Go fuck yourselves FSG

[BeefStroganoff]

13 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

No because 'broke' means being bankrupt and not able to pay bills. The club clearly can. What a responsible or self sufficient business doesnt do is earn a pound and spend a pound and a penny, especially when the financial shit is hitting the fan.

 

Id have thought even you would understand if Liverpool are finding it difficult to get a sleeve sponsor in the current climate, it's odds on because businesses see handing money to a football club right now isnt the best use of it's money rather than down to poor performance by the commercial department.

 

You see a bogeyman at every corner. Man, you're even now suggesting Swiss Rambler doesnt know what he's talking about. Yeah, whatever. Swiss Rambler is another Henry shill because Henry 'follows' him on twitter? You couldnt make the paranoia up.

 

You keep going on about the club's income. The club has expenditure. £42m pre tax sounds a lot of profit. It still wouldnt buy Werner never mind pay him 200 grand a week.

 

What 'cash' are you talking about where's it gone? What dont you get about, say, 500m in, 458m out equals 42m? For one season? Last season, I'll lay odds we didnt make £42m profit. How much profit do you think we'll make this season? How about a loss?

 

I'll ask you again see as you keep mentioning Villa outspending us. You be happy with Anfield being sold to the owners to fund player spend? Villa did it to write down debt so they could still buy players. Yes or no will do.

As Womble said accounts can be painted to depict anything they want, thats why the ramble doesn't mean crap to me. And the fact that Henry follows it? Paranoia or not, he doesn't follow hardly anyone on twitter so why the Swiss Ramble? Food for thought.

 

We made nearly 600 million in the last few season from the finishing positions ALONE.

 

CL runners up 75m 

https://www.90min.com/posts/6206580-uefa-reveal-which-clubs-earned-the-most-prize-money-in-the-2017-18-champions-league

CL winners 98.5mil 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/how-much-liverpool-earned-prize-16241807

PL Runners up 150m

PL Winners £175m

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8616659/Liverpool-receive-175m-payout-prize-money-TV-earnings-Premier-League-triumph.html

WCC Winners 4m

ESC Winners 4m

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1219994/Club-World-Cup-final-prize-money-Liverpool-Flamengo-how-much-win-earn

CL last 16 71m 

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2020/08/cost-of-early-champions-league-exit-revealed-but-reds-still-bank-over-70m/

 

So according to my maths thats £577.5 from prize winning that would under normal circumstances not be there.

 

Is this wrong? Because according to those articles thats what we have earned.

 

And thats before i add in partnerships, kit deals, player sales etc. So we have had far more money coming in than going out. We have spent 23 million in four windows. Thats two years.

 

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

How the hell do everton pass FFP.

[dockers_strike]

27 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

As Womble said accounts can be painted to depict anything they want, thats why the ramble doesn't mean crap to me. And the fact that Henry follows it? Paranoia or not, he doesn't follow hardly anyone on twitter so why the Swiss Ramble? Food for thought.

 

We made nearly 600 million in the last few season from the finishing positions ALONE.

 

CL runners up 75m 

https://www.90min.com/posts/6206580-uefa-reveal-which-clubs-earned-the-most-prize-money-in-the-2017-18-champions-league

CL winners 98.5mil 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/how-much-liverpool-earned-prize-16241807

PL Runners up 150m

PL Winners £175m

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8616659/Liverpool-receive-175m-payout-prize-money-TV-earnings-Premier-League-triumph.html

WCC Winners 4m

ESC Winners 4m

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1219994/Club-World-Cup-final-prize-money-Liverpool-Flamengo-how-much-win-earn

CL last 16 71m 

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2020/08/cost-of-early-champions-league-exit-revealed-but-reds-still-bank-over-70m/

 

So according to my maths thats £577.5 from prize winning that would under normal circumstances not be there.

 

Is this wrong? Because according to those articles thats what we have earned.

 

And thats before i add in partnerships, kit deals, player sales etc. So we have had far more money coming in than going out. We have spent 23 million in four windows. Thats two years.

 

 

No, despite what you and others believe, audited accounts cannot be painted to depict anything. Do you seriously think HMRC not to mention UEFA, the FA, Companies House and all the financial institutions either turn a blind eye to a supposed £600m black hole in Liverpool's accounts never mind other PL football clubs?

 

Please dont go on about your American companies either because Liverpool's accounts are covered by UK law.

 

Half your problem is you only see one side of the equation. You suggest we 'made' £600m. No, we didnt make that amount, it is not profit. It is gross ie before deductions of expenditure.

 

Even if we accept your fag packet calculations, where's the expenditure for the players purchases, player wages and bonuses, manager and backroom staff wages and bonuses, running of the club's in house tv? Dont forget all that income the club gets isnt tax free either. What about paying back loans on the Main Stand? What about Kirkby upgrade which the club funded and didnt use market loans?

 

You repeatedly ignore expenditure. That's your problem.

[dockers_strike]

34 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

How the hell do everton pass FFP.

First off, the PL's version of FFP is less stringent than UEFA's and even the EFL. They arent subject to UEFA's FFP because they havent competed in any UEFA competition recently.

 

Second, the football authorities have eased the FFP criteria due to the current situation so they like all clubs have more breathing space especially this year. They sail very close to the wind. They've had handouts for Finch Farm. Usmanov has given them £30m to have first option on any naming rights deal on 'the stadium.' Very clever bit of accounting but it is under investigation by the PL.

 

If a big offer for Richarlison comes in, they might be forced to sell to balance the books. They can always say the player forced the move. If Ancelotti doesnt get them up the league and in Europe, they could be on a sticky wicket.

 

They are one of a number of clubs who have made STHs pay in full plus they reckon they had just under 31,000 renewals and new take up.

[ManéMan]

7 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

Spot on correct. People go 'we make £500m, where's the money gone?' Erm, no, we dont 'make' £500m or whatever figure they want to use. The club's income may be that but it then has expenditure to pay out of it. In the last accounts, the profit was £42m pre tax. That wouldnt buy you a Werner.

 

Of course the club could spend £54m on Werner out of the, say £500m but that just means you either drive the club into debt.

 

I keep reading Villa being quoted as 'outspending us.' Didnt Villa and a few other clubs sell their ground to their owner for about £55m?

It's quite embarrassing that you think the entire fee for a player gets accounted for in that one account. It's not it gets spread across the duration of the contract.

[dockers_strike]

5 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

It's quite embarrassing that you think the entire fee for a player gets accounted for in that one account. It's not it gets spread across the duration of the contract.

It's quite embarassing you think buying a player from another club and paying for him and his wages are the same thing as amortisation in company accounts.

[TheHowieLama]

By definition his wages (outside of any signing fee) are amortized. Could be a bunch of different cash schedules in the transfer agreement (certainly any performance bonus' could be viewed as paid over time) but I agree the upfront cashflow needs would carry more weight.

[BeefStroganoff]

33 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

No, despite what you and others believe, audited accounts cannot be painted to depict anything. Do you seriously think HMRC not to mention UEFA, the FA, Companies House and all the financial institutions either turn a blind eye to a supposed £600m black hole in Liverpool's accounts never mind other PL football clubs?

 

Please dont go on about your American companies either because Liverpool's accounts are covered by UK law.

 

Half your problem is you only see one side of the equation. You suggest we 'made' £600m. No, we didnt make that amount, it is not profit. It is gross ie before deductions of expenditure.

 

Even if we accept your fag packet calculations, where's the expenditure for the players purchases, player wages and bonuses, manager and backroom staff wages and bonuses, running of the club's in house tv? Dont forget all that income the club gets isnt tax free either. What about paying back loans on the Main Stand? What about Kirkby upgrade which the club funded and didnt use market loans?

 

You repeatedly ignore expenditure. That's your problem.

Fag packet says you.

 

That expenditure would be covered by other means surely, not prize money? Because as i said if we are relying on prize money to cover our costs its unsustainable.

 

We still had gate receipts up until march

We still had income from sponsrships

We still had income from LFC TV

We still had money from broadcast rights

We still had merchandise sales in the shops

We still had merchandise sales online

 

Anyway this is a waste of time, round and round we go. apparently winning stuff (and the financials that come with it) don't really make much of a difference anyway so we might as well play for fourth if we can't take any advantage.

[dockers_strike]

5 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

Fag packet says you.

 

That expenditure would be covered by other means surely, not prize money? Because as i said if we are relying on prize money to cover our costs its unsustainable.

 

We still had gate receipts up until march

We still had income from sponsrships

We still had income from LFC TV

We still had money from broadcast rights

 

Anyway this is a waste of time, round and round we go. apparently winning stuff (and the financials that come with it) don't really make much of a difference anyway so we might as well play for fourth if we can't take any advantage.

The club turnover in the year 2018 - 19, what you seem to call what we 'make' was £533m. Expenses in the same period were £485m.

 

Oh sorry, you say the accounts can be painted to depict anything and instead you wish to believe we had over £577m in 'prize money' that is unaccounted for. Knock yourself out.

[an tha]

2 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

Would not surprise me when BMD falls through that everton become the first established PL club to sell woodison to moshiri in a bid to write down their overall debt position.

Well that will get them a family bucket from nabzys and a 4 pack of stella

[Moo]

Is there a wages breakdown anywhere?  Someone pointed out last week that the wages column seems higher than you might expect, but how does that compare to other clubs accounts?

[an tha]

3 minutes ago, Moo said:

Is there a wages breakdown anywhere?  Someone pointed out last week that the wages column seems higher than you might expect, but how does that compare to other clubs accounts?

Our wage to turnover ratio is broadly similar to our rivals at 58%

 

 

Some detail here:

 

https://theathletic.co.uk/1729003/2020/04/08/premier-league-finances-accounts-newcastle-palace/

 

3rd biggest total turnover in league.

 

 

[dockers_strike]

1 hour ago, Moo said:

Is there a wages breakdown anywhere?  Someone pointed out last week that the wages column seems higher than you might expect, but how does that compare to other clubs accounts?

 

Clubs dont declare in their published accounts how much individual players earn for obvious reasons. The wages are included under 'Administrative expenses.' This includes amortisation of player registrations, depreciation of fixed assets etc.

 

I think you'd have to get hold of the more detailed accounts to show a more targeted breakdown. The club doesnt have to release these to the public as per general companies House practices.

 

Not sure how anyone can draw any conclusion of wages being higher than expected. In 2019, the club has 853 people on the book of which 178 were manager, coaching staff and players. From the accounts these seem to include full and part time including scouts and LFC Ladies. These accounted for some £276m plus social security and pension costs.

 

Directors drew just under £3m in 2019 with one individual getting just under £1.8m

 

Obviously, accounts tend to be a bit out of date by the time they are published as they have upto 9 months after the company year end to release them.

[VladimirIlyich]

9 hours ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

I just want to win. The rest is bollocks to me, to be honest. The thing is, we can't pretend that it's FM2012 and it's as easy as selling a player for 100m and spending 100m on another player. 

It pisses me off that we have the kind of owners we do now,if we got any of the type I previously mentioned then the professional game would mean little more than a passing interest to me.

[Scott_M]

More and more this thread is supporters who read informed judgements made by reputable publications against supporters who read headlines & make rash conclusions based on option they pass off as fact.

 

Making judgements based on reputable publications make you crazy. Making headlines & rash conclusions makes you sane.

[Anubis]

[FrenchEyeGlass]

22 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

No, despite what you and others believe, audited accounts cannot be painted to depict anything. Do you seriously think HMRC not to mention UEFA, the FA, Companies House and all the financial institutions either turn a blind eye to a supposed £600m black hole in Liverpool's accounts never mind other PL football clubs?

 

 

Sigh, for the last time, YES THEY FUCKING CAN YOU STUPID FUCKING CUNT. I literally fucking work in valuation and corporate strategy for a global investment bank, I assure you I have much more knowledge of audited accounts then you will ever have (unless you have a similar job) and as I've said ad nauseam, it would actually be awful business practice for LFC not to employ creative accounting. It's not illegal, or even unethical, its the fucking standard industry practice (and I can imagine especially so for football clubs in light of FFP), so stop fucking talking about stuff you have absolutely zero expertise in.

 

Edit: The funniest thing about what I've quoted above is that you think UEFA, the FA or Companies House (wtf?) have any kind of financial jurisdiction over the accounting practices of any institution. Please, genuinely, stop fucking talking about stuff you obviously know nothing about. 

[dockers_strike]

2 hours ago, FrenchEyeGlass said:

 

Sigh, for the last time, YES THEY FUCKING CAN YOU STUPID FUCKING CUNT. I literally fucking work in valuation and corporate strategy for a global investment bank, I assure you I have much more knowledge of audited accounts then you will ever have (unless you have a similar job) and as I've said ad nauseam, it would actually be awful business practice for LFC not to employ creative accounting. It's not illegal, or even unethical, its the fucking standard industry practice (and I can imagine especially so for football clubs in light of FFP), so stop fucking talking about stuff you have absolutely zero expertise in.

 

Edit: The funniest thing about what I've quoted above is that you think UEFA, the FA or Companies House (wtf?) have any kind of financial jurisdiction over the accounting practices of any institution. Please, genuinely, stop fucking talking about stuff you obviously know nothing about. 

You're a fucking eejit. Yes, of course a tin pot company can take the risk of just putting any old shit in their accounts and get away with it.

 

It's not illegal? Fucking hell, I cannot speak for the US where you supposedly claim to be situated but I can assure you falsifying accounts in the UK most certainly is. Stop chatting your utter shit.

 

Here, we are talking about a football club at the top of the professional game that along with all the others, is closely regulated. In case you didnt notice, manchester city have just been 'investigated' for dodgey money transaction. They might have got off with it but it didnt stop them being investigated.

 

Clowns like you think there are these £500m+ blackholes in clubs accounts that no one notices. Er, hello, you're not going to be able to hide that kind of money without HMRC, the Premier League, FA and UEFA etc all getting suspicious.

 

Seriously, you need to stop shoving your head up your arse and claiming the whole world is friggin their accounts.

 

[FrenchEyeGlass]

14 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

You're a fucking eejit. Yes, of course a tin pot company can take the risk of just putting any old shit in their accounts and get away with it.

 

It's not illegal? Fucking hell, I cannot speak for the US where you supposedly claim to be situated but I can assure you falsifying accounts in the UK most certainly is. Stop chatting your utter shit.

 

Here, we are talking about a football club at the top of the professional game that along with all the others, is closely regulated. In case you didnt notice, manchester city have just been 'investigated' for dodgey money transaction. They might have got off with it but it didnt stop them being investigated.

 

Clowns like you think there are these £500m+ blackholes in clubs accounts that no one notices. Er, hello, you're not going to be able to hide that kind of money without HMRC, the Premier League, FA and UEFA etc all getting suspicious.

 

Seriously, you need to stop shoving your head up your arse and claiming the whole world is friggin their accounts.

 

Hhahahahahahaha, I've worked on valuation, M&A and strategic partnerships for institutions 5-100 times the size of LFC, you fucking derp. LFC is a massive football club but a fairly small business in the context of global markets. You have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. I'll leave it there, I need not get into a cock measuring contest with a creampie eating cuckold on the internet.

 

FYI, "claim to be situated", I'm from the UK but live in NYC and have done for years:

 

 

 

[dockers_strike]

18 minutes ago, FrenchEyeGlass said:

 

Hhahahahahahaha, I've worked on valuation, M&A and strategic partnerships for institutions 5-100 times the size of LFC, you fucking derp. LFC is a massive football club but a fairly small business in the context of global markets. You have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. I'll leave it there, I need not get into a cock measuring contest with a creampie eating cuckold on the internet.

 

FYI, "claim to be situated", I'm from the UK but live in NYC and have done for years:

 

 

 

I'll say it again, stop spouting your unfounded bullshit and conspiracy theories. Either put up the evidence or shut up. Obtain a copy of Liverpool's detailed accounts and prove the financial irregularity, black hole, diversion of money etc.

 

Im not an accountant but I know one who is. He's actually Jimmy Case's cousin. He tells me people like you are just spouting 'bullshit.'

 

[3 Stacks]

"Creampie eating cuckold". Tremendous visual.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

12 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

I'll say it again, stop spouting your unfounded bullshit and conspiracy theories. Either put up the evidence or shut up. Obtain a copy of Liverpool's detailed accounts and prove the financial irregularity, black hole, diversion of money etc.

 

Im not an accountant but I know one who is. He's actually Jimmy Case's cousin. He tells me people like you are just spouting 'bullshit.'

 

 

Im not making any of these claims though, am I? Im saying that its a falsehood to state that the accounts prove, in black and white, the profitability and economic health of the club. And that's its a truism that every institution worth its salt (especially privately held institutions) will downplay both of those things drastically (within the guardrails of ethical fiscal practice) and as a result, the accounts are as close to being useless to the outside reader as humanly possible.

 

Nobody has 'detailed accounts' and I don't need that to know what I know about finance. It has nothing to do with Liverpool and everything to do with me just frankly knowing more than you, so show some humility you dumb fuck.

 

I won't bother replying to you again because you're either willfully ignorant or naive to the realities of capitalism. Amazon pay fuck all tax to HMRC in the UK, is this because they make no profit? Go and educate before you give it the big bollocks in here you thick cunt.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

10 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

"Creampie eating cuckold". Tremendous visual.

 

Haha...I really need to relax with the profanities so I'm trying to be creative with my put downs on here 

[BeefStroganoff]

11 minutes ago, FrenchEyeGlass said:

 

Im not making any of these claims though, am I? Im saying that its a falsehood to state that the accounts prove, in black and white, the profitability and economic health of the club. And that's its a truism that every institution worth its salt (especially privately held institutions) will downplay both of those things drastically (within the guardrails of ethical fiscal practice) and as a result, the accounts are as close to being useless to the outside reader as humanly possible.

 

Nobody has 'detailed accounts' and I don't need that to know what I know about finance. It has nothing to do with Liverpool and everything to do with me just frankly knowing more than you, so show some humility you dumb fuck.

 

I won't bother replying to you again because you're either willfully ignorant or naive to the realities of capitalism. Amazon pay fuck all tax to HMRC in the UK, is this because they make no profit? Go and educate before you give it the big bollocks in here you thick cunt.

In Dockers world everyone is honest, virtuous and truthful. Unfortunately thats not this planet.

[dockers_strike]

17 minutes ago, FrenchEyeGlass said:

 

Im not making any of these claims though, am I? Im saying that its a falsehood to state that the accounts prove, in black and white, the profitability and economic health of the club. And that's its a truism that every institution worth its salt (especially privately held institutions) will downplay both of those things drastically (within the guardrails of ethical fiscal practice) and as a result, the accounts are as close to being useless to the outside reader as humanly possible.

 

Nobody has 'detailed accounts' and I don't need that to know what I know about finance. It has nothing to do with Liverpool and everything to do with me just frankly knowing more than you, so show some humility you dumb fuck.

 

I won't bother replying to you again because you're either willfully ignorant or naive to the realities of capitalism. Amazon pay fuck all tax to HMRC in the UK, is this because they make no profit? Go and educate before you give it the big bollocks in here you thick cunt.

Haha, more back stroke than Michael Phelps. Yes, amazon pay fuck all UK tax because they divert sales through other countries such as Ireland and Luxumberg and take advantage of tax laws in other countries. It's called income shifting. It's out in the open you clown.

 

People like you claim Liverpool have a massive black hole in their accounts. Are you now suggesting Liverpool's income far exceeds what is in the accounts like Amazon or just that there's a black hole that the money disappears into so makes it's way to John Henry's yacht fund?

 

Im saying prove it with actual documented, verified facts and examples instead of just shouting your usual repetitive bollocks and inuendos and people might start listening to you, not that many do anyway from what Ive read.

 

What Im saying is, the accounts are audited and accepted by all the relevant authorities. Im talking the detailed accounts that go down to a far lower level than the abbreviated published ones. get hold of a detailed copy of accounts from Companies House, disect them and let us know.

 

Alternatively and, if you dont want to do that, then get onto HMRC, or UEFA or Companies House etc, tell them you've worked on valuations and strategic partnerships for multi billion pound companies but you think Liverpool FC's owners are hoodwinking them all, understating the club's income, diverting untold sums of money out of the UK and under paying company tax. If you can back it all up with emails, Im sure at least UEFA would like to talk with you.