Joe Allen thread

[Trucker Paddy]

 

Thinking back he had a good game against Arsenal, so fair enough. And that was Chelsea's second team, so I wouldn't read too much in that game. If you think we'd have beaten Chelsea 4-1 in a normal game then you should think again.

 

But my point still stands, 2 games and a 30 minute spell isn't good enough for a Liverpool player. He could still improve but last season was far from good enough from Henderson, the position he was being played in isn't an excuse, because he played there plenty for Sunderland.

 

But you'd agree when he was played in CM he was a lot better, WBA at home was another game he was very good, created loads, unlucky to not score and was always looking for the ball, he's not a RM, and I'm a massive Dalglish fan but think he deserved the grief he got for playing him there as it was obvious from early on where is best position was, and it seems Rodgers also knows this and said as much in an interview.

If Henderson gets to play a run of games in CM and is poor then fair enough he deserves to be taken outta team, but my point stands if joe Allen joins us and is played on the RW how do people think he'd do.

[Glen C]

But you'd agree when he was played in CM he was a lot better, WBA at home was another game he was very good, created loads, unlucky to not score and was always looking for the ball, he's not a RM, and I'm a massive Dalglish fan but think he deserved the grief he got for playing him there as it was obvious from early on where is best position was, and it seems Rodgers also knows this and said as much in an interview.

If Henderson gets to play a run of games in CM and is poor then fair enough he deserves to be taken outta team, but my point stands if joe Allen joins us and is played on the RW how do people think he'd do.

 

Difference is though that joe allen has never played RW, henderson played A LOT of games for sunderland as a Rw. In fact in one season he played the majority of the season there. So dalglish thought he was getting a player than can play both. In fact sunderland fans thought he played better on the RW than in the middle. So that's not really a valid question to ask.

[Trucker Paddy]

 

Difference is though that joe allen has never played RW, henderson played A LOT of games for sunderland as a Rw. In fact in one season he played the majority of the season there. So dalglish thought he was getting a player than can play both. In fact sunderland fans thought he played better on the RW than in the middle. So that's not really a valid question to ask.

 

From day one it was obvious he wasn't a RW, "in one season there" he was 21 joining us FFS

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Henderson is widely considered to be crap, not one of the best prospects in Europe. Henderson did virtually nothing positive last year, Allen was brilliant. Step away from the tackle completion stats.

[Jose Jones]

Come on Hank you can do better than “crap”.

My problem with Hendo is that he doesn’t do much. He’s got a decent touch, can play the odd good ball and gets about the pitch well, and by all accounts is a good pro. He doesn’t score or create enough, and he doesn’t have any defensive presence either. He is going to have to massively step up and get the confidence to take games by the scruff of the neck to be a proper player. Doubtful to me whether he’ll be able to do it.

I have to admit to not seeing enough of Joe Allen to offer an opinion on him.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Crap is my mobile phone version of what you said. I did mention in another thread that he could be one who improves most from Rodgers' style of football. But you're right, he doesn't actually do anything productive.

 

I'm not saying he has crqp technique, just that he isn't widely considered one of the best young prospects in Europe. He's considered to be a bit shit by those who have noticed his existence. The notion that he can be the long term replacement for Gerrard is ludicrous, BTW.

[Coro]

Allen played much better than henderson last year. I think that's what most people are basing it on. Granted almost all our players under-performed last year and henderson was definitely not in a setup that got the most out of his strengths. But that is the long and short of it.

 

Also a huge difference between playing for Liverpool and playing for Swansea.

 

Rodgers obviously believes Allen has the attributes to make the step up but then what does Rodgers know about managing a club this size and what is required.

 

It isn't something new to see a young player used out of position. Going back years maybe some of the older heads can tell us a bit more? Wasn't this the case with Ronnie Whelan?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Also a huge difference between playing for Liverpool and playing for Swansea.

 

That's a fair point, but it doesn't mean he can't take the step up and improve when playing with the likes of Gerrard and Lucas. Judging by his emerging ability to control the tempo - something you don't see in 21 year olds very often - and his vision, he might well bring the best out of other players, too.

 

Rodgers obviously believes Allen has the attributes to make the step up but then what does Rodgers know about managing a club this size and what is required.

 

Well, that's a bit harsh and dismissive. He did work at Chelsea, helping to bring players through. Mourinho trusted him to develop players. It's not the same as having experience as a manager of a top club, but I'd say he has a bloody good idea of what it takes of a young player to make it at the top.

 

For anybody who is interested, this is from over half a decade ago: Brendan Rodgers Video. They big him up, even back then, and Mourinho talks about how Rodgers is the right man to bring young lads through into the top level at Chelsea. I suspect he knows a player when he sees one.

[xerxes]

There is nothing wrong with getting in young players with desire. What willbe of equal interest is who is surplus to requirements.

[Whelan]

I like them both, if we get Allen then we would have two good footballers, both young and hopefully both going to improve.

[The Woolster]

If Allen with his 36 games in the PL with almost identical stats to Henderson this season apart from the fact he tackles more but less successfully is supposed to be head and shoulders above him as some people suggest in this thread you have to wonder why clubs have not lined up to take him away from Swansea earlier?

 

Almost identical?

 

He attempted a tackle twice as often as Henderson and wins them more often, he attempted a ground duel about 1.6x more often than Henderson, and won them more than twice as often. He passed more often than Henderson which is one of your arguements about why Mikel is better than Lucas, as was passing accuracy, so lets not forget this comment:

 

For a midfielder I'd say around 90% and up is simply outstanding, especially over a season.

 

Around 85%-90% is excellent.

 

85%-80% is good.

 

80%-75% is okay.

 

Below 75% needs improving.

 

Allen was 91% to Henderson's 84%. He also created a chance more often, scored more often and had a much higher goals to shots rate.

 

 

Taken from a blog about Allen on the EPLIndex site Top Target: Joe Allen - Statistically Compared to Rivals | Opta Stats

 

Having said that, I do think there is a good player in Henderson, and I think he will improve a lot under Rodgers. I think a problem for him was perhaps he was given a bit too much freedom in terms of what he was supposed to do with the ball and where he needed to be (I think Downing had the same problem). If you are perhaps lacking in confidence it can lead to opting for the easy option, I think our new 'system' can provide a bit of a safety net for both of them by being told what to do rather than thinking for themselves, and hopefully their confidence can build from that.

[Jairzinho]

Code's big brother arrives to give him a slap, again.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Is this the part where code disappears for a bit and then comes back repeating the same shite a few days later? Someone described his MO the other day and it included getting slapped around with numbers followed by a quiet spell.

[Kennys_spell]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this but if not can I be the first. I haven't seen enough of either Allen or Borini to judge them and their suitability to be at Liverpool FC. I find no shame in that and certainly won't be sinking to the use of "Stats" to show my 'knowledge' of the player. (The use of stats is about as much good as looking at the cover of a book and judging it's content - perhaps some clever person should make up a saying based on that).

 

People (and a lot of people on here) talk of "one season wonders' and dismiss them but strangely enough there appear to be many on here making decisions on their suitability based on both players having played less than a full seasons worth of games in the top flight.

 

If we accept Mr Rodgers as our manager (and I believe the majority of LFC supporters have) then why not accept his judgement on the players he wants to play in his system and support them.

 

*On the other hand that would make for a shite Internet football forum so just ignore all that!

 

**Back to the bickering.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

They don't tell the whole story, unfortunately. When you look at Spearing's 86% and Gerrard at 83%, and that Gerrard passes the ball backwards more often, you learn to appreciate how shit stats are at giving a good picture of the quality of a player.

[TheHitman]

Interesting stuff woolster, bit worrying that he makes nearly 3 times as many backwards passes compared to Lucas who was more of a defensive player. Maybe with better players ahead he will be more adventurous with his passing. Less than a third of his passes were forward the lowest of any of our players. Not sure those stats show Allen in that great a light.

[Guest ShoePiss]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this but if not can I be the first. I haven't seen enough of either Allen or Borini to judge them and their suitability to be at Liverpool FC. I find no shame in that and certainly won't be sinking to the use of "Stats" to show my 'knowledge' of the player.

 

People (and a lot of people on here) talk of "one season wonders' and dismiss them but strangely enough there appear to be many on here making decisions on their suitability based on both players having played less than a full seasons worth of games in the top flight.

 

If we accept Mr Rodgers as our manager (and I believe the majority of LFC supporters have) then why not accept his judgement on the players he wants to play in his system and support them.

 

*On the other hand that would make for a shite Internet football forum so just ignore all that!

 

**Back to the bickering.

 

Nah it's been said by more than a few on here, myself included. I'm finding I don't watch anywhere near as much footy as some people seem to do as many of the players linked with us I know fuck all about.

[Kennys_spell]

Nah it's been said by more than a few on here, myself included. I'm finding I don't watch anywhere near as much footy as some people seem to do as many of the players linked with us I know fuck all about.

 

We should form our own "Clique" - we can call ourselves "The Uninformed enthusiasts" - Catchy eh?

[setreal]

Wait a minute? So Code thinks Lucas is an excellent passer of the ball? (86% completion, 56% forwards)

 

What is this I don't even

[CWD82]

Interesting stuff woolster, bit worrying that he makes nearly 3 times as many backwards passes compared to Lucas who was more of a defensive player. Maybe with better players ahead he will be more adventurous with his passing. Less than a third of his passes were forward the lowest of any of our players. Not sure those stats show Allen in that great a light.

 

Think it shows why we're after him to be fair.

 

We're going for a high possession game, you need someone who will move the ball all round the pitch and that includes backwards and sideways. It's about patience.

 

You would expect Lucas to play the ball forward more as well seeing as he plays deeper. Britton for Swansea would probably have a higher forward pass rate as he plays deeper like Lucas

 

Allen and Gerrard would really compliment each other in those two more advanced midfield roles. Then hopefully the Lucas that got injured is the same as the one coming back

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

1) 3 yard pass forward to a unmarked player, under no pressure = 1 forward pass.

2) 65 yard defence splitting Alonso special, under pressure from two players = 1 forward pass.

 

Stats = players are the same.

Watching = players aren't the same.

 

1)Carra kicking 3 yards to Suarez 65 yards from goal, Suarez goes on an amazing run, beating 7 players and scoring the best goal ever seen = Carra 1 assist.

2) Suarez picks the ball up from Reina, beats 7 players, runs passed the goal keeper and plays in Jonjo for a tap in = Suarez 1 assist.

 

Stats = Carra and Suarez are equally creative

Watching = Carra and Suarez aren't equally creative.

[TheHitman]

I haven't seen much of Allen just wary of one of the critiscms aimed at Swansea was that they lacked adventure and were happy to pass sideways and backwards. I think Wenger said something but he likes a moan especially if they lose.

[Jairzinho]

I haven't seen much of Allen just wary of one of the critiscms aimed at Swansea was that they lacked adventure and were happy to pass sideways and backwards. I think Wenger said something but he likes a moan especially if they lose.

 

Wenger was moaning about short passing football with little end product?

 

My word.

[CWD82]

I haven't seen much of Allen just wary of one of the critiscms aimed at Swansea was that they lacked adventure and were happy to pass sideways and backwards. I think Wenger said something but he likes a moan especially if they lose.

 

They definitely kept the ball at the back hitman with the centre backs keeping the ball. Allen was a big part of keeping the ball circulating.

[billypilgrimnz]

The point everyone is missing is that Allen is being supported by Rodgers, who Code has decided he doesn't like, so therefore (much like Rafa and Lucas before him) every single argument he has will be to justify that position. Hence defending Henderson over Allen, despite knowing fuck all about one of them. I mean, we are talking about a guy who will claim tackling is overrated and the best players don't need to do it (when criticising Lucas, who tackles a lot) and then use tackle stats to try and claim Henderson is better than Allen.

 

Anyway, Lucas has always been someone who looked to get the ball forward where possible. He does so quickly and concisely. Certainly much, much better than Henderson in that regard. Allen, I don't recall ever noticing before, so no comment.