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Neil G

Go fuck yourselves FSG

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6 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

 

I would call them no-brainers, personally.

 

On Anfield, once you got to know football fans and speak to them at length, the way FSG did, I think a few things became obvious. Firstly, they talk about history, prestige, integrity, but to an absolute man - they, we really, are liars.

 

If Genghis Khan was reborn and got the Liverpool job, there would be tens of threads on here calling the Chinese liars and going through historiography in glandular detail to paint Khan as a hero. We care about winning and will subordinate any other concerns to that. The thing we condemn someone else for doing, we're in favour of if it benefits Liverpool.

 

Rightly so, we are liverpool fans.

 

So if leaving Anfield meant we could win dozens more trophies, that's what we advocate. Especially, as we would still call it Anfield anyway, and wouldn't talk to people who called it otherwise.

 

On the Klopp front  - they got lucky. They went all in with Rodgers and were wildly seduced by him. The point where they figured out they had been took happened to coincide with a once in a millennium maestro undergoing a cataclysm of bad luck where every Dortmund observer will tell you that they were extraordinarily unlucky, causing said maestro to have a sabbatical.

 

They've done a fine job developing the club commercially. The most critical FSG poster on here wouldn't deny that - be it Daisy, or Barry Wom.

 

However the entire edifice is built on a Barcaesque quick sand. They have Messi. We have Klopp.

 

Nobody on here could name the last two Barca managers to win the title, because Messi won those titles. And if we had the same structure, same players, but Ancelotti, or Guardiola, or Zidane, or Mancini, or any other brilliant manager we would be fucked.

 

We saw how their framework worked before, and it was nothing short of disastrous .

Just posted something similar. it will be something of an eye opening when Jurgen leaves for a lot of our fans, who seem to have this chronic apathy towards success over bean counting.

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4 hours ago, deiseach said:

I think what we see with FSG is something that is particular to FSG rather than being a widespread feature of modern football. They are what Tom Wolfe labelled 'Masters of the Universe', thinking that everything they do is brilliance and they don't consult the little people on anything. Other owners are happy to bob along hoping something will turn up rather than actively changing things. FSG, on the other hand, are not ones for leaving well enough alone. The ESL is the classic example of this. They think the financial basis of football is nuts and something must be done about it. The ESL is something, therefore we have to do it. In fairness, you can add expanding Anfield and hiring Jurgen Klopp to your list. And before anyone says they were no-brainers, staying at Anfield was not the consensus choice among the fanbase, many of whom were seduced by the shiny new thing - gee, where can we see that at play now? - and Klopp could have had his choice of clubs, yet it was FSG who landed him.

I disagree with your point of view on the stadium. I think everyone had a heavy heart about leaving Anfield. But planning laws changed between the Moores era and the FSG era, meaning expansion of the main stand was possible. It previously wasn't an option. So it was stay as we are or go new. Moores/Parry's and H&G failure to move the stadium forward actually created the opportunity to stay. FSG have benefitted but still done it at a snails pace. They've been our owners for 10 years and we're only now embarking on the phase to get to 60k they promised on arrival. 

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There is something IMO not 'right' about our finances....something that we are doing strategically financially that just does not feel right to me.

 

Whether it is wages/bonuses or running costs or how much we actually get from commercial deals etc i don't know but for me something is off.

 

We have one of the biggest turnovers in the world....we have a huge worldwide fan base, we fill our ground which is a big one every week....we have a big list of commercial partners, and reportedly the key main deals are very lucrative (amongst best in PL) ..our % of turnover spent on wages is reported to be about average for the PL.

 

We have been very succesful in recent times - picking up lots of money from our successes in Europe and the PL - i think in the 97 pts season we topped the table for money earned when all the tv and prize money was added up....we are never off the telly really so must be getting the maximum share of that revenue stream from domestic and european sources.

 

Yet all that said we don't seem to be in an obviously very strong financial position at all really - and the pleading poverty thing that seems to be the narrative that follows us around just does not for me seem to feel right.

 

I am not saying there is anything dodgy going on, and it is clear as a club we have made improvements to things like finally adding a few thousand to the capacity, growing revenue streams commercially....but it does just niggle away that somehow we don't seem to be outwardly any wealthier from it/have the financial clout we might.

 

Is it a case of costs have not been controlled enough...are we not very clever with our financial strategy? Or is it more that things were much worse than we realised before and the reset and subsequent rebuild of club has had to be slow and steady and we are building a sound base from which to kick on from and become more powerful financially?

 

I am no financial expert (as this post clearly shows) but as i say it just does not feel right to me....i realise Covid has hit everybody and our timing is lousy really, finally scaling the mountain when the world is on lockdown and the arse falling out of everything across so many economies etc....the losses for clubs are clearly substantial, but surely manageable? Covid and its impact is an equal bastard to all clubs of course too (the cheats and the clubs with sugar daddys aside i suppose)

 

I don't know maybe overthinking it - but as i say i just feel we should be stronger financially and certainly for me more ambitious....maybe that is it actually, maybe what it is is that i feel we are too risk averse?

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49 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

 

I would call them no-brainers, personally.

 

On Anfield, once you got to know football fans and speak to them at length, the way FSG did, I think a few things became obvious. Firstly, they talk about history, prestige, integrity, but to an absolute man - they, we really, are liars.

 

If Genghis Khan was reborn and got the Liverpool job, there would be tens of threads on here calling the Chinese liars and going through historiography in glandular detail to paint Khan as a hero. We care about winning and will subordinate any other concerns to that. The thing we condemn someone else for doing, we're in favour of if it benefits Liverpool.

 

Rightly so, we are liverpool fans.

 

So if leaving Anfield meant we could win dozens more trophies, that's what we advocate. Especially, as we would still call it Anfield anyway, and wouldn't talk to people who called it otherwise.

 

On the Klopp front  - they got lucky. They went all in with Rodgers and were wildly seduced by him. The point where they figured out they had been took happened to coincide with a once in a millennium maestro undergoing a cataclysm of bad luck where every Dortmund observer will tell you that they were extraordinarily unlucky, causing said maestro to have a sabbatical.

 

They've done a fine job developing the club commercially. The most critical FSG poster on here wouldn't deny that - be it Daisy, or Barry Wom.

 

However the entire edifice is built on a Barcaesque quick sand. They have Messi. We have Klopp.

 

Nobody on here could name the last two Barca managers to win the title, because Messi won those titles. And if we had the same structure, same players, but Ancelotti, or Guardiola, or Zidane, or Mancini, or any other brilliant manager we would be fucked.

 

We saw how their framework worked before, and it was nothing short of disastrous .

We didn't win anything until VVD arrived, and won nothing since he's been injured.

 

In the same way you talk about Messi, I could make a strong case that it wasn't Klopp, it was VVD as the single reason we've won what we did.

 

To put any form of success down to a single factor, is navie at best.

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Just now, m0e said:

We didn't win anything until VVD arrived, and won nothing since he's been injured.

 

In the same way you talk about Messi, I could make a strong case that it wasn't Klopp, it was VVD as the single reason we've won what we did.

 

To put any form of success down to a single factor, is navie at best.

 

Van Dijk is the best CB in the world today and is neck and neck with De Bruyne as the best player in the country.

 

However, I still think we win the title in 19/20 and  the '19 Champions league with a Koulibaly, with a Varane, with a fucking boss top 5 cb in the world. 

 

I don't think that equivalence could be made managerially - I don't think any of the top 5 managers in the business could have come back with the same level of success in the exact circumstances, same players, same momentum, same infrastructure.

 

If Klopp had bought Koulibaly instead of Van Dijk, we'd still have won everything. If FSG had hired Guardiola/Wenger/Ferguson/Sacchi instead of Klopp, I don't think that's true.

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50 minutes ago, an tha said:

There is something IMO not 'right' about our finances....something that we are doing strategically financially that just does not feel right to me.

 

Whether it is wages/bonuses or running costs or how much we actually get from commercial deals etc i don't know but for me something is off.

 

We have one of the biggest turnovers in the world....we have a huge worldwide fan base, we fill our ground which is a big one every week....we have a big list of commercial partners, and reportedly the key main deals are very lucrative (amongst best in PL) ..our % of turnover spent on wages is reported to be about average for the PL.

 

We have been very succesful in recent times - picking up lots of money from our successes in Europe and the PL - i think in the 97 pts season we topped the table for money earned when all the tv and prize money was added up....we are never off the telly really so must be getting the maximum share of that revenue stream from domestic and european sources.

 

Yet all that said we don't seem to be in an obviously very strong financial position at all really - and the pleading poverty thing that seems to be the narrative that follows us around just does not for me seem to feel right.

 

I am not saying there is anything dodgy going on, and it is clear as a club we have made improvements to things like finally adding a few thousand to the capacity, growing revenue streams commercially....but it does just niggle away that somehow we don't seem to be outwardly any wealthier from it/have the financial clout we might.

 

Is it a case of costs have not been controlled enough...are we not very clever with our financial strategy? Or is it more that things were much worse than we realised before and the reset and subsequent rebuild of club has had to be slow and steady and we are building a sound base from which to kick on from and become more powerful financially?

 

I am no financial expert (as this post clearly shows) but as i say it just does not feel right to me....i realise Covid has hit everybody and our timing is lousy really, finally scaling the mountain when the world is on lockdown and the arse falling out of everything across so many economies etc....the losses for clubs are clearly substantial, but surely manageable? Covid and its impact is an equal bastard to all clubs of course too (the cheats and the clubs with sugar daddys aside i suppose)

 

I don't know maybe overthinking it - but as i say i just feel we should be stronger financially and certainly for me more ambitious....maybe that is it actually, maybe what it is is that i feel we are too risk averse?

I think we very obviously pay top wages, the last player we lost because they wanted more money was Sterling.


We have absolute top players, and the only time they think of leaving is like Gini at the end of his contact when we let them go.


FSG should have paid for the stadium development out of their own cash though, rather than the club funding it, but they don’t.

 

It’s an interesting argument I reckon, whether they should go all in now while we’ve got Klopp, or save up the cash for when we have the next, presumably less good, manager?
Make hay while the sun shines and then go through a lull, or try to keep things even?

 

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There is nothing to say FSG won't go an hire the next "no brainer" when the time comes. They won't skimp on a manager as they understand he's the one that makes the money tree grow. 

 

Klopp is the key to the success but its disrespectful to say its all on him and would collapse once he leaves. If he goes in 2 years time he leaves the new guy with the best keeper in the world, the best 2 fullbacks and possibly the best defensive midfielder. That is at the bare minimum, Konate’s will be here whatever his success or lack of it, the recoveries of Gomez and Virgil are unknowns, Jota and Jones will have their best years ahead of them. There will be others in and out in that time but he's not walking into what Klopp did. Given the success of German managers in the CL I'd be shocked if they don't go that route, once it's not a drastic change in direction he will probably need just 2 signings to put his stamp on the side. 

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Some people seem to misunderstand the difference between what the club is 'worth,' what turnover is and what profit is.

 

I'll keep saying it, people need to produce evidence of financial misappropriation within the club by the owners because just saying repeatedly they think something's 'wrong' just makes them sound like a flat earther saying the world's flat, not a globe (or oblate spheroid for the pedants).

 

Facts, evidence and not rumour or gut feeling.

 

 

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Not saying there is misappropriation going on - more a question of asking are we just badly or not very well run financially...i.e. are our costs out of control, are we over paying staff, do we have a sound financial strategy that maximises profit and profit potential.....are we maximising commercial deals, are we doing the clever stuff that needs to be done....that kind of stuff.

 

And importantly are we maybe a bit too risk averse?

 

Maybe the answer is we are run as soundly and as well as we could be and we are with our financial strategy as good as we can be and we are maximising profits and profit potential and growth, we do have the best investment etc etc....but for me it just feels like if we were we'd have more financial muscle/we'd flex it more and it feels like we aren't as big or as strong as we might be.

 

It's just a feeling as i say and of course just an uninformed opinion on a very complex issue.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Kevin D said:

 

Van Dijk is the best CB in the world today and is neck and neck with De Bruyne as the best player in the country.

 

However, I still think we win the title in 19/20 and  the '19 Champions league with a Koulibaly, with a Varane, with a fucking boss top 5 cb in the world. 

 

I don't think that equivalence could be made managerially - I don't think any of the top 5 managers in the business could have come back with the same level of success in the exact circumstances, same players, same momentum, same infrastructure.

 

If Klopp had bought Koulibaly instead of Van Dijk, we'd still have won everything. If FSG had hired Guardiola/Wenger/Ferguson/Sacchi instead of Klopp, I don't think that's true.

We may have still won everything.

 

In the same way we may have not with Guardiola.

 

I don't see how you can make a convincing argument either way.

 

Koulibaly has won fuck all, and plays for a mid table Italian outfit at 30.

 

He may or may not have had the impact VVD had. We could have certainly bought him for less than 75mil and 6 months earlier than VVD.

 

The fact we chose not to may be in part to Klopp's belief that he wouldn't have had the same impact.

 

My point is, that in order to win trophies (plural) consistently, you need the right manager, with the right system for the players at the club, with more right signings than wrong ones, and with at least 3 or 4 top players at the top of their game through the spine of the team.

 

We didn't have all that last season. With Klopp still as manager. And we failed to even challenge for trophies.

 

When we did have all that, we won #6 and #19.

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5 minutes ago, m0e said:

We may have still won everything.

 

In the same way we may have not with Guardiola.

 

I don't see how you can make a convincing argument either way.

 

Koulibaly has won fuck all, and plays for a mid table Italian outfit at 30.

 

He may or may not have had the impact VVD had. We could have certainly bought him for less than 75mil and 6 months earlier than VVD.

 

The fact we chose not to may be in part to Klopp's belief that he wouldn't have had the same impact.

 

My point is, that in order to win trophies (plural) consistently, you need the right manager, with the right system for the players at the club, with more right signings than wrong ones, and with at least 3 or 4 top players at the top of their game through the spine of the team.

 

We didn't have all that last season. With Klopp still as manager. And we failed to even challenge for trophies.

 

When we did have all that, we won #6 and #19.

 

I don't think we're a millions mile away.

 

Bet all the money in my pocket that boys were having this exact conversation in Watson's then Lidellpool's prime in pubs.

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1 hour ago, dockers_strike said:

Some people seem to misunderstand the difference between what the club is 'worth,' what turnover is and what profit is.

 

I'll keep saying it, people need to produce evidence of financial misappropriation within the club by the owners because just saying repeatedly they think something's 'wrong' just makes them sound like a flat earther saying the world's flat, not a globe (or oblate spheroid for the pedants).

 

Facts, evidence and not rumour or gut feeling.

 

 

I don't think FSG are cooking the books at all, if they wanted to take money out of the club they could do so much more easily (and legally!) than by defrauding their own business.

 

I would like to see a more detailed breakdown of our wage bill though. It's astonishingly high. Are we paying Salah like £400k a week or something? The last Swiss Ramble thread on us had our total wage bill at £326m per season, second only to City. Where's all that going?

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23 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

I don't think FSG are cooking the books at all, if they wanted to take money out of the club they could do so much more easily (and legally!) than by defrauding their own business.

 

I would like to see a more detailed breakdown of our wage bill though. It's astonishingly high. Are we paying Salah like £400k a week or something? The last Swiss Ramble thread on us had our total wage bill at £326m per season, second only to City. Where's all that going?

I agree with your first bit. It's their company. They could take as much money out of it as they wanted, legally and just like the Glazers.

 

I personally think the breakdown of wages is a pipedream though. Why should the players or any individual have the amount they earn splattered all over the shop just to placate the people who claim our wage bill is inflated, ergo the players arent on big wedges?

 

Arent they allowed to have this stuff private (that's not a question directed at you)?

 

Many companies consider discussing how much you earn with colleagues to be a breach of confidential info. Yeah, in the case of mundane jobs we have or have had, it's a method for controlling wage inflation.

 

But, at the risk of repeating myself, I want to see hard evidence of financial misconduct within the club else I dont take on board what others say about an 'over inflated wage bill.'

 

Swiss Rambler does excellent analysise of club accounts but even he doesnt know how the club's performance related bonuses to the players is structured.

 

Some people still believed Wijnaldum was on the same 75 grand a week 5 years after he signed for us and despite being integral to the team that got to play in a Europa League Final, 2 Champions League Finals, winning one, finishing 2nd in the PL with a then club record points total, winning the PL the season after plus also winning the FIFA World Club Championship and UEFA Super Cup, the latter two likely having a far smaller bonus payment that the major achievements.

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3 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

I'll keep saying it, people need to produce evidence of financial misappropriation within the club by the owners because just saying repeatedly they think something's 'wrong' just makes them sound like a flat earther saying the world's flat, not a globe (or oblate spheroid for the pedants).

 

Facts, evidence and not rumour or gut feeling.

 

 


From CCTV footage of Linda Henry in the match day takings office. 
 

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1 hour ago, dockers_strike said:

I agree with your first bit. It's their company. They could take as much money out of it as they wanted, legally and just like the Glazers.

 

I personally think the breakdown of wages is a pipedream though. Why should the players or any individual have the amount they earn splattered all over the shop just to placate the people who claim our wage bill is inflated, ergo the players arent on big wedges?

 

Arent they allowed to have this stuff private (that's not a question directed at you)?

 

Many companies consider discussing how much you earn with colleagues to be a breach of confidential info. Yeah, in the case of mundane jobs we have or have had, it's a method for controlling wage inflation.

 

But, at the risk of repeating myself, I want to see hard evidence of financial misconduct within the club else I dont take on board what others say about an 'over inflated wage bill.'

 

Swiss Rambler does excellent analysise of club accounts but even he doesnt know how the club's performance related bonuses to the players is structured.

 

Some people still believed Wijnaldum was on the same 75 grand a week 5 years after he signed for us and despite being integral to the team that got to play in a Europa League Final, 2 Champions League Finals, winning one, finishing 2nd in the PL with a then club record points total, winning the PL the season after plus also winning the FIFA World Club Championship and UEFA Super Cup, the latter two likely having a far smaller bonus payment that the major achievements.

Wijnaldum was on the same basic wage dumbarse 

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5 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I think we very obviously pay top wages, the last player we lost because they wanted more money was Sterling.


We have absolute top players, and the only time they think of leaving is like Gini at the end of his contact when we let them go.


FSG should have paid for the stadium development out of their own cash though, rather than the club funding it, but they don’t.

 

It’s an interesting argument I reckon, whether they should go all in now while we’ve got Klopp, or save up the cash for when we have the next, presumably less good, manager?
Make hay while the sun shines and then go through a lull, or try to keep things even?

 

We have arguably not been as attractive a proposition on paper for players as we are now for decades.....we should in my book be trying to make as much hay as Klopp feels we need to, not as much as he'll 'accept' or as much as he is 'allowed' but as much as he sees is fit, and not a penny less.

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3 hours ago, joe_fishfish said:

I don't think FSG are cooking the books at all, if they wanted to take money out of the club they could do so much more easily (and legally!) than by defrauding their own business.

 

I would like to see a more detailed breakdown of our wage bill though. It's astonishingly high. Are we paying Salah like £400k a week or something? The last Swiss Ramble thread on us had our total wage bill at £326m per season, second only to City. Where's all that going?

With a wage bill of 326m and a turnover at 500m, it's pretty hard to understand how we're skint. The stadium extension costs about £10m a year iirc. What are the rest of the running costs from there? Maintain the stadium, run a training ground (I am not sure if that's been done on credit or not but it would seem surprising if it wasn't), run an office in town, run one in London - anything else? It's a pretty simple business model. We're doing something wrong somewhere. 

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4 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

With a wage bill of 326m and a turnover at 500m, it's pretty hard to understand how we're skint. The stadium extension costs about £10m a year iirc. What are the rest of the running costs from there? Maintain the stadium, run a training ground (I am not sure if that's been done on credit or not but it would seem surprising if it wasn't), run an office in town, run one in London - anything else? It's a pretty simple business model. We're doing something wrong somewhere. 

 

The accounts are available online. Download them, have a good look, and then tell us.

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8 minutes ago, Trumo said:

 

The accounts are available online. Download them, have a good look, and then tell us.

Accounts aren't worth shit. They tell you the picture that the business wants telling. It's not like they're a bank statement showing ins and outs. 

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5 hours ago, No2 said:

 That is at the bare minimum, Konate’s will be here whatever his success or lack of it, the recoveries of Gomez and Virgil are unknowns, Jota and Jones will have their best years ahead of them

Not if they go in on a one-on-one with that tiny-armed shithouse Pickford.

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2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Accounts aren't worth shit. They tell you the picture that the business wants telling. It's not like they're a bank statement showing ins and outs. 

 

So unless you see what you want to see, it all means shit. Got it.

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