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Neil G

Go fuck yourselves FSG

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12 minutes ago, Scott_M said:


They can all get to fuck IMO.

 

I think if FIFA impose anything they are entering some very, very muddy waters. 

Waters where every other club in the league will manage just fine but we will struggle like fuck 

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8 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Waters where every other club in the league will manage just fine but we will struggle like fuck 

 

I'd assume with rights to work etc & legal matters. It's Governments rights to say where people can and can't travel and quarantine, not FIFA's.

 

Are FIFA going to pay the wage of every player who misses club matches due to quarantine or their ban? 

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14 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Fair point about dross.... But I might argue most of that time it's been wanted dross. 

That's the thing.

 

It isn't clear it me Klopp doesn't 'want' Origi, Minamino or Oxlaide-Chamberlain.

 

He bought 2 of them, and offered the other a 5 year deal.

 

Again, the term 'want' is contextual, so it may be he'd rather keep them that buy the crap on offer.

 

And that is almost certainly, at least in part, due to the budgets. But he also puts loyalty high on his list of values, and sees this as a 2 way thing.

 

As long as you do what you're told, and work hard for the team, he'll honour your contract.

 

In fact, he seems to almost put as much emphasis on the team behind the team (those pushing the 1st team in training) as he does the 1st team.

 

And that's mostly about attitude, as far as I can tell. Showing respect, working hard, and adapting to the system, no matter your personal perspectives.

 

They were at pains to explain why Jota was the perfect signing last season, and it was all about playing different positions and being a natural presser.

 

Him being used to the bench must have also played a part.

 

I'm sure that if there were other Jotas lying around waiting to be picked up, we'd do the deal.

 

Then again, I still think we need to sell. I said it early in the summer. At least 1 of Shaqiri, Origi or Minamino would have to go. And most likely 2.

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11 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

Just send these guys on loan. Open up a squad spot. But he doesn't want to do that.

I don't think that's klopps decision. And I certainly don't think we would loan someone out and replace them with a permanent signing. 

31 minutes ago, m0e said:

That's the thing.

 

It isn't clear it me Klopp doesn't 'want' Origi, Minamino or Oxlaide-Chamberlain.

 

He bought 2 of them, and offered the other a 5 year deal.

 

Again, the term 'want' is contextual, so it may be he'd rather keep them that buy the crap on offer.

 

And that is almost certainly, at least in part, due to the budgets. But he also puts loyalty high on his list of values, and sees this as a 2 way thing.

 

As long as you do what you're told, and work hard for the team, he'll honour your contract.

 

In fact, he seems to almost put as much emphasis on the team behind the team (those pushing the 1st team in training) as he does the 1st team.

 

And that's mostly about attitude, as far as I can tell. Showing respect, working hard, and adapting to the system, no matter your personal perspectives.

 

They were at pains to explain why Jota was the perfect signing last season, and it was all about playing different positions and being a natural presser.

 

Him being used to the bench must have also played a part.

 

I'm sure that if there were other Jotas lying around waiting to be picked up, we'd do the deal.

 

Then again, I still think we need to sell. I said it early in the summer. At least 1 of Shaqiri, Origi or Minamino would have to go. And most likely 2.

I don't argue with any of that and mostly agree. But as you suggest part way through, just because klopp will work with players while they're willing to put it in, doesn't mean he wants them. But unless you're a tit, he's certainly not pushing you out of the door, even if as he's supposedly told Origi he's unlikely to get more of a chance to play than last year. But if he was offered 3 players who could play for origi, minamino and Chamberlain, I'm sure he'd have jumped at it. 

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19 hours ago, Kevin D said:

 

 

Ah, Dennis Tooth, the poster who never knowingly let a full stop get in the way of making a really shit argument.

 

Worth noting that, for all his bemoaning the state of our squad four years after the hated FSG took over in the post you quoted, another four years on with the cunts and we had one of the strongest squads in Europe, and a first 11 that was a match for any team in the world.

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2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't argue with any of that and mostly agree. But as you suggest part way through, just because klopp will work with players while they're willing to put it in, doesn't mean he wants them. But unless you're a tit, he's certainly not pushing you out of the door, even if as he's supposedly told Origi he's unlikely to get more of a chance to play than last year. But if he was offered 3 players who could play for origi, minamino and Chamberlain, I'm sure he'd have jumped at it. 

I think he'd replace the entire 2nd string if he could bring in players that:

 

a) have the right attitude to be able to support the squad even when not playing

b) are able to adapt to the pressing system

c) will settle in the Premier league 

 

He probably sees those 3 as ticking at least 2 of the 3, maybe even all 3 boxes.

 

I don't think it's as simple as budgets stopping him having 2x 200k a week players for one position.

 

I think it's his belief around money and loyalty. If he's going to spend big and offer a huge salary, he wants players who don't get injured, and who can play most games.

 

VVD, Mane, Salah fall into this category. As do Firmino, Robertson and Trent to a slightly lesser degree.

 

That's probably why Hendo's talks weren't smooth sailing.

 

Gini fits that category too, which makes me think that he wanted to leave, irrespective of the contract on offer.

 

The fact that every single member of our winning team (bar Matip/Gomez and Keita, for obvious reasons) have been offered contracts, tells me that.

 

Then there's the forward planning we do around ages and peaks. That's something we are not privy too.

 

To bring in a 'top' player to challenge the front 3 is a dream. To bring in potential like Jota, is in our ball park.

 

To have 2 or 3 of them will depend on outgoings, because the squad is 'full'.

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42 minutes ago, m0e said:

I think he'd replace the entire 2nd string if he could bring in players that:

 

a) have the right attitude to be able to support the squad even when not playing

b) are able to adapt to the pressing system

c) will settle in the Premier league 

 

He probably sees those 3 as ticking at least 2 of the 3, maybe even all 3 boxes.

 

I don't think it's as simple as budgets stopping him having 2x 200k a week players for one position.

 

I think it's his belief around money and loyalty. If he's going to spend big and offer a huge salary, he wants players who don't get injured, and who can play most games.

 

VVD, Mane, Salah fall into this category. As do Firmino, Robertson and Trent to a slightly lesser degree.

 

That's probably why Hendo's talks weren't smooth sailing.

 

Gini fits that category too, which makes me think that he wanted to leave, irrespective of the contract on offer.

 

The fact that every single member of our winning team (bar Matip/Gomez and Keita, for obvious reasons) have been offered contracts, tells me that.

 

Then there's the forward planning we do around ages and peaks. That's something we are not privy too.

 

To bring in a 'top' player to challenge the front 3 is a dream. To bring in potential like Jota, is in our ball park.

 

To have 2 or 3 of them will depend on outgoings, because the squad is 'full'.

The whole front 3 are waiting to have their contracts renewed, who knows what's been offered them if at all? They all expire in 2 summers don't they? 

 

As for the rest, lots is on budgets and wage structures. They've been pretty public via the usual club PR machine they broke the structure for thiago - previously we have only given the biggest money to players already at the club. 

 

I think money plays a massive part in all this. They pushed out too many stories about how the wage bill was out of control 12 months ago. It's a focus and I'm convinced klopp wanted new blood and what we sold wasn't enough to get him it. Honestly I was hoping some of the additional tight arsed nature of how they were behaving was they were actively looking for investment and in those situations payroll is almost as crucial as revenue and ebita. Now we had the investment I thought they may at least move to the model the adopted earlier in their time here where they'd get the players they wanted and would spend the summer clearing out the dross. It seems not, we're very much sell first, buy later. 

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While we’re all disappointed to degrees between some or all toys being dispatched from the buggy, I think it’s wise not to be offering big money contracts to Firmino and to a lesser degree Mane.  I can’t see Firmino being in the reckoning next season,  and I think we are probably resigned to not getting too much for him anyway.  I think Mane will come good, but I’m not sure his stock is high atm.  

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8 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

The whole front 3 are waiting to have their contracts renewed, who knows what's been offered them if at all? They all expire in 2 summers don't they? 

 

As for the rest, lots is on budgets and wage structures. They've been pretty public via the usual club PR machine they broke the structure for thiago - previously we have only given the biggest money to players already at the club. 

 

I think money plays a massive part in all this. They pushed out too many stories about how the wage bill was out of control 12 months ago. It's a focus and I'm convinced klopp wanted new blood and what we sold wasn't enough to get him it. Honestly I was hoping some of the additional tight arsed nature of how they were behaving was they were actively looking for investment and in those situations payroll is almost as crucial as revenue and ebita. Now we had the investment I thought they may at least move to the model the adopted earlier in their time here where they'd get the players they wanted and would spend the summer clearing out the dross. It seems not, we're very much sell first, buy later. 

Salah is definitely in contract talks, and I'd imagine Mane is too. I'd be surprised of Bobby wasn't as well. But the latter 2 are speculation on my part, granted.

 

In terms of the rest of your post, you haven't addressed the physical numbers. I get the finance bit. Everyone does. But we've got 2 players for every position. We've got even more than that at centre back and centre mid.

 

Most of those are Kopp signings, or were at least given new contracts - and pay rises - by Klopp.

 

This includes Adrian, Phillips, Williams, Milner, Oxlade, and Origi.

 

I get the idea of 1 more player up front. I think we could have managed that after Shaq left, and genuinely believe we couldn't identify the 'right' player.

 

No other club has bought someone that I personally think we should have been in for, and City couldn't even find a striker with their open checkbook.

 

The arguement that we "must" be able to find someone better than Origi doesn't stack up, because I don't think Klopp will waste money on someone he isn't certain he wants.

 

Although more than likely, that's for the very reasons you outline.

 

Finally, aside from the additional forward, I think it's unreasonable to expect us to sign anyone else until we've sold.

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10 hours ago, m0e said:

Salah is definitely in contract talks, and I'd imagine Mane is too. I'd be surprised of Bobby wasn't as well. But the latter 2 are speculation on my part, granted.

 

In terms of the rest of your post, you haven't addressed the physical numbers. I get the finance bit. Everyone does. But we've got 2 players for every position. We've got even more than that at centre back and centre mid.

 

Most of those are Kopp signings, or were at least given new contracts - and pay rises - by Klopp.

 

This includes Adrian, Phillips, Williams, Milner, Oxlade, and Origi.

 

I get the idea of 1 more player up front. I think we could have managed that after Shaq left, and genuinely believe we couldn't identify the 'right' player.

 

No other club has bought someone that I personally think we should have been in for, and City couldn't even find a striker with their open checkbook.

 

The arguement that we "must" be able to find someone better than Origi doesn't stack up, because I don't think Klopp will waste money on someone he isn't certain he wants.

 

Although more than likely, that's for the very reasons you outline.

 

Finally, aside from the additional forward, I think it's unreasonable to expect us to sign anyone else until we've sold.

Maybe Salah is in contract talks. The closest I've had any confirmation on that is the mirror. Even his agents tweet the other week could equally apply to "when are you talking to us" as "we don't like the offer"

 

As for the 2 players for each position, I blame greed of the club. Keita is still a Liverpool player because we won't accept a loss on him. Chamberlain is still at the club because we won't buy other British players because they cost too much. Origi is still a Liverpool player because we've been pricing him out of a move for years and thought we were clever protecting value by offering him a new contract. Neco Williams is still here because we wanted 10 million quid, when he's not worth 10 pints of Carling. Nat Phillips is still here because we wanted 15m for a player we'd have taken 1 or 2m for a year before. So if you price players out of moves, they won't move. So your squad is full. I very much doubt that is on klopp, it'll be on either Edwards or the policy provided to Edwards by FSG. 

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4 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Maybe Salah is in contract talks. The closest I've had any confirmation on that is the mirror. Even his agents tweet the other week could equally apply to "when are you talking to us" as "we don't like the offer"

 

As for the 2 players for each position, I blame greed of the club. Keita is still a Liverpool player because we won't accept a loss on him. Chamberlain is still at the club because we won't buy other British players because they cost too much. Origi is still a Liverpool player because we've been pricing him out of a move for years and thought we were clever protecting value by offering him a new contract. Neco Williams is still here because we wanted 10 million quid, when he's not worth 10 pints of Carling. Nat Phillips is still here because we wanted 15m for a player we'd have taken 1 or 2m for a year before. So if you price players out of moves, they won't move. So your squad is full. I very much doubt that is on klopp, it'll be on either Edwards or the policy provided to Edwards by FSG. 

That's all plausible.

 

Perhaps, that's why Edwards is out.

 

Does it change the fact that Klopp was the main factor I getting them in?

 

He's never shown he's desperate to sell, or get rid by any means. When he has made that clear, it's happened. By hook or crook.

 

Sakho, Benteke, Ibe, Solanke, Mignolet, Karius, Wilson, Grujic, Shaqiri.

 

Some of those we got what wanted in fees. Some we didn't. None of them made the 25 man squad, though.

 

Maybe the fees are set based on potential replacements? Or maybe Klopp has set the parameters himself?

 

We know we have a tight budget. We know Covid fucked that budget. We know Klopp has the final say on everything player related.

 

We also know he's worked with that to being in Jota, Tsikmas, Thiago, and Konate.

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20 minutes ago, m0e said:

That's all plausible.

 

Perhaps, that's why Edwards is out.

 

Does it change the fact that Klopp was the main factor I getting them in?

 

He's never shown he's desperate to sell, or get rid by any means. When he has made that clear, it's happened. By hook or crook.

 

Sakho, Benteke, Ibe, Solanke, Mignolet, Karius, Wilson, Grujic, Shaqiri.

 

Some of those we got what wanted in fees. Some we didn't. None of them made the 25 man squad, though.

 

Maybe the fees are set based on potential replacements? Or maybe Klopp has set the parameters himself?

 

We know we have a tight budget. We know Covid fucked that budget. We know Klopp has the final say on everything player related.

 

We also know he's worked with that to being in Jota, Tsikmas, Thiago, and Konate.

 

I agree with the last 2 paragraphs. 

 

I would say the only player he really pushed out was sakho.

 

Benteke we did the right thing and got rid while his stock was still high and increasing values in the market at the time meant we did lose on a dud (one which incidentally klopp didn't buy). And benteke wanted to play.

 

Solanke and Ibe I see as the same trick (we can add Brewster to that too), klopp talks them up and keeps them round the squad, while Edwards goes out and finds a gullible buyer. It is a reasonable thing to do, but hampers our ability to compete when we keep players clogging the squad when the trick doesn't work.

 

Ming made the move happen because he wanted to play and took a pay cut to make it happen. 

 

Wilson and grujic I see the same. We priced them out of moves and it had got to the point the players themselves had no interest in more loans and wanted out permanently forcing the club to take lower valuations. 

 

Shaq it seems like he struck a deal to stay last year after asking to leave, so we had to drop our pants this year. And karius. Well they've made profit on him regardless and he's still here because he's fucking useless. 

 

As I understand it, we use a data driven model to price players (in both ways) and we want to buy when we think something is below our valuation and we sell when it's above. And we stick in the middle where selling is concerned unless our "portfolio" of players needs them gone and the same coming in (like with konate this summer) - really no different to John Henry's life as a commodities trader. 

 

Edit... And with regards Edwards, I reckon Edwards just wants massive money and thinks the value in the data analytics is his. I reckon FSG think the value is in the data and someone else will be able to utilise it. 

 

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47 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

I agree with the last 2 paragraphs. 

 

I would say the only player he really pushed out was sakho.

 

Benteke we did the right thing and got rid while his stock was still high and increasing values in the market at the time meant we did lose on a dud (one which incidentally klopp didn't buy). And benteke wanted to play.

 

Solanke and Ibe I see as the same trick (we can add Brewster to that too), klopp talks them up and keeps them round the squad, while Edwards goes out and finds a gullible buyer. It is a reasonable thing to do, but hampers our ability to compete when we keep players clogging the squad when the trick doesn't work.

 

Ming made the move happen because he wanted to play and took a pay cut to make it happen. 

 

Wilson and grujic I see the same. We priced them out of moves and it had got to the point the players themselves had no interest in more loans and wanted out permanently forcing the club to take lower valuations. 

 

Shaq it seems like he struck a deal to stay last year after asking to leave, so we had to drop our pants this year. And karius. Well they've made profit on him regardless and he's still here because he's fucking useless. 

 

As I understand it, we use a data driven model to price players (in both ways) and we want to buy when we think something is below our valuation and we sell when it's above. And we stick in the middle where selling is concerned unless our "portfolio" of players needs them gone and the same coming in (like with konate this summer) - really no different to John Henry's life as a commodities trader. 

 

Edit... And with regards Edwards, I reckon Edwards just wants massive money and thinks the value in the data analytics is his. I reckon FSG think the value is in the data and someone else will be able to utilise it. 

 

None of those players made the Premier league squad, was my point. He either sold them or loaned them.

 

He doesn't seem to keep players he doesn't want.

 

And it's not just about direct impact on the 1st team. It's about what goes on behind closed doors too.

 

I don't buy into the idea that he wants rid of Origi, Minamino, Oxlade, Keita, Phillips.

 

He gave Adrian a new deal for gods sake. That has little to do with 1st team impact, in my opinion.

 

There's nothing to suggest he's forced to keep these players, and history suggests they wouldn't be here if he didn't want them here.

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30 minutes ago, m0e said:

None of those players made the Premier league squad, was my point. He either sold them or loaned them.

 

He doesn't seem to keep players he doesn't want.

 

And it's not just about direct impact on the 1st team. It's about what goes on behind closed doors too.

 

I don't buy into the idea that he wants rid of Origi, Minamino, Oxlade, Keita, Phillips.

 

He gave Adrian a new deal for gods sake. That has little to do with 1st team impact, in my opinion.

 

There's nothing to suggest he's forced to keep these players, and history suggests they wouldn't be here if he didn't want them here.

I think we'll mostly have to agree.to disagree. I think klopp is someone who's quite happy to get on with the job with the tools he's given. It's what he's paid to do. It's like this nonsense people used to spout that he wouldn't spend big - then he was given money and the 1st thing he did was break the world record fees for a defender and a keeper. I think those players you list he'll put up with because they're good lads, if the club could get the value they want he'd happily sell them and get someone new. Out of the Wilson/grujic etc not making the squad, it's because we have a squad limit and they all can't make it and we run a Poundland version of the Chelsea people trafficking scam. 

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24 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think we'll mostly have to agree.to disagree. I think klopp is someone who's quite happy to get on with the job with the tools he's given. It's what he's paid to do. It's like this nonsense people used to spout that he wouldn't spend big - then he was given money and the 1st thing he did was break the world record fees for a defender and a keeper. I think those players you list he'll put up with because they're good lads, if the club could get the value they want he'd happily sell them and get someone new. Out of the Wilson/grujic etc not making the squad, it's because we have a squad limit and they all can't make it and we run a Poundland version of the Chelsea people trafficking scam. 

So, he was "given" Oxlade, Keita, Minamino?

 

And he's now got to "put up" with them?

 

Explain that to me.

 

If you're suggesting he decided he doesn't want them anymore, that's a different argument.

 

But they're his players.

 

I think his ego may stop him admitting they are failures, more than FSG stopping him from trading them.

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4 minutes ago, m0e said:

So, he was "given" Oxlade, Keita, Minamino?

 

And he's now got to "put up" with them?

 

Explain that to me.

 

If you're suggesting he decided he doesn't want them anymore, that's a different argument.

 

But they're his players.

 

I think his ego may stop him admitting they are failures, more than FSG stopping him from trading them.

I'm sure he sanctioned all 3 coming in, and like every manager that has ever existed he got some wrong. He has eyes like the rest of us and will clearly be able to see they're shit. It's why Chamberlain can barely get a minute. Why he loaned minamino and he can barely get on the bench and why keita was dropped to play the European champions and was replaced with a right sided 8 in his slot while an 18 year old with 1 games experience of playing midfield got to play the right 8. Yes, he puts up with them. I bet he'd be delighted if they were sold. But until someone offers a price the club will take, he puts up with them and works with them providing they're professional. If they're not, see sakho. 

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9 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm sure he sanctioned all 3 coming in, and like every manager that has ever existed he got some wrong. He has eyes like the rest of us and will clearly be able to see they're shit. It's why Chamberlain can barely get a minute. Why he loaned minamino and he can barely get on the bench and why keita was dropped to play the European champions and was replaced with a right sided 8 in his slot while an 18 year old with 1 games experience of playing midfield got to play the right 8. Yes, he puts up with them. I bet he'd be delighted if they were sold. But until someone offers a price the club will take, he puts up with them and works with them providing they're professional. If they're not, see sakho. 

Why didn't he put up with Grujic and Wilson then? Why did he keep loaning them?

 

It's way too simplistic.

 

Shaqiri wasn't sold because we got the price we wanted. He was sold because Klopp didn't want him anymore.

 

We then got the best deal we could for him.

 

I'm not saying the budgets and finances don't play a part in that decision making, but it's not the only part.

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44 minutes ago, m0e said:

Why didn't he put up with Grujic and Wilson then? Why did he keep loaning them?

 

It's way too simplistic.

 

Shaqiri wasn't sold because we got the price we wanted. He was sold because Klopp didn't want him anymore.

 

We then got the best deal we could for him.

 

I'm not saying the budgets and finances don't play a part in that decision making, but it's not the only part.

Because grujic and Wilson were part of the Chelsea loan scheme lite. 

 

Shaq said himself the club agreed to sell him at HIS request after asking him to stay a year ago. 

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15 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Because grujic and Wilson were part of the Chelsea loan scheme lite. 

 

Shaq said himself the club agreed to sell him at HIS request after asking him to stay a year ago. 

First sentence: How do you know that?

 

Second sentence: Where did he say that?

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17 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Because grujic and Wilson were part of the Chelsea loan scheme lite. 

 

Shaq said himself the club agreed to sell him at HIS request after asking him to stay a year ago. 

On one hand you say we have to sell at a specific price, on the other you suggest players can leave whenever they want and we'll take whatever we're offered. 

 

All due respect, you're all over the place.

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12 minutes ago, m0e said:

On one hand you say we have to sell at a specific price, on the other you suggest players can leave whenever they want and we'll take whatever we're offered. 

 

All due respect, you're all over the place.

What makes that all over the place? You have no idea what he has in his contract. He was picked up on a release clause, meaning he held all the cards and it would seem likely he would want something similar here. Clearly he has the ability to go at some type of agreed price, because that's why he's not here now. Klopp always says he wants players who want to be here. Shaq made it clear he didn't. We bought Shaq for 13m on a 4 or 5 year deal. With amortisation taken into account, it's still a profit/break even on him selling at the price we did. 

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40 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

What makes that all over the place? You have no idea what he has in his contract. He was picked up on a release clause, meaning he held all the cards and it would seem likely he would want something similar here. Clearly he has the ability to go at some type of agreed price, because that's why he's not here now. Klopp always says he wants players who want to be here. Shaq made it clear he didn't. We bought Shaq for 13m on a 4 or 5 year deal. With amortisation taken into account, it's still a profit/break even on him selling at the price we did. 

Yes, and YOU have no idea what's in his contract.

 

We don't have release clauses in any of our contracts, or at least that's what we're led to believe.

 

I'll ask again:

 

1 -Where is the proof that we have a "Chelsea lite system", whatever the fuck that means?

 

And

 

2 - Where did Shaq say he was sold because of his own request?

 

I'll add a third:

 

If the players Klopp wants rid of - players he bought - don't want to leave, what would you like to happen then?

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