School holidays could be shortened

[Hand Shandy]

 

My mate's a teacher and is of the genuine opinion that the Tories want to show schools in as bad a light as possible so they could open them up to be 'rescued' by the private sector, he mentioned some changes to scoring and Ofsted etc which I didn't entirely follow.

 

A bit like nurses and the NHS you mean?

[Brodie]

My mate's a teacher and is of the genuine opinion that the Tories want to show schools in as bad a light as possible so they could open them up to be 'rescued' by the private sector, he mentioned some changes to scoring and Ofsted etc which I didn't entirely follow.

 

To over simplify the changes in ofsted - I've been teaching for 3 years and worked in 2 inner city schools in Liverpool, whose students come from very deprived areas. The standard of teaching, ethos, disclipline, safeguarding, results, support in both schools are almost identical. So much so that it made my transition from one to the other really easy.

 

School 1 Ofsted inspection last year using old criteria graded them oustanding. School 2 inspection this year using new criteria - graded Good.

 

In my opinion there is nothing to choose between the schools, and both do everything they can to assist, develop and model the students. The only difference between them is the criteria they are graded against, and oustanding school is now good, and as such it is easier to show just about any school in a worse light.

[melons]

Where does it stop though ? I know they won't be losing holidays, but that will be next if they don't kick up a stink.

Out of all the holidays they get, my wife spends a larger proportion of the summer holidays than any other working, be that preparing the class room, lesson plans or 'new learning objectives'. She is on 'proper holiday' for maybe 2-3 weeks. I'm not saying she is the norm (she is ofsted rated outstanding), but the half terms are more a 'holiday' than the summer one.

 

I would personally like it if they changed the holidays as we may be able to get a reasonabley priced holiday abroad instead of the usual scandelous scenario.

 

Your final point is speculative and innaccurate if anything the opposite of what happens, the more the teacher knows the kid, the more likely they are to be willing to help / teach (proper scumbags aside).

 

 

 

Spot on.

If thats so adding a week on to each wouldn't be a massive loss, would it? (that sounds more bitchy then i intend, sorry) I would like it if most councils implemented their own holiday system. I live in North Wales, the areas income relies heavily on tourism as a result employers don't let staff have leave over the summer, schools are quite accommodating on allowing time off for holidays providing attendance is at an acceptable level anyway.

 

 

As i've said, i support their decision to strike over it if they so wish. I do wonder where things stop, and i agree that they have a right to say no at what they see as unacceptable.

 

 

AS for the latter, I live on a shit hole council estate, next door but one was busted for dealing the other day, the lad over the road jovial shouted about that he has no need to work, he makes enough money dealing, this estate and the catchment schools are dealing with the proper scumbags you put aside. Very few, if any will escape the cycle of poverty they're in, I'll not be crediting teachers for the few that do, because the second they know the kids address and the kid plays up, a judgement has already been made.

 

I know some quality teachers, my kids go to the catchment school and I can point out what teachers actually love their job and what ones don't. Not all are in it for a vocation.

 

For all the parents on here moaning - just another thought to add to this.

 

Four week summer holidays would mean the travel companies would increase the costs of a holiday in this period even more. And for those of you that take them on holiday during term time, the government are bringing in legislation that means schools will no longer have the ability to approve these holidays and you will be fined.

 

Piss of teachers by shortening summer holidays - Check

Raise debate which results in further devaluing of teaching as a profession in the publics perception - Check

Hit the public for extra taxes on overpriced holidays - Check

Hit the public with fines for taking kids on holiday when they can afford it - Check

 

Sounds like typical tory policy to me.

 

We're not moaning, we just don't see the issue with moving two of the weeks. We are able to separate all the comments you've listed. And if all authorities sorted out their own holiday system few would overlap and the holiday companies would only be able to hype up for a handful of weeks.

 

 

 

And thats the way it should be, with the school and community working as one together.

 

It could be argued that the changes the tories are bringing in are actually seeking confrontation with teachers, and the propaganda being spouted in the press about teachers, are helping make schools a scapegoat for the state of society today, as well as opening up the door for the government to private education. They have already said they are happy for free schools to make a profit, lets see how society looks with privatised education system.

 

No shit, vilify those you want to chew up and spit out and they've won half the battle.

 

I'm not overly arsed, it would suit me to spread them out, but thats neither here nor there, I will support the teachers if they choose to strike for it, I just think they need a better argument for it.

[a stoner]

Fuck em. Give em 4 weeks like the rest of us.

[Lee909]

I wish I had 4 weeks

You get 4 weeks if you average 5 days a week,averaging 4.6 days means we get 26 days a year.The fact we do a 12hr day and avg 56hrs a week means fuck all.We don't get bank holidays either

[Sugar Ape]

I wish I had 4 weeks

You get 4 weeks if you average 5 days a week,averaging 4.6 days means we get 26 days a year.The fact we do a 12hr day and avg 56hrs a week means fuck all.We don't get bank holidays either

 

Did you PM me yesterday Lee? I just got a blank message off you mate. Everyone should get a minimum of 4 weeks holiday, plus bank holidays, I just don't understand all the bitter people out there who want everyone else pulled down to their level ( not aimed at you Lee. )

 

If you cut the holidays along with the pension, pay and other benefits of teachers/civil servants they will be right to strike over it.

[Remmie]

People can get so bitter about teacher's holidays when it's the likes of me and the Bitch that should get the vitriol. We get our 3-4 weeks when the fuck we like, several times a year (well in theory!), not when every other teacher and brat in the country is free and therefore driving up flight/holiday prices.

 

Or you could try finding a decent job yourselves...

[Hand Shandy]

People can get so bitter about teacher's holidays when it's the likes of me and the Bitch that should get the vitriol. We get our 3-4 weeks when the fuck we like, several times a year (well in theory!), not when every other teacher and brat in the country is free and therefore driving up flight/holiday prices.

 

Or you could try finding a decent job yourselves...

 

I have to agree Remmie.

 

You and The Bitch are cunts, the pair of you.

[Yozzer]

Me ma worked at Ashfield Special school and she needed all the six weeks you could get after some of the fuckers who went there. As a kid there's nothing better than having six weeks at summer as the whole week consists of playing footy, going home to eat and then watch some footy with the occasional vacation thrown in.

[Guest The Chimp]

Did you PM me yesterday Lee? I just got a blank message off you mate. Everyone should get a minimum of 4 weeks holiday, plus bank holidays, I just don't understand all the bitter people out there who want everyone else pulled down to their level ( not aimed at you Lee. )

 

If you cut the holidays along with the pension, pay and other benefits of teachers/civil servants they will be right to strike over it.

 

I do mate and whilst I'm loathe to generalise, and appreciate that this won't be popular it's my honest opinion. It's because the country is full of people just like that. You notice it especially when you're away and go back. I don't think it's intentional or that people even recognise what snide, miserable, negative cunts they come across as. The car thread on here was a perfect example of this. Taking the piss out of people doing no harm simply to make others feel better about themselves/compare themselves favourably. How utterly pathetic is that when you really look at it? It's not funny or ironic it's just simply point scoring.

 

To be honest I'm fucking appalled that people I thought "got" what standing up for fellow workers against erosion of the rights meant, are so happy to stick the boot in. And people wonder why the country's fucked.

[Sugar Ape]

I do mate and whilst I'm loathe to generalise, and appreciate that this won't be popular it's my honest opinion. It's because the country is full of people just like that. You notice it especially when you're away and go back. I don't think it's intentional or that people even recognise what snide, miserable, negative cunts they come across as. The car thread on here was a perfect example of this. Taking the piss out of people doing no harm simply to make others feel better about themselves/compare themselves favourably. How utterly pathetic is that when you really look at it? It's not funny or ironic it's just simply point scoring.

 

To be honest I'm fucking appalled that people I thought "got" what standing up for fellow workers against erosion of the rights meant, are so happy to stick the boot in. And people wonder why the country's fucked.

 

Totally agree, not much more to add to that.

[Lee909]

 

Did you PM me yesterday Lee? I just got a blank message off you mate. Everyone should get a minimum of 4 weeks holiday, plus bank holidays, I just don't understand all the bitter people out there who want everyone else pulled down to their level ( not aimed at you Lee. )

 

If you cut the holidays along with the pension, pay and other benefits of teachers/civil servants they will be right to strike over it.

 

I sent the PM by accident while trying to delete old messages on my phone.

 

 

The holiday law is that if you work full time you get 4 weeks(20days) and bank holidays or 28 days without bank holidays.But that is if you work on average 5 days a week.We average 4.6 days a week but work more hours.Its a way out for companies to screw people as per normal.

Add that to the fact that we have to have a liscence to work in security.£220 for three years,it's not much but it's a joke,especially as it clearly states that the goverment take 60% of the liscence fee.

 

 

 

I don't begrudge the teachers there holidays,I think the change in term times would be good for people.I don't know what teachers do while the kids are off so I don't really comment.

[Section_31]

I do mate and whilst I'm loathe to generalise, and appreciate that this won't be popular it's my honest opinion. It's because the country is full of people just like that. You notice it especially when you're away and go back. I don't think it's intentional or that people even recognise what snide, miserable, negative cunts they come across as. The car thread on here was a perfect example of this. Taking the piss out of people doing no harm simply to make others feel better about themselves/compare themselves favourably. How utterly pathetic is that when you really look at it? It's not funny or ironic it's just simply point scoring.

 

To be honest I'm fucking appalled that people I thought "got" what standing up for fellow workers against erosion of the rights meant, are so happy to stick the boot in. And people wonder why the country's fucked.

 

It's the backwash of having been 'rewired' to be a consumer.

 

When someone joins the army, they are 'broken' and 'rebuilt'. All the things you take your sense of self-worth and confidence from, your looks, the way you talk, the things you are good at - get rubbished and shat on. But then the NCOs start praising you for being good at the things they value - i.e how well you shine your boots, how far you can run, how well you can shoot, until your confidence is back up again - but you're drawing that confidence from being a good soldier, not 'just' from being a good man.

 

It works the same with being a consumer. We've been 'broken', by various Governments and through their mouthpieces the media, into no longer valuing ourselves or others in terms other than wealth or looks, and you can see the damage of that fact everywhere. From young, angry men demanding 'respect' which they earn by being aggressive, through having a good looking bird, the right clothes or the right car, to a whole generation of girls who only value themselevs by how sexually attractive they are, to people who drink their way into oblivion at the weekend because they don't have the life they're told they should value, to kids who value their phones more than they do their friends.

 

We are no longer people, no longer social, we're consumers. Batteries for a giant engine. Those at the top know it, which is why we'll never have an honest discussion about why the English riots happened, why teachers are now essentially spending most of their time doing crowd control, why nurses are happy to leave your nan crying in her own shit, why politicians see no issue with using taxpayers' cash to touch up their house so they can sell it on.

 

Duty, morals, compassion, make way for designer glasses and 'checking in' at YoSushi.

 

It all needs destroying and starting again, I see no other way back.

[AVEEZ]

I do mate and whilst I'm loathe to generalise, and appreciate that this won't be popular it's my honest opinion. It's because the country is full of people just like that. You notice it especially when you're away and go back. I don't think it's intentional or that people even recognise what snide, miserable, negative cunts they come across as. The car thread on here was a perfect example of this. Taking the piss out of people doing no harm simply to make others feel better about themselves/compare themselves favourably. How utterly pathetic is that when you really look at it? It's not funny or ironic it's just simply point scoring.

 

To be honest I'm fucking appalled that people I thought "got" what standing up for fellow workers against erosion of the rights meant, are so happy to stick the boot in. And people wonder why the country's fucked.

 

Wanting to make a change to the school term times is not an erosion of fellow workers rights, its an amendment. They are not proposing that they lose anything merely adapt to suit the changing needs of society.

 

It has nothing to do with being miserable or negative or point scoring and everything to do with understanding why! Why cant the term times be altered, because teachers say no - ok but WHY.

 

I want a good reason, ill health by not having a 6 week holiday - sorry I dont believe it, erosion of their employment package, no. Why cant we change the hols?

 

My comments re the nature of teaching are valid, these days, people go into teaching knowing the nature of the beast / children, they are likely to be toiling with day in day out, so there is no point complaining that its tiring or what ever because unless your a complete idiot, you knew that from the outset.

 

I fully support an employees right to stand up for themselves I know I would, but this is not an attack or a reduction in their benefits just a change.

[JER]

After 2 weeks of shelling out a fortune in snacks, cinema trips and day trips to London, I think school holidays should be abolished altogether. When McDonalds take over our schools no doubt they will sort this. Michael Gove is so pasty looking that I bet he hasn't taken a day off in 10 years.

 

[She Knows It]

Where does it stop though ? I know they won't be losing holidays, but that will be next if they don't kick up a stink.

 

So they should strike over a change that is completely reasonable and warranted, just in case at some future point they might have their holidays cut? I reckon they need to be a lot more careful in what they kick up a stink over. They'll lose public backing if they strike over this, and people won't give a shit in future when they do have a legitimate grievance.

 

I'm not knocking teachers. I know they work hard. Human nature will always be to believe the grass is always greener on the other side, and people will always look at teachers and think "I work as hard as them but only get 3 weeks holiday a year and less money". Teachers will look at other professions and think "They all only work 9-5. Their job is a piece of piss and far less stressful".

 

The truth is that millions of people work hard, put in 60 hrs+ a week in a stressful job for no overtime, and get fewer holidays than they'd like; or are forced to spend large chunks of their leave doing paperwork or catching up with work that you just don't have time to fit in during your normal working week. These millions of people aren't going to give too much support if teachers choose to strike over a couple of weeks of their holiday being shifted to a different month.

[Liverpool lad]

I do enjoy a thread where by Melons can shoehorn in complaints about children or women's problems. I am surprised she hasn't mentioned the CSA yet.

[Hooch]

It's the backwash of having been 'rewired' to be a consumer.

 

When someone joins the army, they are 'broken' and 'rebuilt'. All the things you take your sense of self-worth and confidence from, your looks, the way you talk, the things you are good at - get rubbished and shat on. But then the NCOs start praising you for being good at the things they value - i.e how well you shine your boots, how far you can run, how well you can shoot, until your confidence is back up again - but you're drawing that confidence from being a good soldier, not 'just' from being a good man.

 

It works the same with being a consumer. We've been 'broken', by various Governments and through their mouthpieces the media, into no longer valuing ourselves or others in terms other than wealth or looks, and you can see the damage of that fact everywhere. From young, angry men demanding 'respect' which they earn by being aggressive, through having a good looking bird, the right clothes or the right car, to a whole generation of girls who only value themselevs by how sexually attractive they are, to people who drink their way into oblivion at the weekend because they don't have the life they're told they should value, to kids who value their phones more than they do their friends.

 

We are no longer people, no longer social, we're consumers. Batteries for a giant engine. Those at the top know it, which is why we'll never have an honest discussion about why the English riots happened, why teachers are now essentially spending most of their time doing crowd control, why nurses are happy to leave your nan crying in her own shit, why politicians see no issue with using taxpayers' cash to touch up their house so they can sell it on.

 

Duty, morals, compassion, make way for designer glasses and 'checking in' at YoSushi. It all needs destroying and starting again, I see no other way back.

 

Excellent.

[Fugitive]

People who failed to get their desired job due to just not being good enough.... Teach.

[melons]

I do enjoy a thread where by Melons can shoehorn in complaints about children or women's problems. I am surprised she hasn't mentioned the CSA yet.

 

*Contemplates sending LL a PM with the most horrific descriptive tales of my uterus*

[Sugar Ape]

*Contemplates sending LL a PM with the most horrific descriptive tales of my uterus*

 

* Has a Vietnam style flashback and retreats from the thread *

[Remmie]

*Contemplates sending LL a PM with the most horrific descriptive tales of my uterus*

*fapps*

[TheResonator]

The problem, as I see it, isn't principally in the alteration of school holidays. If you had a government that cared about civic duty, I doubt that there would be nearly as much outcry. The problem is that this government is constantly attacking teachers and schools, and so the teachers have no real alternative but to fight them on everything. They're in the midst of an ideological war.

 

There is obviously a lot of resentment directed at the idea that teaching is more difficult than any other profession. Teaching is not just imparting knowledge. It involves pastoral care, it involves administering discipline in a system which continually erodes the power of teachers, it is constant assessment, observation, emphasis on results... it's trying to reach kids who come from broken families, it's trying to manage the destructive elements in a classroom whilst offering something valuable for those who want to learn to take away. It is trying to do all of this in a system which isn't just patently not working, but which is increasingly being made more difficult to operate in with governmental changes.

 

The people who are doing this job -- who probably spend as much or more time with the kids these days than a lot of their own parents -- are increasingly coming in for tabloid and community criticism. People will say that there are those who are just 'in it for the holidays'. Bullshit. Try being a teacher. I've been teaching English abroad for just over a year now. I love teaching -- but it's hard. The rapport with the kids is good. I work in a specialist school where most of the children are driven to succeed, we have powers to discipline the children, and in which our boss will back us in the decisions we make, as long as our judgement is sound. All that notwithstanding, I've still had sleepless nights and sleepless weeks, or walked into classrooms with my stomach turning over. I've still seen colleagues crying in the teachers office, had to deal with problem students and problem classes, broken up fights, even known teachers to be attacked by students as young as seven or eight. But, like I said, I love the job, so it's all worth it.

 

Nonetheless, I would never consider teaching in England. I don't want to walk into classrooms in which students don't care and I'm virtually powerless to punish them. I don't want to deal, day on day, with kids that have no respect for authority. I don't want to deal with a system that will hang me out to dry at the first whiff of trouble. For me, the holidays don't matter and the pay doesn't matter. If I'm going into a classroom and I don't feel that the basic infrastructure to let me teach is there, I have nothing.

 

Some of my best friends are teachers, and it astonishes me that it is a life they chose. I have to say, too, that I thoroughly admire them for putting up with all the shit they have to in order to go in and get the job done on a day to day basis. So if they have more holidays than me, I don't begrudge them that.

 

The real issue, of course, is more or less as Section put it. What everybody forgets in the clamour over teachers holidays or doctors pensions is that these are the people who provide the services that we all use. The idea behind giving a good deal to these people is that that is where we want to most talented people to go: into services which help the community. We want hospitals where the brightest look after us and our loved ones, and schools where teachers give our kids the finest education they can. If you can't pay what a bank can then you offer other incentives to get it there.

 

Just as when the banking scandal broke, though, focus is being shifted on to the people who ought to be at the hearts of our communities. It was the politicians first with expenses claims, then doctors and their gold-plated pensions, now teachers holidays. Don't worry about our economy that's been absolutely fucking decimated by the private sector, it's the civil service that's the problem. And I'm not saying that the expenses debacle wasn't nauseating -- it's just a little suspicious that it all broke right when we should've been ruminating on the vast affluence of the pricks that sent us into recession.

 

Teachers are not the enemy. They're not in it for themselves. There is no good reason to do that job except for a love of your subject, a love of teaching, and a desire to make a difference. You better have them all in abundance or you don't have a chance of making it.

 

Give the teachers their perks. If you don't have time to look after you kids, lobby the private sector to give you more holiday. That's how it ought to be.

[md1892]

So they should strike over a change that is completely reasonable and warranted, just in case at some future point they might have their holidays cut? I reckon they need to be a lot more careful in what they kick up a stink over. They'll lose public backing if they strike over this, and people won't give a shit in future when they do have a legitimate grievance.

 

And here's the response put far more eloquently than i could muster

 

The problem, as I see it, isn't principally in the alteration of school holidays. If you had a government that cared about civic duty, I doubt that there would be nearly as much outcry. The problem is that this government is constantly attacking teachers and schools, and so the teachers have no real alternative but to fight them on everything. They're in the midst of an ideological war.

 

There is obviously a lot of resentment directed at the idea that teaching is more difficult than any other profession. Teaching is not just imparting knowledge. It involves pastoral care, it involves administering discipline in a system which continually erodes the power of teachers, it is constant assessment, observation, emphasis on results... it's trying to reach kids who come from broken families, it's trying to manage the destructive elements in a classroom whilst offering something valuable for those who want to learn to take away. It is trying to do all of this in a system which isn't just patently not working, but which is increasingly being made more difficult to operate in with governmental changes.

 

The people who are doing this job -- who probably spend as much or more time with the kids these days than a lot of their own parents -- are increasingly coming in for tabloid and community criticism. People will say that there are those who are just 'in it for the holidays'. Bullshit. Try being a teacher. I've been teaching English abroad for just over a year now. I love teaching -- but it's hard. The rapport with the kids is good. I work in a specialist school where most of the children are driven to succeed, we have powers to discipline the children, and in which our boss will back us in the decisions we make, as long as our judgement is sound. All that notwithstanding, I've still had sleepless nights and sleepless weeks, or walked into classrooms with my stomach turning over. I've still seen colleagues crying in the teachers office, had to deal with problem students and problem classes, broken up fights, even known teachers to be attacked by students as young as seven or eight. But, like I said, I love the job, so it's all worth it.

 

Nonetheless, I would never consider teaching in England. I don't want to walk into classrooms in which students don't care and I'm virtually powerless to punish them. I don't want to deal, day on day, with kids that have no respect for authority. I don't want to deal with a system that will hang me out to dry at the first whiff of trouble. For me, the holidays don't matter and the pay doesn't matter. If I'm going into a classroom and I don't feel that the basic infrastructure to let me teach is there, I have nothing.

 

Some of my best friends are teachers, and it astonishes me that it is a life they chose. I have to say, too, that I thoroughly admire them for putting up with all the shit they have to in order to go in and get the job done on a day to day basis. So if they have more holidays than me, I don't begrudge them that.

 

The real issue, of course, is more or less as Section put it. What everybody forgets in the clamour over teachers holidays or doctors pensions is that these are the people who provide the services that we all use. The idea behind giving a good deal to these people is that that is where we want to most talented people to go: into services which help the community. We want hospitals where the brightest look after us and our loved ones, and schools where teachers give our kids the finest education they can. If you can't pay what a bank can then you offer other incentives to get it there.

 

Just as when the banking scandal broke, though, focus is being shifted on to the people who ought to be at the hearts of our communities. It was the politicians first with expenses claims, then doctors and their gold-plated pensions, now teachers holidays. Don't worry about our economy that's been absolutely fucking decimated by the private sector, it's the civil service that's the problem. And I'm not saying that the expenses debacle wasn't nauseating -- it's just a little suspicious that it all broke right when we should've been ruminating on the vast affluence of the pricks that sent us into recession.

 

Teachers are not the enemy. They're not in it for themselves. There is no good reason to do that job except for a love of your subject, a love of teaching, and a desire to make a difference. You better have them all in abundance or you don't have a chance of making it.

 

Give the teachers their perks. If you don't have time to look after you kids, lobby the private sector to give you more holiday. That's how it ought to be.

 

 

Oh & Aveez, thanks for the revenge neg ! tsk tsk !:D

[Sut]

Great post, Resonator.