 1 year.

Experiment in the cup competitions, and reward good performances with chances in the league. Play Sterling instead of Downing. Put Johnson in right mid and play Gerrard more offensively. Give Carroll a game with crosses coming in. A finer point would be to fine Downing £1k every time he passes back to Enrique.

 

 

You'll Never Walk Alone. Don't just sing it, believe it.

 

We have mediocre players because we have been badly run for years . I dont need to spell out the littany of mistakes dating back to Moores time that have left us with an outdated ground , on a different financial footing to the top three or four clubs and a very inexperienced manager . It's blindingly obvious to everyone we have mediocre players because we can't attract or afford better ones . We can't even offload the likes of Cole

 

Yes we could do better with what we have and it is our only option for now but yes I do think the Manchester clubs and possibly Chelsea will continue to win the league for the forseable future. The point is we are in the position that most supporters have always been in insomuch as the team we support has virtually no chance of being champions. We have to deal with that reality and in time , if we can emulate the success Spurs have had or get back into the CL, we may just attract the investment to allow us to compete at the top again.

 

I wish it was just a case of sing and believe.

[magicrat]

Can't agree with that.

Many of us, even in the media think we can crack top 4 THIS year (albeit before a ball was kicked).

 

If we as fans think City, Chelsea or United will always win the league then whats the point.

 

I hate the transfer window open in the season, Skrtel has just signed a deal, Agger hopefully will follow, we have Coates, Kelly, Robinson & Flanagan as youth. Sterling, Pacheco, Suso & Morgan hopefully making a breakthrough.

 

Lucas will be back to 100% after a few weeks and we have it appears hungry signings in Allen & Borini. For me, Suarez is a genius and in today's market is certainly worth that money. Big Andy..who knows, id rather he stay.

 

What annoys me and it has done for years is why, why we have so much fucking mediocrity at our club? Spearing, Adam, Downing are just not good enough. Bolton are looking at Spearing, a team a division lower than us, yet we started him in the FA Cup Final 3 months ago. How many assists has Adam provided from set pieces or goals, his Wembley pen is still flying.

 

What we have to do to be great again... is work together as a team.

Our Manager has the backing of the owners, they cannot sack him after 1 year.

Experiment in the cup competitions, and reward good performances with chances in the league. Play Sterling instead of Downing. Put Johnson in right mid and play Gerrard more offensively. Give Carroll a game with crosses coming in. A finer point would be to fine Downing £1k every time he passes back to Enrique.

 

 

You'll Never Walk Alone. Don't just sing it, believe it.

 

We have mediocre players because we have been badly run for years . I dont need to spell out the littany of mistakes dating back to Moores time that have left us with an outdated ground , on a different financial footing to the top three or four clubs and a very inexperienced manager . It's blindingly obvious to everyone we have mediocre players because we can't attract or afford better ones . We can't even offload the likes of Cole

 

Yes we could do better with what we have and it is our only option for now but yes I do think the Manchester clubs and possibly Chelsea will continue to win the league for the forseable future. The point is we are in the position that most supporters have always been in insomuch as the team we support has virtually no chance of being champions. We have to deal with that reality and in time , if we can emulate the success Spurs have had or get back into the CL, we may just attract the investment to allow us to compete at the top again.

 

I wish it was just a case of sing and believe.

[xerxes]

We won't win the league under FSG. It's hard to see us ever winning it again without massive investment.

That is a disingenuous argument Paul, we never won the league between 90-2003, when we were amongst the wealthiest clubs in the premiership.

 

It’s an interesting observation.

 

I think that Paul is right, primarily because it is in FSG’s interests to get us into the CL, but not to bankroll a PL or CL winning side – there is no profit in it.

 

Whelan, factually you are right. But the cumulative extra financial advantage that City, Man U , Arsenal and Chelsea have enjoyed is such that I simply cannot us beating it by re-investing what we generate.

 

The reasons for the 90/03 underperformance are many and are not dissimilar to the Mancs post Busby.

[xerxes]

argh! (Thirteen players scored more than Luis last season- yet we triple his wages. Vanity over sanity.)

 

Vanity over sanity? If you can't see what Suarez brings to the table other than goals, I suggest you eat a few less prawn sandwiches and watch a bit more football when you are next in a corporate box!

 

That is an example of the confused thinking I was talking about - vanity v sanity.

 

Luis is a very good footballer who does some wonderful things other than scoring goals. But we want our forwards to score goals. we were outscored by relegated Blackburn rovers last season. Not only has he not scored enough goals, he hasn't contributed sufficiently to others doing so either. fact.

 

Points and winning are about goals. That's it.

 

Luis is amongst our best players, he is an asset to the club, I am pleased he is on board and staying with us.None of that detracts from the observation that trippling the wages of a player who did not score enough goals, or create enough goals for others, and paying him in excess of others who did, when he is under contract already, is questionable.

 

You may recall that Aldo, Rushy, owen and Fowler were not renowned for their mazy runs- but for putting the ball in the net. We could do with a bit more of that now.

[Major Tom]

 

You may recall that Aldo, Rushy, owen and Fowler were not renowned for their mazy runs- but for putting the ball in the net. We could do with a bit more of that now.

 

I definitely agree with that, xerxes!

[John McClane]

Did Moores ever show real thought into moving away from Anfield circa 2000.

 

Or was he just the big fan that was owner of the club he loves but really didn't know what the hell the business world was like? (I don't mean that as an insult).

 

Are we agreed that LFC is now a business, and will be run as one. If so would it not be business sense to build a stadium now so we have 30% more bums on seats on matchdays (therefore other sales increase = revenue for owners and team).

 

We should look at why Newcastle are successful in the transfer market, how does Wenger produce sell on profit player after player, why we allow Everton to buy Jelavic for a fraction we buy Carroll.

[Whelan]

It’s an interesting observation.

 

I think that Paul is right, primarily because it is in FSG’s interests to get us into the CL, but not to bankroll a PL or CL winning side – there is no profit in it.

 

Whelan, factually you are right. But the cumulative extra financial advantage that City, Man U , Arsenal and Chelsea have enjoyed is such that I simply cannot us beating it by re-investing what we generate.

 

The reasons for the 90/03 underperformance are many and are not dissimilar to the Mancs post Busby.

 

Arsenal do not have a cumulative extra financial advantage other than their consistent appearance in the champions league. You would think, listening to some of the criticism aimed at FSG that they are leaving us destitute, which is far from the case. This season alone we have spent £30m on players, we have given pay rises to Skrtel, Suarez and hopefully Agger, this is adding millions to the wage bill.

 

Champions league participation is the equivalent to £20m extra in your revenue, we have not had that for 3 years and still we have one of the highest wage bills in the league, so the extra revenue (that has been brought in in the past 18 months) is merely making up that shortfall and enabling us to maintain the status quo in regards to wages. The fact is that (and you sound repetitive saying it all the time) we can concievably have Caroll, Downing, Adam and Coates as squad players this year! That is almost £70m spent last year, this isn't because our squad is stronger it is because they were bought as first team players and have failed, each and every one of them has failed, so we have to keep them because they are on wages appropriate to a team in the champions league despite the fact that none of the teams that are actually in the champions league will touch them with a bargepole. We have a £35m striker who is telling us he will only sign for a club in Europe, despite the fact that he has never played in Europe.

 

That is an example of the past two years, go back further and you can see the same mistakes year in year out. An Academy that failed to produce a single first team player in over 10 years yet we still kept Heighway on because he was Heighway, and he discovered Steven Gerrard!.

 

The Hicks and Gillett years were an aberration and should not really be used as an example, they were a genuine threat to the stability of the club. But the fall out from their years was, Aquilani, Jovanovic, Cole, Konchesky, Hodgson, Paulson, and the Greek, almost £30m spent on fees alone, with nothing coming back. A wage bill that was seriously inflated beyond its worth, we are still dealing with Cole!

 

One mistake, then another mistake ontop of that, and then another and so on. We don't have a Torres to give us an easy £50m, we have Agger whom nobody wants to sell. FSG have given us more than enough money to expect far better returns than they have seen so far.

 

Yet all we have is fans messianic adulation of an extremely limited striker as the embodiment of Rogers and FSG's incompetence, rather than what he is, a perfect example of the continuous ability to make the wrong decision at the wrong time.

 

I remember when City where taken over, somebody commented that you should never underestimate City's ability to fuck things up! Well that is a title that seems to have been passed on to us.

[stringvest]

It’s an interesting observation.

 

I think that Paul is right, primarily because it is in FSG’s interests to get us into the CL, but not to bankroll a PL or CL winning side – there is no profit in it.

 

Whelan, factually you are right. But the cumulative extra financial advantage that City, Man U , Arsenal and Chelsea have enjoyed is such that I simply cannot us beating it by re-investing what we generate.

 

The reasons for the 90/03 underperformance are many and are not dissimilar to the Mancs post Busby.

 

We can't. But don't underestimate the additional revenue potential of winning the league. We can only retain our fanbase, let alone increase it, if we win the league or the CL.

[xerxes]

Arsenal do not have a cumulative extra financial advantage .............etc

 

 

I do not accept that Arsenal do not have a cumulative income advantage over us.

 

They moved into the Emirates in 2006. Matchday revenues have been around £60m a season more than us. That’s £360m in six years. Gross cost sits at around £470m, net cost after Highbury Fields and associated income is deducted is considerably less. Last year they brought in around £40m more than us. Their profit last year was £49.5m,- we lost £50m. They are ahead of schedule in paying down their debt. By the time we get around to extending moving that £60m matchday advantage ( inflating over time) will be net, the ground paid off.

 

I agree that FSG are not leaving us destitute or siphoning money off. They are doing what they said they would, allowing us to spend within our means.

 

The rest of your post is spot on and very well argued.

[xerxes]

But don't underestimate the additional revenue potential of winning the league. We can only retain our fanbase, let alone increase it, if we win the league or the CL.

 

When you look at what City and Chelsea ( and Barca) have spent to win their titles I just don't see how we can spend the extra money needed to do it, with £30m plus signings and £200k a week wage packets tacking on another £50m over a contract in wages, AND earn enough to balance that out by winning the title. If I am wrong,someone show me.

 

I think that our fan potential is underestimated, we have seriously underperformed the league growth since the PL, let alone capitalised on those who havent been able to come to Anfield.

[stringvest]

There is no getting away from it; the chances of us being successful (and the only true measure of success is winning things) without a large injection of cash are minuscule. That boat may well have left the dock with the double whammy of Dalglish's/Commolli's profligacy and FSGs realisation that FFP will not be implemented in any meaningful sense.

 

So FSG have to poop or get off the pot. For their own sake, as well as ours.

[Captain]

It's almost unreal thinking back to Rafa's last season when some wanted him sacked because ''we will never win the league under Rafa'.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Why go there.... For the love of god.... Why!

[ben48]

Arsenal do not have a cumulative extra financial advantage other than their consistent appearance in the champions league. You would think, listening to some of the criticism aimed at FSG that they are leaving us destitute, which is far from the case. This season alone we have spent £30m on players, we have given pay rises to Skrtel, Suarez and hopefully Agger, this is adding millions to the wage bill.

 

Champions league participation is the equivalent to £20m extra in your revenue, we have not had that for 3 years and still we have one of the highest wage bills in the league, so the extra revenue (that has been brought in in the past 18 months) is merely making up that shortfall and enabling us to maintain the status quo in regards to wages. The fact is that (and you sound repetitive saying it all the time) we can concievably have Caroll, Downing, Adam and Coates as squad players this year! That is almost £70m spent last year, this isn't because our squad is stronger it is because they were bought as first team players and have failed, each and every one of them has failed, so we have to keep them because they are on wages appropriate to a team in the champions league despite the fact that none of the teams that are actually in the champions league will touch them with a bargepole. We have a £35m striker who is telling us he will only sign for a club in Europe, despite the fact that he has never played in Europe.

 

That is an example of the past two years, go back further and you can see the same mistakes year in year out. An Academy that failed to produce a single first team player in over 10 years yet we still kept Heighway on because he was Heighway, and he discovered Steven Gerrard!.

 

The Hicks and Gillett years were an aberration and should not really be used as an example, they were a genuine threat to the stability of the club. But the fall out from their years was, Aquilani, Jovanovic, Cole, Konchesky, Hodgson, Paulson, and the Greek, almost £30m spent on fees alone, with nothing coming back. A wage bill that was seriously inflated beyond its worth, we are still dealing with Cole!

 

One mistake, then another mistake ontop of that, and then another and so on. We don't have a Torres to give us an easy £50m, we have Agger whom nobody wants to sell. FSG have given us more than enough money to expect far better returns than they have seen so far.

 

Yet all we have is fans messianic adulation of an extremely limited striker as the embodiment of Rogers and FSG's incompetence, rather than what he is, a perfect example of the continuous ability to make the wrong decision at the wrong time.

 

I remember when City where taken over, somebody commented that you should never underestimate City's ability to fuck things up! Well that is a title that seems to have been passed on to us.

 

Whelan, if ever a man had this club weighed up , then you have!. And i`ve been a supporter for over 50 years.

[xerxes]

It's almost unreal thinking back to Rafa's last season when some wanted him sacked because ''we will never win the league under Rafa'.

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Trumo]

Was looking for an old post regarding underdog mentality and came across this thread and this post.

 

All those of you saying we need a proven goalscorer may have a point in that it is glaringly obvious we need somebody who can consistently find the back of the net. I'm not going to dispute that. However, it has been an issue for us ever since the Premier League came into being, even though we've had players like Rush, Fowler, Owen and Torres in the side at some point over that time.

Consider this. In the 20 seasons of the Premier League to date, on only 3 occasions have we had a player score more than 20 goals in a league season. Fowler did it in both 1994/95 and 1995/96 by getting 25 and 28 respectively, and Torres got 24 in 2007/08. Owen, for all his reputation as a goalscorer, has never scored 20 or more league goals in his entire career!

Furthermore, in terms of league goals, we've generally only had one or two players hit double figures in the same season. In fact, our second top scorer has only averaged just over 10 league goals in a season.

The stats are boring and yet very revealing and my question is this - are we really a club in which a proper goalscorer can thrive? The evidence of the past 20 years suggests not, and it touches upon a few points I've made on different threads in the past.

We’ve signed too many players who are looking for a big payday. We’ve signed too many players who want to 'improve their game' (usually by some very arbitrary measure that’s neither quantifiable nor relevant to the actual matches). We never seem to sign players who just want goals goals goals, whether they themselves are the scorer or whether they like to provide the assists. We’ve also had far too many players and coaches who all-too-readily buy into the clichéd mantra that “there are no easy games”. Consequently, we’ve gone into far too many games expecting a tough game and that mentality has meant that these games have become far tougher than they need to be. If you keep telling yourself it’s going to be a hard slog, it will be a hard slog.

I want our coaches and players to be of the mindset that we want to bum the opposition silly every time we play. In most cases the scoreline won’t suggest a drubbing, but the mentality will ensure that the team is on the positive end of the scoreline way more often than not. An average player will look outstanding if both he and the team buy into that mindset.

Consistently playing for goals and wins will create consistent goalscorers. The fact we’ve not been consistent enough goes a long way to explaining why we’re seemingly desperate for a goalscorer. If we buy a goalscorer yet continue with supply-line players who shit themselves whenever they step onto the pitch, will the goalscorer be fed enough chances to make hay? How soon before the goalscorer gets fed up and decides to drop back to become more involved in the play, and start doing too much?

Somebody at the club needs to be aware of this and make a mantra out of it. The Liverpool Way is not about behaving with dignity and class. That is something a decent human being should be doing in life in general. On the pitch, the Liverpool Way should be about ruthlessly dismantling the opposition and making them fear facing the men in red.

Doing the above may not in itself make us great again. But the will ensure we are pretty fucking good at the very least.

 

It's almost as though this found it's way to Melwood and struck a chord with everybody given how the team did pretty much exactly the above last season! While we aren't in the same situation as 2 years ago, we do still need to ensure that the positive attacking mentality and desire continue to develop despite the loss of one of the world's best players this summer. Should we continue to do that but manage to align it to a much more stingy defensive set-up, we have the tools for at least another great season.

[Dr. J]

 

That is an example of the past two years, go back further and you can see the same mistakes year in year out. An Academy that failed to produce a single first team player in over 10 years yet we still kept Heighway on because he was Heighway, and he discovered Steven Gerrard!.

 

Pains, but had to be said.

[KopOut]

Win shit.

[Section_31]

It's a combination of things. It's not so much Chelsea and city's money we're fighting against but their 'aura', the notion that they're 'the place to be' if you're a top player.

 

I don't know how else to create that, possibly with success, but the draw of those clubs and their money at the moment is overwhelming.

 

That being said, I can't think of any club that's Spunked as much money on shite over the last ten years as we have, just breathtaking. There's no point moaning about money if Donald Trunp gives you £50million and you spend it all on Seamus Coleman.

[JagSquared]

Trumo - nobody likes the twat that goes round telling everyone "I told you so" or patting themselves on the back. But you were right on the money.

 

 

you twat.

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

The TK bump.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I know what you mean, Bob - I'm just a sentimental old twerp. I despise what the Premiership (and the Champions League) have become. Football at the highest level now reminds me of Rat Race - just a load of bored, pointless billionaires finding something to spunk their money on in a willy-waving contest of their own. It's not an inspiring sight. And it has nothing to do with the game and the team I love.

 

True greatness would only come by sticking to Liverpool values and still coming out on top.

I'll follow Trumo's lead and point out that this describes what we came within a bug's dick of achieving last season.

[El Dangerous]

I've always said that if we get more points than everyone else we'll win the league. What's my prize?