Kenny out

[Tom R]

Wenger's done a sterling job at that club, competing as fiercely as he has for the top positions in the league given the budget at his disposal. Criticism of Wenger is unwarranted.

 

 

 

Great stuff. And I suppose United are 'fucking SHIT'; that their ability to grind out so many results and likely finish 40 points ahead of us equally comes from coincidence rather than any defined ability.

 

As soon as you start attributing patterns established over twenty or thirty or fifty games to 'luck', you've lost the measure of your argument.

 

Woah, easy there sweet cheeks.

 

I haven't attributed this season's failings to "luck" at all.

 

I atrribute it to player apathy, bad finishing, gutless players and not respecting the opposition.

 

When you look at it objectively, in most games this season Kenny's tactics and set-ups have seen us completely dominate most games, create shed loads of chances and concede very few chances.

In terms of a manager's brief, I'd say that pretty much hits the mark.

 

It isn't Kenny who's been hitting countless posts instead of scoring goals. It isn't kenny ballooning open goals after a gift-wrapped chance is offered to him. And it isn't Kenny falling asleep and allowing the opposition to score from their only chane in a half of football.

 

So, I'm not blaming "luck", I'm blaming all of the above, and you can't really pin much of that on Kenny.

 

Or am I missing something?

[silverlining]

Exactly right.

 

We haven't been even remotely as bad as our league position suggests this season.

All this "the league doesn't lie" stuff is total bullshit. It lies all the time, and it's lying through its fucking teeth right now.

 

It was equally lying big time a few seasons ago when somehow we finished second yet were absolutely fucking SHIT in just about every single game I saw us play that season.

 

 

Right, so you think we've got a better team, and have played better this season than the season we came second?

 

Is that what you're saying? You're happier now than when we came second?

 

JUST FOR CLARITY: YOU'RE HAPPIER NOW, WHEN WE ARE SEVENTH, THAN WHEN WE CAME SECOND?

 

HAPPIER NOW, 8 POINTS BEHIND NEWCASTLE, AND TWO POINTS AHEAD OF SUNDERLAND AND NEWCASTLE, HAVING JUST BEEN BEATEN TWICE IN THE SPACE OF 4 DAYS BY THE TWO WORST CLUBS IN THE LEAGUE?

[Lee909]

It's a deep rooted problem for me.

We don't seem to regularly play with one formation that runs through the club.

The academy seem to play 4-2-3-1 right through the system and then full team seem to play some sort of 4-4-2 with no width on the right.Surely we should be playing the same system at every level.

I don't see any leaders on the pitch at all,Gerrard was always able to drag the team along and lead by example but IMO he is not that player anymore or at least can't be that player every week.The mentality of some of the players seems wrong,some seem to think that by getting paid vast sums and bought by us that they have made it.Were is the drive to be the best,to many seem to be mental midgets and not have the fight needed.Look at difference in Spearing to most of the players around him in midfield,probably the least talented of the bunch but is always looking for the ball and wants to win.If Henderson had that about him he would be a much better player.The less said about Downing on mentality the better.The players we have bought are not Liverpool players in a traditional sense,they allow themselves to be bullied and wilt under pressure.

 

We have got by for years on the back of great goal scorers but have nobody of that level to drag us out of shit results.Suarez as great as he is will never be a Torres,Judas,Fowler or Rush.

We lack pace right through the side and for me

 

If Agger is out the team has to defend in a completely different manner to accommodate Carra.Why Coates isn't getting games is beyond me,how will he adapt and become a better player without minutes on the field.He might be raw but it's not like the defender isn't making mistakes allready.Skrtel never looks the same player when paired with Carra,he goes into his shell and doesn't look as comfortably on the left side of the pair.

 

Some of the pieces are in the squad but we are a mess and mentally at least a long way from competing at the top table.

 

 

Not sure what we should be doing about the coaching side of things,Kenny is and always will be a legend but wether he is the right man for the next couple of years I'm not sure,I hope he is but he only has 2 years left on his deal and we are that far from realistically competing IMO,

We can't afford yet more years away from the top table.

[Guest the boy]

When you look at it objectively, in most games this season Kenny's tactics and set-ups have seen us completely dominate most games, create shed loads of chances and concede very few chances.

In terms of a manager's brief, I'd say that pretty much hits the mark.

 

I know what you're getting at, and I agree that its difficult to qualify the results of games in the first half of the season where our inability to score was almost supernatural. But from my point of view, the rot set in a while ago. My fear was always that we would go one of two ways; that we would start converting those chances, or otherwise become frustrated and mentally exhausted and lose that rhythm to our play.

 

I thought our performance at Villa in December was very promising, but we've been in decline since the 0-0 at Wigan. My concern is that since then, Kenny's shown no insight tactically in how to turn us around and rejuvenate the players mentally and physically. We were awful in the Cup final, and even in the games where we've at times performed well -- City in the cup, Arsenal in the league -- we've looked extremely fragile.

 

We're no longer making chances, not less converting them, and my biggest concern is that Kenny's shown no idea of how to change things.

 

I hold the issue of poor transfers quite separate; regardless of whether Kenny wanted Carroll and Downing, Commoli should not have negotiated those deals. I cannot blame FSG for not putting more money into the club when Commoli has ruined what has been invested so far. The loss of Suarez - which probably cost us at least a few points too - also came about from the rank incompetence of management at the club above Kenny's head.

[Tom R]

Right, so you think we've got a better team, and have played better this season than the season we came second?

 

Is that what you're saying? You're happier now than when we came second?

 

JUST FOR CLARITY: YOU'RE HAPPIER NOW, WHEN WE ARE SEVENTH, THAN WHEN WE CAME SECOND?

 

HAPPIER NOW, 8 POINTS BEHIND NEWCASTLE, AND TWO POINTS AHEAD OF SUNDERLAND AND NEWCASTLE, HAVING JUST BEEN BEATEN TWICE IN THE SPACE OF 4 DAYS BY THE TWO WORST CLUBS IN THE LEAGUE?

 

I'm not "happier".

 

I'm just stating that we've played far better overall this season than we did that season, so the league can and does lie.

[silverlining]

I'm not "happier".

 

I'm just stating that we've played far better overall this season than we did that season, so the league can and does lie.

 

Oh my fucking Christ.

[Colonol]

There have been many factors contributing to where we are in the league but to say the league lies is going a bit too far. All other teams have to deal with poor refereeing, not taking chances, injuries etc, etc. Liverpool are fast becoming a laughing stock and our fans filled with a hymn sheet of excuses.

 

The facts are that we should be doing a lot better than we are. We have had a key spine for years and were always looking to just add to it. Every year it seems we have been just looking for a striker and a decent winger to kicks us on. This year we had a chance to end the nightmare we had to endure. We had the money to make a real go of it, but we bought shite and a lot of people voiced these concerns. It wasn't rocket science to know that we were buying average players from average teams.

 

We have compounded the problem by playing this shite continually and sometimes out of position ( I refer to Henderson having to play out right). I think Henderson is a good player but we have destroyed him by playing him too much and on the right. To me that is bad management. We have allowed some players to become untouchable regardless of form.

 

Our problems can't be solely put on Kenny's shoulders but most of it can. Whoever identified the players we bought and then negotiated the deals for them is accountable for setting this club backwards considering the money we spent. If we needed someone to play right midfield why did we not just buy a player for that position, why buy Adam and Henderson?

 

Kenny needs to change things; this includes dropping Carra, resting Enrique, giving Doni a go, Playing Carroll more, Dropping Henderson (or when playing him play him centrally), Adam and Kuyt. Start giving Maxi, Sterling and Shelvey more time on the pitch.

 

There is an attitude at this club that needs to be addressed. There are far too many players that think their job is done when they put on the shirt. These players need a stern talking to and Kenny has to give it. If he can't and also fails to address the problems we all see then he is not up to the task.

 

His excuse making whether it be just for the cameras or not is wrong and his constant support of his system and team selection is stubborn.

 

I don't look for a manager to be flawless but look for the one that has his players give 100% and change things when his system isn't working. Kenny is not doing this now and that has me worried. I will judge Kenny like i would judge any other. Sentiment for me goes out the window if we need to progress.

[Whelan]

I'm not "happier".

 

I'm just stating that we've played far better overall this season than we did that season, so the league can and does lie.

 

I agree with you that we have played better than our results, but I think that was the case before the turn of the year.

 

But, you were not happy with Rafa which is why you couldn't really enjoy any of our performances, we were excellent that year, solid, tactically sound and towards the end of the season exciting.

 

The problem is that our current position isn't just down to the players, there is also a sense that the tactics are wrong and have been wrong for a long time and nothing seems to be improving. The only team with a worse conversion rate than us has just played us off the park!

 

Maybe instead of putting an arm around the players after they have yet again missed a number of chances, getting angry and demanding improvment (not expecting it) would have seen Kuyt's header against Stoke, Suarez against Tottenham, and Caroll's against QPR go in and win us 9 points instead of 2.

[Duff Man]

I don't even think we've played that well this season. Certainly no better than we did in 08/09. We're about where we should be in my opinion.

[Philbert]

I know what you're getting at, and I agree that its difficult to qualify the results of games in the first half of the season where our inability to score was almost supernatural. But from my point of view, the rot set in a while ago. My fear was always that we would go one of two ways; that we would start converting those chances, or otherwise become frustrated and mentally exhausted and lose that rhythm to our play.

 

I thought our performance at Villa in December was very promising, but we've been in decline since the 0-0 at Wigan. My concern is that since then, Kenny's shown no insight tactically in how to turn us around and rejuvenate the players mentally and physically. We were awful in the Cup final, and even in the games where we've at times performed well -- City in the cup, Arsenal in the league -- we've looked extremely fragile.

 

We're no longer making chances, not less converting them, and my biggest concern is that Kenny's shown no idea of how to change things.

 

I hold the issue of poor transfers quite separate; regardless of whether Kenny wanted Carroll and Downing, Commoli should not have negotiated those deals. I cannot blame FSG for not putting more money into the club when Commoli has ruined what has been invested so far. The loss of Suarez - which probably cost us at least a few points too - also came about from the rank incompetence of management at the club above Kenny's head.

 

Spot on, and that coincided with the announcement of Suarez's ban. Apart from the 3-1 at home to Newcastle, prem results following the Wigan game have been dire. Maybe the fall-out from Suarez-gate has been more damaging than we ever appreciated? Who knows how much of a toll it's taken on morale? Just a thought...

[Jairzinho]

We were obviously much better in 2009. We're unlikely to get within 30 points of that season.

[piscinin]

We've played more attacking than our results. Not better.

[xerxes]

I'm just stating that we've played far better overall this season than we did that season, so the league can and does lie.

The League after 30 games does not lie. It tells you how 20 performing teams have performed in terms of wins, defeats, draws, goals scored and conceded - fact.

 

Now if you want to argue that you have your own league about aspects of our performance which exclude those criteria - fine. But no points or prize money are awarded.

 

The danger is that the players, not simply the fans, believe this. The Forest team that got relegated played well - and have never seen the PL again.West Ham specialise in this as an art form.

 

Some confuse ability and skill with winning. The final putt at Augusta, championship point at Wimbledon, is about winning, a great drive at the third, or a love game in your favour earlier on respectively, whilst nice and creditable and enjoyable and praiseworthy, is not the same. And somewhere along the line this "losing" mentality has crept inot the club becuase it feels better to say that although we lost, we won really.

[Guest TK-421]

Better football than 2009? Comedy gold that is.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

I'm not "happier".

 

I'm just stating that we've played far better overall this season than we did that season, so the league can and does lie.

 

That was the season we beat Chelsea at Stamford bridge, beat Everton at Goodison, beat Real madrid 5-0 over the two legs and beat the mancs 4-1, we played some fantastic footy that season Tom.

[TheDrowningMan]

This thread, in a nutshell, proves exactly why we cannot afford to not gently relieve Kenny of the manager's job if we don't see an immediate and significant improvement. The delusion sets in quickly; I mean, we already have people claiming that we're playing better football than 08-09? That's astonishing. One of those teams would have a real shot at winning the league this season, the other is closer quality wise to Steve Kean's Blackburn Rovers than Wenger's Arsenal and has a real struggle on its hands to keep hold of a top 10 berth

[dickie mint]

There have been many factors contributing to where we are in the league but to say the league lies is going a bit too far. All other teams have to deal with poor refereeing, not taking chances, injuries etc, etc. Liverpool are fast becoming a laughing stock and our fans filled with a hymn sheet of excuses.

 

The facts are that we should be doing a lot better than we are. We have had a key spine for years and were always looking to just add to it. Every year it seems we have been just looking for a striker and a decent winger to kicks us on. This year we had a chance to end the nightmare we had to endure. We had the money to make a real go of it, but we bought shite and a lot of people voiced these concerns. It wasn't rocket science to know that we were buying average players from average teams.

 

We have compounded the problem by playing this shite continually and sometimes out of position ( I refer to Henderson having to play out right). I think Henderson is a good player but we have destroyed him by playing him too much and on the right. To me that is bad management. We have allowed some players to become untouchable regardless of form.

 

Our problems can't be solely put on Kenny's shoulders but most of it can. Whoever identified the players we bought and then negotiated the deals for them is accountable for setting this club backwards considering the money we spent. If we needed someone to play right midfield why did we not just buy a player for that position, why buy Adam and Henderson?

 

Kenny needs to change things; this includes dropping Carra, resting Enrique, giving Doni a go, Playing Carroll more, Dropping Henderson (or when playing him play him centrally), Adam and Kuyt. Start giving Maxi, Sterling and Shelvey more time on the pitch.

 

There is an attitude at this club that needs to be addressed. There are far too many players that think their job is done when they put on the shirt. These players need a stern talking to and Kenny has to give it. If he can't and also fails to address the problems we all see then he is not up to the task.

 

His excuse making whether it be just for the cameras or not is wrong and his constant support of his system and team selection is stubborn.

 

I don't look for a manager to be flawless but look for the one that has his players give 100% and change things when his system isn't working. Kenny is not doing this now and that has me worried. I will judge Kenny like i would judge any other. Sentiment for me goes out the window if we need to progress.

 

 

Spot on.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Exactly right.

 

We haven't been even remotely as bad as our league position suggests this season.

All this "the league doesn't lie" stuff is total bullshit. It lies all the time, and it's lying through its fucking teeth right now.

 

It was equally lying big time a few seasons ago when somehow we finished second yet were absolutely fucking SHIT in just about every single game I saw us play that season.

 

We seem to have had as much bad luck as we had unbelievably good luck that season. What we do lack now, though, that we had then, was steel an determination from the players. There isn't a hope in hell that 2009 team would have lost a two goal lead to QPR. But how the hell you can blame Kenny for that is beyond me....

 

Overall, putting the last fuve games or so aside, we've actually played really, really well. Tactically at times Kenny has gotten it spot on, and bad finishing, lack of respect for the opposition and general lapses in concentration are what have cost us.

 

I struggle to pin any of that on the manager.

 

I think he's done quite well with what he's got and if the players had stepped up a bit more when we were playing brilliantly and drawing games, then we would have been right in amongst the top four now and these recent losses wouldn't be as hurtful as they are: look at Spurs - their recent form has been even worse than ours! But because they've done the business earlier on, they're still looking like they could do ok this season.

 

Kenny deserves another season at the very least, but not because he's Kenny Dalglish, but because overall he's actually done quite well.

His job is to get the formation right and have the team prepared well for match days, and mostly we've done that and battered teams and not got the result we deserve, and that's down to player's decision making, not the manager's!

 

Some of our players need to take a good hard look at themselves, and Kenny needs to be shipping some of them out as soon as the transfer window opens.

 

Its funny that this forum absolutely rips apart any poster who suggests we're shit, WHEN WE'RE SHIT, whilst those ripping him apart are usually posters like this...

 

How fucking deluded can you be? Seriously?

 

Funnily enough, I came across our 08-09 season review on youtube last night and it made me utterly depressed. If only the mongs in our support (one of them being you) didn't hound out Rafa we wouldn't be scared of Everton right now. The Liverpool I watched that season filled me with pride. I watch Jordan Henderson stroll out on the pitch shitting out of tackles and dispair.

 

Aside from a handful of games (five, maybe) we've played average/shite football all season. The league table does not lie, in fact it perfectly represents our season so far. In 08/09, it perfectly represented that Man Utd were able to grind out a couple more results, and hence were the champions.

 

Kenny needs to sort it out, fucking quick. That means he needs to improve our results in these last 8 games. He also needs to stop telling us (through his interviews) that we're not shit, and giving us pathetic excuses. That is the reality of the situation. Stop fucking apologising for his and our performance this season. I love him, but in doing so all you are doing is disrespecting him and every other ambassador of this club, who fought for this club's success.

[Tom R]

The League after 30 games does not lie. It tells you how 20 performing teams have performed in terms of wins, defeats, draws, goals scored and conceded - fact.

 

Now if you want to argue that you have your own league about aspects of our performance which exclude those criteria - fine. But no points or prize money are awarded.

 

The danger is that the players, not simply the fans, believe this. The Forest team that got relegated played well - and have never seen the PL again.West Ham specialise in this as an art form.

 

Some confuse ability and skill with winning. The final putt at Augusta, championship point at Wimbledon, is about winning, a great drive at the third, or a love game in your favour earlier on respectively, whilst nice and creditable and enjoyable and praiseworthy, is not the same. And somewhere along the line this "losing" mentality has crept inot the club becuase it feels better to say that although we lost, we won really.

 

Listen, I agree FULLY with everything taht you are saying.

 

But whichever way you want to paint it, overall we have dominated most games this season, created shit load of chances, and overall defendedvery well (last 5 or 6 games aside!)

All of that is down to the way Kenny has drilled the team and set up the team.

 

I'm not saying it again, but it isn't Kenny who has then squandered all those chances and opportunities.

It also wasn't Kenny who went out of his way to derail our entire season with the whole Suaraz shambles, which has had a MASSIVE impact, I don't what anyone says.

 

I'd agree that overall the buck stops with the manager, and you could argue that bad finishing and making poor decisions at the sharp end of the pitch eventually also comes back to the manager, and I'd have to agree with that too I suppose.

But that can NOT be fixed overnight. And WHOEVER is in charge that problem with still be there.

 

It's a playing staff issue imo, not a management one.

 

Even if we had Paisley, Shankly, Ferguson, Stein, Trapatonni and Mourinho all managing us at the same time it still wouldn't make Suarez, Caroll, Downing et al in to a goal scoring machine overnight, would it?!

 

It needs time, so give him time and all stop fucking whingeing.

[goatboy59]

If only the mongs in our support (one of them being you) didn't hound out Rafa we wouldn't be scared of Everton right now.

 

The Everton that got 2 1-1's and a 1-0 against us in 2009?

 

And that we've just completed a league double over in 11/12?

 

That Everton?

[WaltonRed]

see this is the crux of the problem, those who now want Kenny out, will mostly to a man want Rafa back

[Tom R]

That was the season we beat Chelsea at Stamford bridge, beat Everton at Goodison, beat Real madrid 5-0 over the two legs and beat the mancs 4-1, we played some fantastic footy that season Tom.

 

From March onwards we did, yeah.

 

Up until then it was some of the most turgid, shitty football I've ever had the misfortune to pay to watch.

We utterly stank.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

French glasseye is not making very good points, it has to be said.

[Jairzinho]

And WHOEVER is in charge that problem with still be there.

 

It's a playing staff issue imo, not a management one.

 

Even if we had Paisley, Shankly, Ferguson, Stein, Trapatonni and Mourinho all managing us at the same time it still wouldn't make Suarez, Caroll, Downing et al in to a goal scoring machine overnight, would it?!

 

I'm not advocating sacking Dalglish, he certainly deserves time to sort this mess out, but he's bought a lot of these players. So he is responsible for us not taking chances. We've signed shithouses. Players simply not up to performing for Liverpool.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

The Everton that got 2 1-1's and a 1-0 against us in 2009?

 

And that we've just completed a league double over in 11/12?

 

That Everton?

 

Wahay, we beat Evertons B team this season!

 

No mate, the Everton that is two points behind us and in better form right now, and the Everton who were so far behind us in '09 that I can't even be arsed to look up by what margin.

 

You keep worrying about individual results against them NOTHING cunts, go ahead. Let me know when they start handing out trophies for beating them. Until then i'd be more interested in making a serious challenge for the league title, or at least some progress towards that point.