Go fuck yourselves FSG

[Scott_M]

4 hours ago, HBenn said:

I am just saying that another defensive midfielder would allow us to play a more expansive game again. I also think our success in 2022 was very reliant on Fabinho and Thiago and that is concerning because Thiago won't stay fit.

We need to improve from an impressive position to beat City because they are phenomenal. This Liverpool team would have won the league in 4 of the last 5 seasons without them and these issues wouldn't be worth concerning ourselves with because it wouldn't matter.

But due to City we have to improve. I trust Klopp and Lijnders to maximise what we have. He is the best manager in my lifetime. I just don't think the priority to improve was a replacement for Mo. Not that that matters now. Well done Mike Gordon!!!!

 

 

I think we all agree we’d like another midfielder, so I don’t get the point your making. 
 

We have a full season of Diaz. It’s clearly a shame we’ve lost Mane, we’ve broken a club record replacing him. Who knows how  Carvalho will fit in or what improvements Elliott or Jones will make? 
 

City are clearly a great side. Although not regulars, Fernandinho, Jesus & Sterling  has been various degrees of very good players for them. I’m unconvinced by Phillips and Haaland still has to replace c.30 goals they are losing.

 

I’m not saying we’ll blow them away or they’ll capitulate etc, I’m saying despite our own personal preferences what happens with the squad, I’m sure Klopp & team have more than adequate plans to keep us up there.

[Scott_M]

4 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Barrington Womble still clinging on to the stadium thingy.

We’re still a stepping stone, not a finishing club blah blah blah.

 

Obviously Alisson, VVD, Fabinho, Salah etc having the best years of their careers with us, ie the points that Alonso, Mascherano, Suarez, Sterling etc all left, is irrelevant. 

[HBenn]

18 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

I think we all agree we’d like another midfielder, so I don’t get the point your making. 
 

We have a full season of Diaz. It’s clearly a shame we’ve lost Mane, we’ve broken a club record replacing him. Who knows how  Carvalho will fit in or what improvements Elliott or Jones will make? 
 

City are clearly a great side. Although not regulars, Fernandinho, Jesus & Sterling  has been various degrees of very good players for them. I’m unconvinced by Phillips and Haaland still has to replace c.30 goals they are losing.

 

I’m not saying we’ll blow them away or they’ll capitulate etc, I’m saying despite our own personal preferences what happens with the squad, I’m sure Klopp & team have more than adequate plans to keep us up there.

I think we will be up there but I don't think we have done enough (yet) for City to be too concerned that we will overtake them.

I think the injury issues, lack of quality defensive midfielders and age of our midfielders will undermine us over the course of the season.

But there is quite a bit of time left yet for those issues to be addressed. Whether Jürgen comes up with something brilliant on the training ground or we bring in that player in the market.

[aRdja]

5 hours ago, HBenn said:

Of course we are going to concede goals, that is obvious, but you are looking at things far too simplistically.

We (and Mo) were outscoring City for fun until Jan and then we had to change our tactic because our midfield didn't have the defensive skills to allow us to play that way. We were giving up leading positions. The change of tactics/personnel to 3 more defensively minded players partly addressed the defensive issues.

However, the attacking midfielders barely got a look in after Christmas and funnily enough without the same triangle on the right, Mo also looked a shadow of himself.

If we had 2 solid defensive midfielders we could play a very attacking midfielder like we were early in the season.

Until we have 2 Jürgen really trusts we won't do that!

However you think we should go to FSG and ask them to allow us to spend now to replace a player that will be here for another year because...we will lose goals when he leaves???

Or maybe we could buy a quality midfielder that can effectively cover up the spaces, which in turn allows us to play a more attacking midfielder without leaving spaces and allow Mo to get back to his free scoring best for a season. Then address his replacement if and when he leaves.

Our form in the second half of the season was brilliant, we didn’t score enough goals because Mo lost form, not because of this supposed tactic change. The games we dropped points in we dominated but couldnt score goals. Not sure how a DM alongside Fabinho and Thiago would’ve helped. Mo lost form likely because he played way too many games, not because we stopped playing Harvey Elliott. Say you bring in a defensive midfielder, let’s say Kante to play an attacking midfielder in, either Elliott or Carvalho, who would you drop out of Fabinho and Thiago? Would that form a better midfield than Fabinho, Thiago +1? Unlikely.

[TheHowieLama]

What change in tactic in January?

 

Henderson missed three league games all year - two of them before January.

He played in the West Ham game, Leicester and the draws to Chelsea and the second Tottenham game.

 

The triangle on the right?? It was like two matches. Literally.

[HBenn]

22 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Our form in the second half of the season was brilliant, we didn’t score enough goals because Mo lost form, not because of this supposed tactic change. The games we dropped points in we dominated but couldnt score goals. Not sure how a DM alongside Fabinho and Thiago would’ve helped. Mo lost form likely because he played way too many games, not because we stopped playing Harvey Elliott. Say you bring in a defensive midfielder, let’s say Kante to play an attacking midfielder in, either Elliott or Carvalho, who would you drop out of Fabinho and Thiago? Would that form a better midfield than Fabinho, Thiago +1? Unlikely.

You just ignore points answering points that don't fit  your agenda don't you?

In the first half of the season, when Thiago was injured, we dropped points from being 2-0 ahead, nothing to do with missing chances. All about a lack of control. 

The games in the 2nd half of the season without Thiago we looked vulnerable. Thiago's fitness is massive to us and over the course of a season he will miss plenty of games unfortunately.

So to your answer your question that player, if he can defend and attack could play alongside them or for the 10-15 games Thiago will be out he could take his place and for the games when Fabinho or Thiago need resting could play in their place

In the biggest games, he could play alongside Fabinho with Thiago having the freer role and close up the gaps that are there

now even when Thiago and Fabinho play and if that allows us to get over the lines in the games against the top 4 that maybe the difference between winning the league/CL or not.

Take the Spurs game, Spurs let us have the ball and targeted the area in between the lines to disrupt our rhythm and open us up and the plan gave them confidence, destabilised us and eventually led to their goal. 

 

 

[HBenn]

32 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

What change in tactic in January?

 

Henderson missed three league games all year - two of them before January.

He played in the West Ham game, Leicester and the draws to Chelsea and the second Tottenham game.

 

The triangle on the right?? It was like two matches. Literally.

Klopp talked about them getting together in early Jan and changing things. 

[aRdja]

So your plan is for this defensive midfielder will play mostly when Thiago, one of our best players, is out or when we rest him. When all three midfielders are available, we will bench Hendo and move Thiago to a freer role, like what, a number 10? Why move him from his best position? He was the best on ground when Bayern won the CL playing in a midfield two with Kimmich, he doesn’t need a freer role, whatever that is.

 

Below are the stats against Spurs, a 4th placed team. Doesn’t exactly scream DM deficient does it? Now compare the distribution of goals between ours and City, their midfield contributed 37 goals in the league last season compared to our 12 goals. Now that we’ve extended Salah’s contract I propose we we focus on addressing  that issue next.

[aRdja]

59 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

What change in tactic in January?

 

Henderson missed three league games all year - two of them before January.

He played in the West Ham game, Leicester and the draws to Chelsea and the second Tottenham game.

 

The triangle on the right?? It was like two matches. Literally.

Yeah not convinced about this change in tactic. We still saw Trent going narrow, and Hendo/Mo overlapping post January.

[TD_LFC]

34 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Now compare the distribution of goals between ours and City, their midfield contributed 37 goals in the league last season compared to our 12 goals. Now that we’ve extended Salah’s contract I propose we we focus on addressing  that issue next.

You assume that's a personnel issue (or an issue at all) rather than the design of the respective systems.

 

City play with two attack minded 8's and the front three to create their attacking 5 and use their full backs to make up the numbers alongside Rhodri in the 'defensive' 5, by contrast, we use our fullbacks alongside the front three to create our attacking 5 and use our three midfielders in the defensive 5.

 

Here's Klopp's answer to a question about goals from midfield by James Pearce last summer

 

Quote

"to score more goals from midfield you have to create the situations for that, so it's not that you can just say we need goals, a midfielder who plays for us in the way we play it's not that easy that he's constantly in goal scoring situations, they have to do different jobs, we have a specific set up of our team you see our fullbacks are usually in attacking moments, you see who's in the box. We could have scored more goals definitely yes but it's not about a different player it's about different positioning..."

 

The emphasise in our midfield is on breaking up play and, in possesion, 'breaking lines', 'progressive carries' and 'pre-assists', that might change going forward but it's the reason comparing our midfielders with Cities is unfair up to now.

[aRdja]

59 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

You assume that's a personnel issue (or an issue at all) rather than the design of the respective systems.

 

City play with two attack minded 8's and the front three to create their attacking 5 and use their full backs to make up the numbers alongside Rhodri in the 'defensive' 5, by contrast, we use our fullbacks alongside the front three to create our attacking 5 and use our three midfielders in the defensive 5.

 

Here's Klopp's answer to a question about goals from midfield by James Pearce last summer

 

 

The emphasise in our midfield is on breaking up play and, in possesion, 'breaking lines', 'progressive carries' and 'pre-assists', that might change going forward but it's the reason comparing our midfielders with Cities is unfair up to now.

We saw last year Klopp wanted one of the midfielders to join in attack, often that player was Hendo with Trent tucking in. Appreciate the different focus but 25 goals is a huge variance. Closing that gap would go a lot further than adding another defensive midfielder to ‘free up’ Thiago, whatever that means 

[TD_LFC]

You seem to be hung up on the term defensive midfielder and see it as a player who is just sitting back with Fabinho and Thiago when that's not the case.

[HBenn]

9 hours ago, aRdja said:

So your plan is for this defensive midfielder will play mostly when Thiago, one of our best players, is out or when we rest him. When all three midfielders are available, we will bench Hendo and move Thiago to a freer role, like what, a number 10? Why move him from his best position? He was the best on ground when Bayern won the CL playing in a midfield two with Kimmich, he doesn’t need a freer role, whatever that is.

 

Below are the stats against Spurs, a 4th placed team. Doesn’t exactly scream DM deficient does it? Now compare the distribution of goals between ours and City, their midfield contributed 37 goals in the league last season compared to our 12 goals. Now that we’ve extended Salah’s contract I propose we we focus on addressing  that issue next.

I am saying he would play every week and that if we have the luxury of Thiago being fit he would play in a midfield 3 with him. Clearly, on the basis he plays every week, he would have the quality to play any of the midfield 3 positions. That would allow Thiago to go wherever he wanted while having no defensive responsibilities.

Yeah, we had lots of the ball against Spurs and Spurs continually broke the pressure by playing the ball into Kane and Son in the space in between the lines who then caused us problems moving forward and in behind. It broke our pressure and destabilised us. It was a clear tactic and gave them confidence. As the game went on we became more disjointed and they more confident. Son and Kane continually dropped into the space between the lines and it led to their goal. We then scored a deflected goal.

 

If you don't have a weak spot there then they cannot get out and eventually the pressure would have told and we would have probably won comfortably.  

 

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

12 hours ago, aRdja said:

 25 goals is a huge variance. Closing that gap would go a lot further than adding another defensive midfielder to ‘free up’ Thiago, whatever that means 

TBF they only scored a few more than us as a team over the season. We had a record amount of goalscorers in the squad.

[TheHowieLama]

14 hours ago, HBenn said:

Klopp talked about them getting together in early Jan and changing things. 

You should just post the link to that.

[the chimp]

I remember reading the same @Howie. Not sure where mate - and I've been trying to find it with no luck unfortunately - but I do definitely remember there being a change in approach mentioned.

[aRdja]

4 hours ago, HBenn said:

I am saying he would play every week and that if we have the luxury of Thiago being fit he would play in a midfield 3 with him. Clearly, on the basis he plays every week, he would have the quality to play any of the midfield 3 positions. That would allow Thiago to go wherever he wanted while having no defensive responsibilities.

Yeah, we had lots of the ball against Spurs and Spurs continually broke the pressure by playing the ball into Kane and Son in the space in between the lines who then caused us problems moving forward and in behind. It broke our pressure and destabilised us. It was a clear tactic and gave them confidence. As the game went on we became more disjointed and they more confident. Son and Kane continually dropped into the space between the lines and it led to their goal. We then scored a deflected goal.

 

If you don't have a weak spot there then they cannot get out and eventually the pressure would have told and we would have probably won comfortably.  

 

So now he’s a defensive midfielder who’s able to play any of the three midfield positions? Who is this mythical player? Didn’t you say earlier you wanted a defensive midfielder in because it’d allow us to fit a more attacking midfielder in, like Harvey Elliott in or is that not the plan anymore? Who would you drop out?
 

Why would you want to move Thiago from his best position? He’s a CM, why would you his take defensive responsibilities away, as he’s quite clearly more than capable at it; Bayern literally won everything with him playing in a two man midfield behind Thomas Muller and Lewandowski, and he won MOTM in the CL final.
 

There’s very little point in us continuing to discuss the Spurs game. You’re never going to be able to convince me that what we needed to win that game was a defensive midfielder. It was pretty obvious what we needed to do was to score the first goal, then they would’ve had to throw their game plan out of the window. The reason the set up shop like that was they knew if we went toe to toe with us we would’ve destroyed them. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

The chuckle brothers discuss tactics and move a ladder. To me, me me me……

[joe_fishfish]

36 minutes ago, aRdja said:

So now he’s a defensive midfielder who’s able to play any of the three midfield positions? Who is this mythical player? Didn’t you say earlier you wanted a defensive midfielder in because it’d allow us to fit a more attacking midfielder in, like Harvey Elliott in or is that not the plan anymore? Who would you drop out?
 

Why would you want to move Thiago from his best position? He’s a CM, why would you his take defensive responsibilities away, as he’s quite clearly more than capable at it; Bayern literally won everything with him playing in a two man midfield behind Thomas Muller and Lewandowski, and he won MOTM in the CL final.
 

There’s very little point in us continuing to discuss the Spurs game. You’re never going to be able to convince me that what we needed to win that game was a defensive midfielder. It was pretty obvious what we needed to do was to score the first goal, then they would’ve had to throw their game plan out of the window. The reason the set up shop like that was they knew if we went toe to toe with us we would’ve destroyed them. 

Tchouameni

[aRdja]

Just now, joe_fishfish said:

Tchouameni

He looked really average going forward from his YouTube videos. @3 Stacks who watched Ligue 1 confirmed he’s not great offensively if I recall correctly. Looks to me like he’d been bought as a rotation option for Fabinho, to eventually replace him in a few years time. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

100m rotation option. You do live in a wonderous world. 

[aRdja]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

100m rotation option. You do live in a wonderous world. 

We didn’t want him at 100m though.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, aRdja said:

We didn’t want him at 100m though.

How do you know that? 

[aRdja]

Just now, Numero Veinticinco said:

How do you know that? 

@Barrington Womble posted something in another thread saying we didn’t even put in a bid.

[Numero Veinticinco]

26 minutes ago, aRdja said:

@Barrington Womble posted something in another thread saying we didn’t even put in a bid.

Yeah, that's how it works. 

 

Nevermind. Yeah, we wanted him for backup to Fabinho. You got it.