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Go fuck yourselves FSG


Neil G
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1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

Well that's these people faults. It's pretty clear we've been sell to buy. I've still not heard why that's a bad thing, though. I mean the whole point of building a team is keeping the good players who are happy to play for you and to replace the ones who don't want to play for you. You can't tell me anyone good has ever been sold when they still wanted to be here. The difference now is players want to be here, so there's less room in the squad and less money to spend. Oh well. 

 

And the difference between us and Manchester United is they've always been the richest club, they could buy anybody. That's just not realistic when we were mediocre for 25 years and started to lag behind. FSG are our owners because they think they can compete in a world where there are financial regulations. The problem is, there aren't any and so now their crime is basically that they're broke and don't/can't spend their own money because the supposed rules say they shouldn't. That's just not really a fair criticism, to be honest. It's bad faith. 

 

I've always just enjoyed that they're competent for the most part at owning a sports team. That's it really. And it's enough for me I guess, not for some. 

 

Do you understand the concept that money does not equal cash?

 

If they put in $100m in tomorrow, they won't actually be putting their hand in their own pocket. They bought a club for 300m (or so) and its currently worth 1.5bn (or so). Asking them to invest in the playing squad beyond the proceeds of player sales is no act of fucking benevolence, it is asking Liverpool to spend within its means. If you are a club worth 1.5bn, how the fuck can you not afford to spend a penny on transfers in four transfer windows?

 

When they sell the club they will make a fucking windfall. The fact that they are unwilling to invest money into a club that has already guaranteed them a fortune is absolutely something they should be dragged for.

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1 hour ago, FrenchEyeGlass said:

 

Do you understand the concept that money does not equal cash?

 

If they put in $100m in tomorrow, they won't actually be putting their hand in their own pocket. They bought a club for 300m (or so) and its currently worth 1.5bn (or so). Asking them to invest in the playing squad beyond the proceeds of player sales is no act of fucking benevolence, it is asking Liverpool to spend within its means. If you are a club worth 1.5bn, how the fuck can you not afford to spend a penny on transfers in four transfer windows?

 

When they sell the club they will make a fucking windfall. The fact that they are unwilling to invest money into a club that has already guaranteed them a fortune is absolutely something they should be dragged for.

Doesn't make sense in FFP terms though dude.

 

Clubs are only supposed to spend what they earn, and keep debt within very low levels.  It has nothing to do with the estimated book value of the club.

 

There is an exemption for investment in stadium infrastructure though, so you can freely bag FSG for not spending their own money on the Anny Road replacement.

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32 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Doesn't make sense in FFP terms though dude.

 

Clubs are only supposed to spend what they earn, and keep debt within very low levels.  It has nothing to do with the estimated book value of the club.

 

There is an exemption for investment in stadium infrastructure though, so you can freely bag FSG for not spending their own money on the Anny Road replacement.

Isn't the FFP thing dead in the water now?

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1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Isn't the FFP thing dead in the water now?

No, just UEFA’s case against Man City for breaching it. They only “got off“ on legal technicalities. (still had to pay £10 million fine, so it’s not like they were completely exonerated no matter how much Guardiola would want you to believe.)


A club could try and go the City route, ignore all the rules, engage in fraudulent accounting, get banned and then hope UEFA were similarly shoddy in their process in an appeal to CAS. I’m sure Uncle Uzzy is planning that with Everton.

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43 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

No, just UEFA’s case against Man City for breaching it. They only “got off“ on legal technicalities. (still had to pay £10 million fine, so it’s not like they were completely exonerated no matter how much Guardiola would want you to believe.)


A club could try and go the City route, ignore all the rules, engage in fraudulent accounting, get banned and then hope UEFA were similarly shoddy in their process in an appeal to CAS. I’m sure Uncle Uzzy is planning that with Everton.

The road until we'll see CL finals between Abu Dhabi FC and Quatar FC has been cut shorter by Covid-19. I expect teams who actually need to consider economical consequenses will stay low leaving the market open to the princes of the middle east and maybe a couple of Chinese fellas to sign whatever talent they might find without much competition.

 

Maybe the December world cup in 2022 won't be just a disruption in the middle of the season, maybe we won't care anyway?

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5 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

Well that's these people faults. It's pretty clear we've been sell to buy. I've still not heard why that's a bad thing, though. I mean the whole point of building a team is keeping the good players who are happy to play for you and to replace the ones who don't want to play for you. You can't tell me anyone good has ever been sold when they still wanted to be here. The difference now is players want to be here, so there's less room in the squad and less money to spend. Oh well. 

 

And the difference between us and Manchester United is they've always been the richest club, they could buy anybody. That's just not realistic when we were mediocre for 25 years and started to lag behind. FSG are our owners because they think they can compete in a world where there are financial regulations. The problem is, there aren't any and so now their crime is basically that they're broke and don't/can't spend their own money because the supposed rules say they shouldn't. That's just not really a fair criticism, to be honest. It's bad faith. 

 

I've always just enjoyed that they're competent for the most part at owning a sports team. That's it really. And it's enough for me I guess, not for some. 

Here's something really simple. If as a club you are trying to build long term success, you don't sell your best players and you create an environment where they want to stay. So now klopp has created that environment, we should have this so called "virtuous circle" the club keep telling us about that allows for the club to reinvest the increased revenue from success into the team in order to maintain success. However, we stopped at the winning things and since we've put a trophy in the cabinet, we've never spent so little as the owners know they're not under pressure.

 

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, we're at Moore's levels of investment and he knew that wasn't enough when we were turning over 200m. And to cap it all off, they're still fucking about talking about the Annie road, when the stadium was the one project they promised coming through the door with their "under promise and over deliver" mantra. 10 years. 1 promise. And we're still looking at artists pictures. Then people wank over them building a training facility, like running a training facility is not a cost of doing business. We're one of the wealthiest clubs in the world and we should be chuffed we have a fit for purpose training complex? It beggars belief the length people will go to to big these people up "the owner of Weetabix are the best cereal makers in the world as they've just bought a wheat crusher to meet their modern needs". 

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36 minutes ago, The Gaul said:

Here's something really simple. If as a club you are trying to build long term success, you don't sell your best players and you create an environment where they want to stay. So now klopp has created that environment, we should have this so called "virtuous circle" the club keep telling us about that allows for the club to reinvest the increased revenue from success into the team in order to maintain success. However, we stopped at the winning things and since we've put a trophy in the cabinet, we've never spent so little as the owners know they're not under pressure.

 

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, we're at Moore's levels of investment and he knew that wasn't enough when we were turning over 200m. And to cap it all off, they're still fucking about talking about the Annie road, when the stadium was the one project they promised coming through the door with their "under promise and over deliver" mantra. 10 years. 1 promise. And we're still looking at artists pictures. Then people wank over them building a training facility, like running a training facility is not a cost of doing business. We're one of the wealthiest clubs in the world and we should be chuffed we have a fit for purpose training complex? It beggars belief the length people will go to to big these people up "the owner of Weetabix are the best cereal makers in the world as they've just bought a wheat crusher to meet their modern needs". 

Most of your posts on this subject have been sensible but "we're still looking at artists pictures" stinks of pettiness and point scoring. You know full well the ARE was about to start and turn the stadium into something a million times better than any of us thought possible 10 years ago. But for Covid it was happening, the rearranging of the schedule made it impossible never mind the uncertainty over finances or crowd. You can't seriously expect anyone to expand a stadium and a time when we don't know when people will be allowed in it? 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, No2 said:

Most of your posts on this subject have been sensible but "we're still looking at artists pictures" stinks of pettiness and point scoring. You know full well the ARE was about to start and turn the stadium into something a million times better than any of us thought possible 10 years ago. But for Covid it was happening, the rearranging of the schedule made it impossible never mind the uncertainty over finances or crowd. You can't seriously expect anyone to expand a stadium and a time when we don't know when people will be allowed in it? 

 

 

It's not pettiness at all. 10 years to get an artist's impression? We're fucking laughing at Everton doing the same in 4 years for a 500m project, not a 60m bolt on to the existing stand. They are constantly looking for excuses not to invest, be that the stadium or the team. The main stand got done because they could ram it full of corporates. They looked at the road end and dismissed it previously because it would take 17 years to pay back. They've been here 10, it'd be half paid for now if they'd got their fingers out. They've only got interested now because of spurs success with that junior level corporate they've done in their ground and they realised they could make more money and the 1st chance they got to put it on hold they did. 

 

There is always an excuse in the same way as there is with transfers. There's no value because it's world cup year, there's no value in January, there's no value because of the euros, there's no value because people are scambling round this summer because of the euros last summer, there's no value because one transfer inflated the market. The only time they see any value in the market is when they flog someone. Nobody to flog, the player goes elsewhere and we get fed all this shit "klopp treats the money like it's his own, he wouldn't pay the wages". Then we sell someone and bring in the most expensive goalkeeper and centre back on the planet. He wasn't treating the money like his own then, he was fucking made up to get quality players. In other words he'll spend what his given and he's usually given fuck all. The issue with the stadium is absolutely identical. 

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Ian Ayre did an interview a few years back saying that the fans could fund the Anfield road end or that they would make some of it apartments to raise the money for the stand so the owners wouldn't have to pay for it. 

 

Before the main stand was redeveloped they dithered on it and tried another money making scheme by making people pay to stay on the season ticket waiting list. Even if it was a fiver or tenner, you are paying for something that might never happen in your lifetime. They did a survey of whether the demand would be there when they knew that there was approximately 35,000 people on the waiting list. 

 

The main stand needed redeveloping as it looked like a lower league stand and embarassing for a club of Liverpool's stature. I went to a sportsman dinner there in 2011 and it looked exactly the same as when I went there in about 1987. 

 

The Anfield road end is an awful stand, it is one of the worst in the league for views so it's more of a necessity rather than a luxury. The top half was bolted on in 1997 and the rest of the structure was what had been there for years.  You've then still got thousands of people on the season ticket waiting list. 

 

I'm glad we never moved but one of the conditions of the sale was to sort out the stadium and at the moment only the main stand has been built in a 10 year period.

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We've got the ARE project that is going to happen. We should look at it as 'all we got after 10 years is a picture'. We got a redeveloped Anfield and a new training ground with the ARE going ahead soon. I mean... I dunno, it's not really a valid criticism to me. It's a real world project that costs many millions. It'd be great to have them throw money at everything and have it pop up the next week, but it just isn't going to happen. 

 

I do think at a time like this they need to support the manager in the market now, during this weird environment, even if it's out of pocket and repaid with dividends over time. Now is the time to invest or sell a small stake to improve the business. That sort of stuff. I've been fairly supportive of their approach, and it has paid off on the pitch and off of it, but now they need to push a little bit, but probably will not.

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16 minutes ago, The Gaul said:

It's not pettiness at all. 10 years to get an artist's impression? We're fucking laughing at Everton doing the same in 4 years for a 500m project, not a 60m bolt on to the existing stand. They are constantly looking for excuses not to invest, be that the stadium or the team. The main stand got done because they could ram it full of corporates. They looked at the road end and dismissed it previously because it would take 17 years to pay back. They've been here 10, it'd be half paid for now if they'd got their fingers out. They've only got interested now because of spurs success with that junior level corporate they've done in their ground and they realised they could make more money and the 1st chance they got to put it on hold they did. 

 

There is always an excuse in the same way as there is with transfers. There's no value because it's world cup year, there's no value in January, there's no value because of the euros, there's no value because people are scambling round this summer because of the euros last summer, there's no value because one transfer inflated the market. The only time they see any value in the market is when they flog someone. Nobody to flog, the player goes elsewhere and we get fed all this shit "klopp treats the money like it's his own, he wouldn't pay the wages". Then we sell someone and bring in the most expensive goalkeeper and centre back on the planet. He wasn't treating the money like his own then, he was fucking made up to get quality players. In other words he'll spend what his given and he's usually given fuck all. The issue with the stadium is absolutely identical. 

That's all very football manager. I haven't played that game in many a year, I wonder when you're tacking on an extension in that game do you need to consider the various obstacles we had to or do you just whack it on the overdraft and build it while the game loads overnight?

 

Hindsight is great but lets not forget just how complex this all was, there are still articles being written about how shabby the treatment was of the local residents, homes were torn down, the area left to shit. Nothing in that period was easy, the relationship with the council wasn't great, they were pushing for a cheaper shared option, plenty wanted a new shiny stadium.

 

I'm sure FSG remember 22,500 turning up at home to Northampton. It's easy for us to say build it and they will come but working with the actual numbers the facts where very different. We were shit, a shambles at a very level of the organisation, shit at making money, shit at recruiting, shit at appointing managers and added to this we had rivals with untold fortunes streaking ahead of us. So to say just build it and ignore everything else is disingenuous. The ARE should have started last year in my opinion but I feel they have earned the right to be trusted on decisions such as this. 

 

I'm 33 years watching the reds, the team we have now is the best in that period, we're brilliant. Below is the team that played and lost to Blackpool at Anfield 3 days before FSG bought the club. That side below would be in with a great shot of being the worst side I've seen in 33 years. Some perspective is needed.

P Reina 
G Johnson
S Kyrgiakos 
M Skrtel
J Carragher
C Poulsen 
R Meireles
D Kuyt
S Gerrard (c)
J Cole 
F Torres 
Substitutes
B Jones
M Jovanovic 
M Rodriguez 
L Leiva
D Ngog 
J Spearing
M Kelly
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1 hour ago, The Gaul said:

It's not pettiness at all. 10 years to get an artist's impression? We're fucking laughing at Everton doing the same in 4 years for a 500m project, not a 60m bolt on to the existing stand. They are constantly looking for excuses not to invest, be that the stadium or the team. The main stand got done because they could ram it full of corporates. They looked at the road end and dismissed it previously because it would take 17 years to pay back. They've been here 10, it'd be half paid for now if they'd got their fingers out. They've only got interested now because of spurs success with that junior level corporate they've done in their ground and they realised they could make more money and the 1st chance they got to put it on hold they did. 

 

There is always an excuse in the same way as there is with transfers. There's no value because it's world cup year, there's no value in January, there's no value because of the euros, there's no value because people are scambling round this summer because of the euros last summer, there's no value because one transfer inflated the market. The only time they see any value in the market is when they flog someone. Nobody to flog, the player goes elsewhere and we get fed all this shit "klopp treats the money like it's his own, he wouldn't pay the wages". Then we sell someone and bring in the most expensive goalkeeper and centre back on the planet. He wasn't treating the money like his own then, he was fucking made up to get quality players. In other words he'll spend what his given and he's usually given fuck all. The issue with the stadium is absolutely identical. 

Yeah, sometimes the excuses have been bullshit.  This time though, it’s obviously not bullshit.

 

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2 hours ago, The Gaul said:

It's not pettiness at all. 10 years to get an artist's impression? We're fucking laughing at Everton doing the same in 4 years for a 500m project, not a 60m bolt on to the existing stand. They are constantly looking for excuses not to invest, be that the stadium or the team. The main stand got done because they could ram it full of corporates. They looked at the road end and dismissed it previously because it would take 17 years to pay back. They've been here 10, it'd be half paid for now if they'd got their fingers out. They've only got interested now because of spurs success with that junior level corporate they've done in their ground and they realised they could make more money and the 1st chance they got to put it on hold they did. 

 

There is always an excuse in the same way as there is with transfers. There's no value because it's world cup year, there's no value in January, there's no value because of the euros, there's no value because people are scambling round this summer because of the euros last summer, there's no value because one transfer inflated the market. The only time they see any value in the market is when they flog someone. Nobody to flog, the player goes elsewhere and we get fed all this shit "klopp treats the money like it's his own, he wouldn't pay the wages". Then we sell someone and bring in the most expensive goalkeeper and centre back on the planet. He wasn't treating the money like his own then, he was fucking made up to get quality players. In other words he'll spend what his given and he's usually given fuck all. The issue with the stadium is absolutely identical. 

Fucking brilliant post. If only beach ball head Pearce would ask these questions.

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2 hours ago, No2 said:

That's all very football manager. I haven't played that game in many a year, I wonder when you're tacking on an extension in that game do you need to consider the various obstacles we had to or do you just whack it on the overdraft and build it while the game loads overnight?

 

Hindsight is great but lets not forget just how complex this all was, there are still articles being written about how shabby the treatment was of the local residents, homes were torn down, the area left to shit. Nothing in that period was easy, the relationship with the council wasn't great, they were pushing for a cheaper shared option, plenty wanted a new shiny stadium.

 

I'm sure FSG remember 22,500 turning up at home to Northampton. It's easy for us to say build it and they will come but working with the actual numbers the facts where very different. We were shit, a shambles at a very level of the organisation, shit at making money, shit at recruiting, shit at appointing managers and added to this we had rivals with untold fortunes streaking ahead of us. So to say just build it and ignore everything else is disingenuous. The ARE should have started last year in my opinion but I feel they have earned the right to be trusted on decisions such as this. 

 

I'm 33 years watching the reds, the team we have now is the best in that period, we're brilliant. Below is the team that played and lost to Blackpool at Anfield 3 days before FSG bought the club. That side below would be in with a great shot of being the worst side I've seen in 33 years. Some perspective is needed.

P Reina 
G Johnson
S Kyrgiakos 
M Skrtel
J Carragher
C Poulsen 
R Meireles
D Kuyt
S Gerrard (c)
J Cole 
F Torres 
Substitutes
B Jones
M Jovanovic 
M Rodriguez 
L Leiva
D Ngog 
J Spearing
M Kelly

Well said fella, fuck me, it's only when you see that side you can understand how it took so long.

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4 hours ago, No2 said:

That's all very football manager. I haven't played that game in many a year, I wonder when you're tacking on an extension in that game do you need to consider the various obstacles we had to or do you just whack it on the overdraft and build it while the game loads overnight?

 

Hindsight is great but lets not forget just how complex this all was, there are still articles being written about how shabby the treatment was of the local residents, homes were torn down, the area left to shit. Nothing in that period was easy, the relationship with the council wasn't great, they were pushing for a cheaper shared option, plenty wanted a new shiny stadium.

 

I'm sure FSG remember 22,500 turning up at home to Northampton. It's easy for us to say build it and they will come but working with the actual numbers the facts where very different. We were shit, a shambles at a very level of the organisation, shit at making money, shit at recruiting, shit at appointing managers and added to this we had rivals with untold fortunes streaking ahead of us. So to say just build it and ignore everything else is disingenuous. The ARE should have started last year in my opinion but I feel they have earned the right to be trusted on decisions such as this. 

 

I'm 33 years watching the reds, the team we have now is the best in that period, we're brilliant. Below is the team that played and lost to Blackpool at Anfield 3 days before FSG bought the club. That side below would be in with a great shot of being the worst side I've seen in 33 years. Some perspective is needed.

P Reina 
G Johnson
S Kyrgiakos 
M Skrtel
J Carragher
C Poulsen 
R Meireles
D Kuyt
S Gerrard (c)
J Cole 
F Torres 
Substitutes
B Jones
M Jovanovic 
M Rodriguez 
L Leiva
D Ngog 
J Spearing
M Kelly

Honestly, I could bother to respond for that but I won't. You are in the position that it doesn't matter what happens as long as things are good right now in this minute on the pitch. That's fine and it's your prerogative, personally I'd like them to actually spend what we make instead of hording it like fucking Scrooge and I'd like them to deliver on the one promise they made when they bought a business in distress and told us they would under promise and over deliver. We just have to agree to disagree. 

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It's not as if fans are demanding us spending a fortune. We just need one or two quality addition to freshen up the squad and cover injuries. Not doing this negligent and not giving Jürgen the support he requires for sustainable success.

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1 hour ago, Elite said:

It's not as if fans are demanding us spending a fortune. We just need one or two quality addition to freshen up the squad and cover injuries. Not doing this negligent and not giving Jürgen the support he requires for sustainable success.

Exactly what a lot of us want but any criticism of the owners, even if it is objective and also takes into account what good they have done you get labelled a spoilt brat or wanting an Arab state to take over. 

 

One or two players and a long term plan is not unreasonable as you say. 

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24 minutes ago, Doctor Troy said:

Exactly what a lot of us want but any criticism of the owners, even if it is objective and also takes into account what good they have done you get labelled a spoilt brat or wanting an Arab state to take over. 

 

One or two players and a long term plan is not unreasonable as you say. 

More to the point I think Jurgen has earnt the right to a couple of players no questions asked by the owners

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6 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Just about sums FSG up that they've even managed to ruin us being champions 

Hahahahaha! ‘ruin us being champions’

ye when hendo lifts the league title above his head next week after 30 years ill be looking at and moaning about how FSG have ruined the moment for me.

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15 hours ago, BeefStroganoff said:

More to the point I think Jurgen has earnt the right to a couple of players no questions asked by the owners

This is the crux here. Klopp has transformed the playing side of the club and we are obviously going to sell or move on a few players therefore Jurgen deserves that money and a bit extra just to freshen up the squad. He's earned that.

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30 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

This is the crux here. Klopp has transformed the playing side of the club and we are obviously going to sell or move on a few players therefore Jurgen deserves that money and a bit extra just to freshen up the squad. He's earned that.

The crux of the issue here is we had no money to spend in a summer after winning the champions League, getting the most premier league prize money despite finishing 2nd and only spending the coutinho money the season before. They were never going to spend a penny once this lockdown happened, because their record shows they'd have not spent without selling anyway. The worry for me is how long they will use covid as an excuse or how many players have to be sold or released from the wage bill before they'll consider spending again. My guess is we'll need to see 50m raised before we even get back to "sell to buy" and the squad will be reduced in the process to reduce operating costs. The lallana and clyne wages will just reduce the wage bill and bank us the money not using furlough has cost the club. 

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There's 5 or 6 players on decent money who barely contribute to the first team. 

 

Lovren, Origi, Shaqiri and Chamberlain combined earn over 350 grand a week. 

 

If Wijnaldum doesnt want to sign a new contract that's 75 grand as well. If Milner goes back to Leeds when they get promoted he's on 160 grand a week.

 

Lallana and Clyne going reduced the wage bill by almost 200 grand. Fucking Karius is shite and earns 25 grand a week!

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7 minutes ago, Doctor Troy said:

There's 5 or 6 players on decent money who barely contribute to the first team. 

 

Lovren, Origi, Shaqiri and Chamberlain combined earn over 350 grand a week. 

 

If Wijnaldum doesnt want to sign a new contract that's 75 grand as well. If Milner goes back to Leeds when they get promoted he's on 160 grand a week.

 

Lallana and Clyne going reduced the wage bill by almost 200 grand. Fucking Karius is shite and earns 25 grand a week!

I take your point, but half of them would need replacing if they left as they played loads of games.   I think that outside of the kids already there, no new incomings will be happening.

 

We already have a small squad 

 

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