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Go fuck yourselves FSG


Neil G
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2 hours ago, Scott_M said:


Alternatively, bad injuries, key players lack of form and players being played out of position has led to disjointed performances, the performances have led to poorer results and the that has meant drops in confidence? 
 


I’m sure it makes sense, but I’m sure I quite follow that.

 

We buy a new centre back or two - say Konaté and White. 
 

Gini needs replacing. I read last night we like Neuhaus from Monchengladbach last night. 
 

Yep, replace Origi. Somebody, anybody would do. 

If Ox or Shaq were to leave we have Elliot coming back, maybe Minamino if we can see this Southampton version (although I wouldn’t be on it...). I’d assume Jones would get more time as well. 

 

I only see 3/4 signings there.
 

I know we all think we’re a bit threadbare at the moment because of who’s not available, but in general, we have a really strong squad with more than 2 capable players for each position. 

So part of this season's problem surely are based in our inability to put out a fresh, quality midfield? I don't think the idea of letting say Ox or Shaq go and not replace them solves any problem because you hope Jones will play more - who by the way has made 28 appearances already this season and we've hopefully got another 19 to go. Surely what we need is players like chamberlain, keita and Shaq to have contributed a combined 1000 minutes of football in 25 matches. If one of them goes, the pressure shouldn't be on Jones to play more, it should be on the replacements to contribute more. And we should probably expect milner to contribute less. 

 

And you reference minamino - I like the lad and really thought he would find his feet here, but klopp sees him every day and doesn't fancy him or he wouldn't allow him to leave when we're in this much shit. Already despite scoring twice, hassenhutl has referenced he needs to do more without the ball, he's only played 3 times! 

 

Elliot I like too - but while he's done ok in the championship, no more than say Wilson was doing a few years back at hull, so the bar is not terrifically high in that league. He's 17 and I think it would be pretty wreckless to assume he's ready to contribute here. I was hoping Blackburn would come up and he could stay with them, but they've completely fallen off a cliff recently like us and are 10 points and places off the play offs, so that's not going to happen. 

 

I think we're in a position where perhaps next year we need to be concentrating on getting back to fighting for 1st and not 4th. I certainly wouldn't be planning to do it with either our kids or the fringe players who've failed us already. 

 

I'm not saying we won't only see 3 or 4 signings (in fact I would be amazed if it was as many as 4), but I don't think it is unreasonable to think the following could/should happen

 

Centre back in - nobody out (I'm not considering kabak an LFC player)

Gini out - Neuhaus or Bissouma in (I'm not recommending either, just they've both been linked)

Origi out - another forward in. 

 

Then any two of ox, keita, minamino, Shaq, matip out (and don't forget there's Karius, Adrian, Grujic, Wilson who should all be converted from wastes of space into footballers that can contribute). - 2 players in. 

 

So I don't think that's extreme ... Yet it's 5 players. But let's be honest, if there were offers for all of those players above, we should accept it surely, they contribute? Then surely they need to be replaced? Our aim can't be to replace them with thin air, that's our issue right now. 

 

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1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

So part of this season's problem surely are based in our inability to put out a fresh, quality midfield? I don't think the idea of letting say Ox or Shaq go and not replace them solves any problem because you hope Jones will play more - who by the way has made 28 appearances already this season and we've hopefully got another 19 to go. Surely what we need is players like chamberlain, keita and Shaq to have contributed a combined 1000 minutes of football in 25 matches. If one of them goes, the pressure shouldn't be on Jones to play more, it should be on the replacements to contribute more. And we should probably expect milner to contribute less. 

 

And you reference minamino - I like the lad and really thought he would find his feet here, but klopp sees him every day and doesn't fancy him or he wouldn't allow him to leave when we're in this much shit. Already despite scoring twice, hassenhutl has referenced he needs to do more without the ball, he's only played 3 times! 

 

Elliot I like too - but while he's done ok in the championship, no more than say Wilson was doing a few years back at hull, so the bar is not terrifically high in that league. He's 17 and I think it would be pretty wreckless to assume he's ready to contribute here. I was hoping Blackburn would come up and he could stay with them, but they've completely fallen off a cliff recently like us and are 10 points and places off the play offs, so that's not going to happen. 

 

I think we're in a position where perhaps next year we need to be concentrating on getting back to fighting for 1st and not 4th. I certainly wouldn't be planning to do it with either our kids or the fringe players who've failed us already. 

 

I'm not saying we won't only see 3 or 4 signings (in fact I would be amazed if it was as many as 4), but I don't think it is unreasonable to think the following could/should happen

 

Centre back in - nobody out (I'm not considering kabak an LFC player)

Gini out - Neuhaus or Bissouma in (I'm not recommending either, just they've both been linked)

Origi out - another forward in. 

 

Then any two of ox, keita, minamino, Shaq, matip out (and don't forget there's Karius, Adrian, Grujic, Wilson who should all be converted from wastes of space into footballers that can contribute). - 2 players in. 

 

So I don't think that's extreme ... Yet it's 5 players. But let's be honest, if there were offers for all of those players above, we should accept it surely, they contribute? Then surely they need to be replaced? Our aim can't be to replace them with thin air, that's our issue right now. 

 

 

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow all that.

 

However, I do agree (which I think you saying) is that the squad players we have (Ox, Shaq, Keita, Minamino, etc) a have contributed absolutely fuck all this season, then I completely agree.

 

The way I envisage the core squad to be-ish next season would be...

 

Alisson, Kelleher

TAA, Williams, Milner

Robbo, Tsmiskas, Milner

VVD, Gomez, Matip, Davies, 2 new players.

Hendo, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Milner, Ox, 1 new player.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Jota, Elliot, 1 new player.

 

Gomez and Matip stay because they actually contribute when they play. Ox to stay because he's English. 25 players, significant cover in every position. 

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34 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

 

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow all that.

 

However, I do agree (which I think you saying) is that the squad players we have (Ox, Shaq, Keita, Minamino, etc) a have contributed absolutely fuck all this season, then I completely agree.

 

The way I envisage the core squad to be-ish next season would be...

 

Alisson, Kelleher

TAA, Williams, Milner

Robbo, Tsmiskas, Milner

VVD, Gomez, Matip, Davies, 2 new players.

Hendo, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Milner, Ox, 1 new player.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Jota, Elliot, 1 new player.

 

Gomez and Matip stay because they actually contribute when they play. Ox to stay because he's English. 25 players, significant cover in every position. 

Agree with all of that except I think it'll be Davies plus just one other CB. And maybe keep Shaq instead of Ox. So three players in and probably five or six of those who've hardly contributed this season out (plus Gini's wages) to pay for them. 

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1 minute ago, aws said:

Agree with all of that except I think it'll be Davies plus just one other CB. And maybe keep Shaq instead of Ox. So three players in and probably five or six of those who've hardly contributed this season out (plus Gini's wages) to pay for them. 

 

Yep, don't expect we'll all agree on the players to keep or sell but broadly that's my expectation.

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2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

 

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow all that.

 

However, I do agree (which I think you saying) is that the squad players we have (Ox, Shaq, Keita, Minamino, etc) a have contributed absolutely fuck all this season, then I completely agree.

 

The way I envisage the core squad to be-ish next season would be...

 

Alisson, Kelleher

TAA, Williams, Milner

Robbo, Tsmiskas, Milner

VVD, Gomez, Matip, Davies, 2 new players.

Hendo, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Milner, Ox, 1 new player.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Jota, Elliot, 1 new player.

 

Gomez and Matip stay because they actually contribute when they play. Ox to stay because he's English. 25 players, significant cover in every position. 

So you would let Shaq, Gini, origi and minamino all leave and bring in just 1 forward and 1 midfielder? 

 

I'll be shocked to see Davies here next year to be honest. 

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35 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

So you would let Shaq, Gini, origi and minamino all leave and bring in just 1 forward and 1 midfielder? 

 

I'll be shocked to see Davies here next year to be honest. 

 

I'd be happy for 3 nothing players to leave and 2 players who'd challenge for the first team from day 1 to come in, yes.

 

Also, Elliot is back as back up. So I'm releasing 4 players and bringing in 3, 1 of who is last choice - not unlike Minamino or Origi.

 

Bold players are new signings. Obviously who knows if they will sign, but we've been heavily linked with all of them so lets just use them as examples (Ox and Milner used is different positions due to their versatility)...

 

Alisson, Kelleher.

TAA, Williams, Milner. 

Robbo, Tsmiskas, Milner.

VVD, Gomez, Matip, Davies, Konate, White.

Hendo, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Milner, Ox, Neuhaus.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Jota, Elliot, Ox, Raphinnia.

 

...that gives us >2 options per position. Minamino, Keita and Shaq have really offered nothing for 2 years. We're letting 3 players go (2 of which have had substantial injury problems) who don't contribute anyway, and are replacing them with younger, hungrier and (hopefully) fitter players, who lets face it, at worse, could only contribute the same. 

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41 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

 

I'd be happy for 3 nothing players to leave and 2 players who'd challenge for the first team from day 1 to come in, yes.

 

Also, Elliot is back as back up. So I'm releasing 4 players and bringing in 3, 1 of who is last choice - not unlike Minamino or Origi.

 

Bold players are new signings. Obviously who knows if they will sign, but we've been heavily linked with all of them so lets just use them as examples (Ox and Milner used is different positions due to their versatility)...

 

Alisson, Kelleher.

TAA, Williams, Milner. 

Robbo, Tsmiskas, Milner.

VVD, Gomez, Matip, Davies, Konate, White.

Hendo, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Milner, Ox, Neuhaus.

Salah, Mane, Firmino, Jota, Elliot, Ox, Raphinnia.

 

...that gives us >2 options per position. Minamino, Keita and Shaq have really offered nothing for 2 years. We're letting 3 players go (2 of which have had substantial injury problems) who don't contribute anyway, and are replacing them with younger, hungrier and (hopefully) fitter players, who lets face it, at worse, could only contribute the same. 

I don't think we'd bring in 2 senior centre backs and all the ones on our books now. I'm not against 2 new centre backs, who knows vvd might be shit when he comes back, but we'd have to let one of matip or Gomez go. 

 

Either way - you're at 4 players here which is reasonably substantial anyway. Do you really think it would be unreasonable if it was 5 as I suggested it might be? And 5 is a bit of a rebuild. 

 

Personally I think we won't bring in more than 3 regardless of how many go out.  

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1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't think we'd bring in 2 senior centre backs and all the ones on our books now. I'm not against 2 new centre backs, who knows vvd might be shit when he comes back, but we'd have to let one of matip or Gomez go. 

 

Either way - you're at 4 players here which is reasonably substantial anyway. Do you really think it would be unreasonable if it was 5 as I suggested it might be? And 5 is a bit of a rebuild. 

 

Personally I think we won't bring in more than 3 regardless of how many go out.  

Matip being kept as one of three or even four senior centre halves is just too risky.

 

He can't be trusted to stay fit and that isn't going to change...it isn't even a case of him getting one or two bad long term injuries...its just a succession of ailments.

 

At the end of this season he will have played in 19 of our last 76 league games.

 

He needs to go.

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1 minute ago, an tha said:

Matip being kept as one of three or even four senior centre halves is just too risky.

 

He can't be trusted to stay fit and that isn't going to change...it isn't even a case of him getting one or two bad long term injuries...its just a succession of ailments.

 

At the end of this season he will have played in 19 of our last 76 league games.

 

He needs to go.

I am not arguing with that. But I'm just saying we won't bring in 2 centre backs if the 3 we started the season are still at the club. We might bring in 1, no way are we bringing in 2. This is the point I've been making about squad management (I think a page or two back in this thread). We have to stop having half a dozen lads in our squad who contribute zero - or in the case of the likes of origi, minamino and currently Ox and Shaq, that even when they're fit and available, the manager doesn't want them near the pitch. 

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3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I am not arguing with that. But I'm just saying we won't bring in 2 centre backs if the 3 we started the season are still at the club. We might bring in 1, no way are we bringing in 2. This is the point I've been making about squad management (I think a page or two back in this thread). We have to stop having half a dozen lads in our squad who contribute zero - or in the case of the likes of origi, minamino and currently Ox and Shaq, that even when they're fit and available, the manager doesn't want them near the pitch. 

Yeah agreed.

 

Perma-crocks are no use and leave us short.

 

They eat up wages, and take a space up in squad whilst contributing nothing.

 

Keita, Matip and Oxlade were all really needed this season and when we needed them they were largely nowhere to be seen.

 

That has to change - it is killing us.

 

And 100% agree on having too many players who may as not be here as Klopp won't play them unless he has absolutely no other choice, and then when they do play they add fuck all.

 

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12 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't think we'd bring in 2 senior centre backs and all the ones on our books now. I'm not against 2 new centre backs, who knows vvd might be shit when he comes back, but we'd have to let one of matip or Gomez go. 

 

Either way - you're at 4 players here which is reasonably substantial anyway. Do you really think it would be unreasonable if it was 5 as I suggested it might be? And 5 is a bit of a rebuild. 

 

Personally I think we won't bring in more than 3 regardless of how many go out.  


Well, who knows what Davies will be like. He might actually be reasonable squad player, he might be there make up the UK numbers. 
 

IMO, Gomez and Matip actually contribute and play well when available, so I’m willing to give them more of a chance to prove themselves. However, you can only count them as 1 player (at best) because they are both out half the time.

 

If we sign just 1 centre back and we get an injury or two, we could quite easily be down to A player + Davies, which is practically where we are now. 
 

We might only sign one, but as we’ve both said, we’re just spitballing here, my preference is two for the above reasons and I don’t think it’s an unrealistic expectation.

 

IMO, losing Gini for an adequate replacement and losing Shaqiri, Origi & Mininamo for an adequate replacement isn’t a rebuild - its natural squad attrition. Appreciate you might feel different. 

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20 minutes ago, Scott_M said:


Well, who knows what Davies will be like. He might actually be reasonable squad player, he might be there make up the UK numbers. 
 

IMO, Gomez and Matip actually contribute and play well when available, so I’m willing to give them more of a chance to prove themselves. However, you can only count them as 1 player (at best) because they are both out half the time.

 

If we sign just 1 centre back and we get an injury or two, we could quite easily be down to A player + Davies, which is practically where we are now. 
 

We might only sign one, but as we’ve both said, we’re just spitballing here, my preference is two for the above reasons and I don’t think it’s an unrealistic expectation.

 

IMO, losing Gini for an adequate replacement and losing Shaqiri, Origi & Mininamo for an adequate replacement isn’t a rebuild - its natural squad attrition. Appreciate you might feel different. 

So I understand your point on the centre backs, in fact I'd kind of agree - well except my expectation on Davies is zero and I think he's been signed to do no more than allow Williams to play age level football when possible this season and then we sell him for a few million profit in the summer - although with Henderson now injured, Williams will still be on the bench I suspect. However, 10 years of watching how fsg operate, I don't think they'll see Gomez and Matip as 1 player (frankly they're barely that either), while they're here, they'll burn up a space in the squad. And honestly if we bring in 2 centre backs of the quality you suggest, when will they get their game? As they'd likely be 4th and 5th choice because injury will give the others opportunity to step up. 

 

In terms of rebuild - I think once you replace  20% of the squad, that's a rebuild. It's not revolution, but it's certainly not evolution either.  A 5 player summer is pretty significant. 

 

But as I said before, I don't think it'll be that many. I think 3 are essential not matter what, but can see a world of 6. I don't think LFC/FSG would agree. 

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4 minutes ago, an tha said:

A squad should never be allowed to reach stage where a 'major rebuild' is required.

 

Hopefully we don't allow it to happen - although it does feel that is where we are heading with too many perma-crocks, too many nothing players and an ageing squad.

The skill here though is replacing the crocks or the origi's with players who can make a big difference. I've said before, but if we add a centre back without losing anyone, and 2 Jota standard signings for midfield and attack, we've made a good start in refreshing the 1st team as well as the squad - well have vvd back, fabinho and Henderson will be back in midfield. Jones will have the experience of this year behind him. We could end up where our 5th choice attacker is firmino and maybe midfield would be Henderson, fabinho, new guy, Jones ... Then keita, thiago, milner behind that. 

 

I also think another thing that perhaps klopp needs to think about is how he fills those square peg round hole issues. Historically he's had say milner doing full back and ox joining the attackers. But that's ok, they weren't first choice, so they got their games in midfield and some in their back up position. But when they're in their backup position, they're not damaging the first XI. Using Henderson and fabinho as we have (I realise Henderson at the back has been exceptional), but it has really hurt us. We've weakened 4 places on the pitch. It was clear we came into this season with a plan to use fabinho at centre back. But that's been really bad for us. 

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32 minutes ago, an tha said:

A squad should never be allowed to reach stage where a 'major rebuild' is required.

 

Hopefully we don't allow it to happen - although it does feel that is where we are heading with too many perma-crocks, too many nothing players and an ageing squad.

It was always going to happen if you look at the ages of our best players and when the contracts end. That's why you've had plenty of people, and rightfully so, debate when it would be appropriate to sell and replace some of these players. It just looks like more of a dubious job now because we've also quickly accumulated useless players and we now have to get rid of them too. So now it feels like we need to sell and replace half the squad at the same time. 

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25 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The skill here though is replacing the crocks or the origi's with players who can make a big difference. I've said before, but if we add a centre back without losing anyone, and 2 Jota standard signings for midfield and attack, we've made a good start in refreshing the 1st team as well as the squad - well have vvd back, fabinho and Henderson will be back in midfield. Jones will have the experience of this year behind him. We could end up where our 5th choice attacker is firmino and maybe midfield would be Henderson, fabinho, new guy, Jones ... Then keita, thiago, milner behind that. 

 

I also think another thing that perhaps klopp needs to think about is how he fills those square peg round hole issues. Historically he's had say milner doing full back and ox joining the attackers. But that's ok, they weren't first choice, so they got their games in midfield and some in their back up position. But when they're in their backup position, they're not damaging the first XI. Using Henderson and fabinho as we have (I realise Henderson at the back has been exceptional), but it has really hurt us. We've weakened 4 places on the pitch. It was clear we came into this season with a plan to use fabinho at centre back. But that's been really bad for us. 

Yeah.

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16 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

It was always going to happen if you look at the ages of our best players and when the contracts end. That's why you've had plenty of people, and rightfully so, debate when it would be appropriate to sell and replace some of these players. It just looks like more of a dubious job now because we've also quickly accumulated useless players and we now have to get rid of them too. So now it feels like we need to sell and replace half the squad at the same time. 

Bad planning/squad management.

 

And dare i say it short term thinking.

 

OK we have of course had 3 brilliant seasons and 2 of them succesful - but you have to have your eyes on keeping that going and planning for the coming seasons/fixing the issues in squad.

 

We seem to be allowing the spine to grow old at same time, be doing nothing about the perma crocks, or the nothing players and rely on square pegs when round holes need covering, weakening the areas we pull them from to cover, or contributing nothing of note when dropped into team to play out of position....things like bringing off Mane and asking Origi to play out wide, or starting Oxlade in front 3, Milner at full back etc....

 

 

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8 minutes ago, an tha said:

Bad planning/squad management.

 

And dare i say it short term thinking.

 

OK we have of course had 3 brilliant seasons and 2 of them succesful - but you have to have your eyes on keeping that going and planning for the coming seasons/fixing the issues in squad.

 

We seem to be allowing the spine to grow old at same time, be doing nothing about the perma crocks, or the nothing players and rely on square pegs when round holes need covering, weakening the areas we pull them from to cover, or contributing nothing of note when dropped into team to play out of position....things like bringing off Mane and asking Origi to play out wide, or starting Oxlade in front 3, Milner at full back etc....

 

 

Listen, it was genius when we were winning and now it looks incredibly short-sighted. That's how this stuff works. 

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25 minutes ago, an tha said:

Bad planning/squad management.

 

And dare i say it short term thinking.

 

OK we have of course had 3 brilliant seasons and 2 of them succesful - but you have to have your eyes on keeping that going and planning for the coming seasons/fixing the issues in squad.

 

We seem to be allowing the spine to grow old at same time, be doing nothing about the perma crocks, or the nothing players and rely on square pegs when round holes need covering, weakening the areas we pull them from to cover, or contributing nothing of note when dropped into team to play out of position....things like bringing off Mane and asking Origi to play out wide, or starting Oxlade in front 3, Milner at full back etc....

 

 

I'd say its only been 'short term' thinking on Klopp's part because he doesn't believe he'd get enough money to replace our best players with 'like for like' replacements. I think he's had to work like that from almost the beginning but was clever enough to be able to wheel and deal through it. Now he knows(covid is one of the reasons,but not the only one) that he hasnt got any real money to spend and cant even sell to buy at the moment.

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According to Sportico, last month RedBird acquired 30-40% stake in Wasserman (formerly Wasserman Media Group or WMG). 

 

As many Liverpool fans may have forgotten, Wasserman has represented a number of Liverpool players over the years, including Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen, and Jamie Carragher. Currently, Joe Gomez, Neco Williams, and Jordan Henderson are represented by Wasserman; other Premier League notables include Aymeric LaPorte, Jamie Vardy, John Stones, Rhian Brewster, and Harvey Barnes. Internationally, they represent Gio Reyna, Houssem Aouar, and Federico Valverde.

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1 hour ago, Bad Red Bull said:

According to Sportico, last month RedBird acquired 30-40% stake in Wasserman (formerly Wasserman Media Group or WMG). 

 

As many Liverpool fans may have forgotten, Wasserman has represented a number of Liverpool players over the years, including Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen, and Jamie Carragher. Currently, Joe Gomez, Neco Williams, and Jordan Henderson are represented by Wasserman; other Premier League notables include Aymeric LaPorte, Jamie Vardy, John Stones, Rhian Brewster, and Harvey Barnes. Internationally, they represent Gio Reyna, Houssem Aouar, and Federico Valverde.

I read that the other day interesting stuff.

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Another FSG arselicking article in the Echo. This time telling everyone how clever they have been since 2016 with transfers mentioning the Coutinho money.  And how much better they have been than Man Utd. It's at least once a week they do an article about how clever Liverpool have been since 2016.

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