Go fuck yourselves FSG

[Ranxerox]

2 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

 

 

Jesus christ thats funny

[BeefStroganoff]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

 

In a season with no supporters, its supporters like me who are the problem. Absolute Classic. 

 

People who endorse them? I like to think I call it as I see it. Read the hyperlink in my auto signature for proof. I wasn't happy about last week, but I wasn't somebody who was super outraged either. The whole ESL was a sham, from every single club. Unfortunately we were one of them. I didn't like the concept of a closed shop, but I also have no love for UEFA picking finals in the most difficult places imaginable, giving shit allocations, charging extortionate prices, costing supporters fortunes and treating supporters like shit. I fully think something needs to change in football, the ESL just wasn't it.

 

I would like you to post this mythical defence of Origi from me please, because I can assure you it's never happened. I was happy for him to stay after Madrid but he's contributed nothing since. I was clear in the summer I'd contribute to his statue but it's time to go and I still feel that way. But hey, continue telling porky pies long enough and it becomes the truth, right?

 

The only interaction I've had with you today is over the protest. So I'll ask again, seeing the eyes of the world were on the ESL clubs at the weekend and you had an opportunity to go and protest about FSG and have your message seen and heard, did you do it? Yes or no.

 

If yes, regardless of my feelings on the matter, fair play to you for backing up words with actions.

 

If no (which I strongly suggest is the answer), on a forum where posters have been to David Moores' house and the Court case v Hick & Gillett, I think you and your fellow Anti-FSGers need to wind your neck in because you had a chance to stand up for what you believe and did fuck all.

I'm sure they will simply sell up as soon as I turn up at the ground.

 

Back in the real world, my post was on point, you really are just happy for this club to toddle along arnt you? It doesn't seem to bother you that we've gone from such a position of strength to an almost certain position of weakness. And thats on the owners because its only been through Jurgen we are where we are and now that he can't continue to carry the weight, things have crumbled.

 

Oh as for Origi, you were defending him to the hilt when many on here were suggesting he should be sold after Madrid and that he's not good enough, and as usual it was ultimately proved right (again).

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 hours ago, Daisy said:

It is not a criminal conviction to keep your detailed wage list internal

Hahahah. Okay. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Also, @Scott_M, as it's your fault that we've had a shit season, do you mind packing it in so we can have a good season next season. Just go back to whatever you were doing last season. 

[Scott_M]

27 minutes ago, BeefStroganoff said:

I'm sure they will simply sell up as soon as I turn up at the ground.

 

Back in the real world, my post was on point, you really are just happy for this club to toddle along arnt you? It doesn't seem to bother you that we've gone from such a position of strength to an almost certain position of weakness. And thats on the owners because its only been through Jurgen we are where we are and now that he can't continue to carry the weight, things have crumbled.

 

Oh as for Origi, you were defending him to the hilt when many on here were suggesting he should be sold after Madrid and that he's not good enough, and as usual it was ultimately proved right (again).

So, that’s a no, you didn’t go and protest. Something you and other posters feel so passionately about, had the opportunity in front of the world to go and get your point across and you, and other posters, didn’t do it?

 

All mouth, no balls.

 

As mentioned, some forumites here have been to David Moore’s house, been to G&H court stuff, been on the anti G&H marches, had sit in protests after games, emailed investment bankers when it looks like G&H could refinance the deal, left the ground early on ticket prices, sent online messages about the furlough & have done  everything in their power to save or improve the club. 
 

I can include myself in some of those. What have you done?
 

You and others had the opportunity and did nothing last Saturday.
 

Unfortunately, the club has been hit by COVID19. I’m not an expert in the accounts but it all seems straightforward enough to me. Income down, expenditure up. If you look at the graph I put earlier on how it’s impacted each club, you’ll see we’re not the only ones effected. 
 

If you know the figures better than others on the forum, kindly post what you know and enlighten us with your knowledge. Or if the club could have done something differently in the past 15 months, let us all know.

FYI, the club has already secured investment which looks to cover all this via Redball. Klopp has commented on it. I have no idea who this pans out, but plans look to be in place.

 

Finally, on Origi, he scored a lot of important goals for us that season. I was happy to give him a chance. So was Klopp. Maybe let Jurgen know your concerns next time and suggest we only sign players and offer contact extensions via a poll on the forum.

[Scott_M]

9 minutes ago, Numero said:

Also, @Scott_M, as it's your fault that we've had a shit season, do you mind packing it in so we can have a good season next season. Just go back to whatever you were doing last season. 

Errr yeah, sorry about that. I take full responsibility - nothing to do about that bat & pangolin or Sky wanting TV money back or Adrian cocking up in the CL or building a new training ground or agreeing players bonuses...

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

3 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

Errr yeah, sorry about that. I take full responsibility. 

 

[Barrington Womble]

5 hours ago, No2 said:

The most accurate piece of information we have was Bobby's leaked wages. It was from 2017, he was making 70k per week plus 31k for an assist and 75k for a goal. It wouldn’t take a huge jump to expect he is on double that since his last contract. There will be win bonuses and trophy bonuses too. Its really not hard to imagine Mo was earning 500k most weeks for the last 2 years.

 

It's all speculation but the truth will be revealed next year when only Mo is picking up any type of bonus. I'd expect the wage bill to be at least 100m less.

The last set of accounts (as in a year ago rather than this set), we recorded wages over 300m and that didn't include the champions League win because the final occurred after the accounting period. So why were the wages so high then? We did resign loads of players though and paid a fucking fortune in agents fees, which is why I think they lump agent fees in. 

 

With the wages, I understood all 1st contracts were incentivised like firmino's you mention. The idea being if you make it, you then get rewarded on the basic wage on your next contract. So when he moved off that contract you mentioned to his "new one" (which was probably signed 2 years ago now), he got something like 180k per week, but the bonuses were slashed. I'm sure Werner talked of that concept very early in his time here. What they didn't want to do is the trap we'd maybe fallen into before where we signed people on extreme wages and they never worked and never settled (not an unreasonable position in a majority of cases). Personally, I think that's why the thiago signing was such a surprise, because they've clearly had to give him the sort of deal the other senior players are on.

 

We'll never know the exactly details (well unless wiki leaks gets on the case), but it would be surprising if most of our squad earned double their reported salary.  

[Barrington Womble]

4 hours ago, aRdja said:

We’re talking about to carrying back trading losses here aren’t we? So this page is probably more relevant IMO.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/company-taxation-manual/ctm04510

 

Losses may only be carried back against profits of a preceding accounting period if the company was carrying on the trade (in which the loss was incurred) at some time in that accounting period.

 

The preceding period is usually the twelve months preceding the accounting period in which the loss is incurred. A temporary extension to this rule was introduced by FA09/S23. This extended the loss carry back to 3 years for accounting periods ending between 24 November 2008 and 23 November 2010. After carry back to the preceding year, a maximun of £50,000 of unused losses was available for carry back to the previous two years.

They’ve increased it again for Covid, but the net impact is only additional £800k max.

 

https://home.kpmg/uk/en/home/insights/2021/03/tmd-temporary-extension-to-carry-back-of-trading-losses.html

 

Sorry, I've no time to have a proper read and search... Well.to be honest no inclination today as I've only just knocked off work and half my day was on bullshit fucking corporation tax, vat and bills, so I don't need the busman's holiday! I'll take a read tomorrow. 

[No2]

12 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The last set of accounts (as in a year ago rather than this set), we recorded wages over 300m and that didn't include the champions League win because the final occurred after the accounting period. So why were the wages so high then? We did resign loads of players though and paid a fucking fortune in agents fees, which is why I think they lump agent fees in. 

 

With the wages, I understood all 1st contracts were incentivised like firmino's you mention. The idea being if you make it, you then get rewarded on the basic wage on your next contract. So when he moved off that contract you mentioned to his "new one" (which was probably signed 2 years ago now), he got something like 180k per week, but the bonuses were slashed. I'm sure Werner talked of that concept very early in his time here. What they didn't want to do is the trap we'd maybe fallen into before where we signed people on extreme wages and they never worked and never settled (not an unreasonable position in a majority of cases). Personally, I think that's why the thiago signing was such a surprise, because they've clearly had to give him the sort of deal the other senior players are on.

 

We'll never know the exactly details (well unless wiki leaks gets on the case), but it would be surprising if most of our squad earned double their reported salary.  

Bonus wise I'd imagine the costs were higher in the previous accounts, we won nearly every game you could win and won the champions league. The CL final was June 1st so it could be the case that some bonuses and wages fell into the next financial year. 

[Barrington Womble]

10 minutes ago, No2 said:

Bonus wise I'd imagine the costs were higher in the previous accounts, we won nearly every game you could win and won the champions league. The CL final was June 1st so it could be the case that some bonuses and wages fell into the next financial year. 

This is what I mean, the accounts today include last season up to the shutdown but because the CL final was late in 19 it missed the previous accounting period, so landed in this one. So the accounts we saw a year ago with still 300m+ wages were on the back of winning a lot of football games, but there was no trophy bonuses in there. 

[Dr Nowt]

I support FSG FC not Liverpool FC.

[TheHowieLama]

FSG SC pal

[Scott_M]

8 hours ago, Dr Nowt said:

I support FSG FC not Liverpool FC.

The FSG Way.

[Anubis]

9 hours ago, Dr Nowt said:

I support Untrustworthy Cunts FC not Liverpool FC.

Fixed it for you.

[Barrington Womble]

15 hours ago, aRdja said:

We’re talking about to carrying back trading losses here aren’t we? So this page is probably more relevant IMO.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/company-taxation-manual/ctm04510

 

Losses may only be carried back against profits of a preceding accounting period if the company was carrying on the trade (in which the loss was incurred) at some time in that accounting period.

 

The preceding period is usually the twelve months preceding the accounting period in which the loss is incurred. A temporary extension to this rule was introduced by FA09/S23. This extended the loss carry back to 3 years for accounting periods ending between 24 November 2008 and 23 November 2010. After carry back to the preceding year, a maximun of £50,000 of unused losses was available for carry back to the previous two years.

They’ve increased it again for Covid, but the net impact is only additional £800k max.

 

https://home.kpmg/uk/en/home/insights/2021/03/tmd-temporary-extension-to-carry-back-of-trading-losses.html

 

So during my morning shit from HMRC directly. 

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

13 hours ago, aRdja said:

The accounts are fully audited isn’t it, one would hope that EY would’ve covered salary expense recognition comprehensively in their testing, given that’s likely our largest expense type. 

I haven't read this year's accounts yet. Last year's we absolutely did not specify what we regarded as wages. So for sure (because it was listed as an item) we included employers NI. We didn't list the salaries of the players and I think (can't remember properly) we specified directors salaries and the highest earning director. Clearly agent fees are a part of player recruitment and retention in just the same way NI while not in the pay packet, is still a payroll related expense. I feel sure having looked at our "reported" payroll on these websites, the costs of directors, the separate statement we generally make to the PL what we've paid of agents fees, it feels the numbers add up and make sense if you include these costs. For FFP, I believe these costs can be accounted as outside salaries. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

The amount of top clubs running at losses even excluding Covid is ridiculous. Trying to chase success against clubs with near infinite resources is going to kill the game from top too bottom unless some kind of wage transfer caps are brought in or stricter FFP rules. How can they look at the game and the current path its on and think this isn't going to be damaging. All this is completely unsustainable unless the future is just football existing in the oil states, may aswell move it over there and start afresh.  

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, Bobby Hundreds said:

The amount of top clubs running at losses even excluding Covid is ridiculous. Trying to chase success against clubs with near infinite resources is going to kill the game from top too bottom unless some kind of wage transfer caps are brought in or stricter FFP rules. How can they look at the game and the current path its on and think this isn't going to be damaging. All this is completely unsustainable unless the future is just football existing in the oil states, may aswell move it over there and start afresh.  

The sad thing is in the past clubs were always up to their eyes in debt, but they were actually trying to win things, silver pots in the trophy cabinet. Now it's just a case of chasing the next pot of money.

[VladimirIlyich]

14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The sad thing is in the past clubs were always up to their eyes in debt, but they were actually trying to win things, silver pots in the trophy cabinet. Now it's just a case of chasing the next pot of money.

Yeah.Those Guardians of football morality,The Premier League,are responsible for that.

[Scott_M]

Full thread.

 

 

[aRdja]

42 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

So during my morning shit from HMRC directly. 

 

 

Yeah that’s pretty consistent with my post. If you carry back £2m over two preceding periods at the current corporation tax rate of 19% prior to FY19, the net impact is £760k. I just can’t see how we’d be able to recoup the £42m.

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

Full thread.

 

 

To sum up:

 

In our most successful period on the pitch in the last 30 years and buying no players of significant value in two years, the club would have only just broke even under normal circumstances. 

 

What does that tell you about how the club is being run? 

 

It's either incompetence or much worse. 

 

 

[aRdja]

2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I haven't read this year's accounts yet. Last year's we absolutely did not specify what we regarded as wages. So for sure (because it was listed as an item) we included employers NI. We didn't list the salaries of the players and I think (can't remember properly) we specified directors salaries and the highest earning director. Clearly agent fees are a part of player recruitment and retention in just the same way NI while not in the pay packet, is still a payroll related expense. I feel sure having looked at our "reported" payroll on these websites, the costs of directors, the separate statement we generally make to the PL what we've paid of agents fees, it feels the numbers add up and make sense if you include these costs. For FFP, I believe these costs can be accounted as outside salaries. 

I wouldn’t have thoughts agent fees would (or should) be part of the salary expenses. It’d either be just expensed as we pay the agent or capitalised and amortised over the life of the contract. Wouldn’t make sense to group fees paid to outside agents as part of remuneration costs, as they aren’t employees. Anyway, chances of the club getting away with grossing up players salary expenses to swindle money back to FSG is very low and not really worth wasting our team discussing IMO. It’d be an idiotic way of doing it. All payroll systems these days are automated and made to be very easy to reconcile for auditing purposes. The better way to do it is by charging the club bloated consulting fees for ‘shady’ services provided by FSG affiliated firms.

[Ranxerox]

2 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

The amount of top clubs running at losses even excluding Covid is ridiculous. Trying to chase success against clubs with near infinite resources is going to kill the game from top too bottom unless some kind of wage transfer caps are brought in or stricter FFP rules. How can they look at the game and the current path its on and think this isn't going to be damaging. All this is completely unsustainable unless the future is just football existing in the oil states, may aswell move it over there and start afresh.  

Not sure how a salary cap would ever work in footy, I think the ESL might have been able to pull it off given that it was going to be a more or less closed shop. How do you bring in a salary CAP across all of European football?