John Terry

[xerxes]

I disagree.

 

If there was no bias and the same standards were used as a court of law then there would be no case to answer.Suarez was stitched up as soon as the game was over and nothing was ever going to change.No court in any democratic country has a 99.5% conviction rate.

 

Vlad, I don't want to take this thread off topic, as it has been done to death.

 

But to answer your specific points. An FA Tribunal is not a Court of Law, it is part of a sporting association of which we are voluntary members, whose rules we help to set,approve, and agree to be bound by. In those situations some you win, some you lose, for the greater good. I have no time for the FA, they are an inept shower. This time around though they were fortunate to be confronted with an even greater inept shower - our so called "team."

 

Suarez(and Comolli) convicted himself by his own evidence of the specific offence he was found guilty of.LFC's handling of it was a shambles. Suarez, a foreign national put his faith in the Club and was badly let down by the conviction.No wonder Ayre has been keeping a very low profile ever since.

 

The Tribunal's rules are quite different to a Court of Law. See the FA's excellent, and transparent website.No comparison whatsoever can be drawn from the conviction rates.The processes are quite different.

 

I am as irritated as anyone by the whole Suarez affair, but the Club has been very happy to let the fans vent our anger at the FA, whilst gross incompetence within our administration has been ignored.

 

On topic. It was an option for us to offer "no evidence" on the basis that the hearing process could prejudice a subsequent criminal charge, and call the FA's bluff. But we chose not to do it. Terry is in some ways fortunate that Ferdinand pressed a complaint.,

 

I think that any football related FA charge which has a criminal dimension should be heard in the first instance by a criminal court. To describe our response as "leaden footed" is generous.

[ben48]

What a disgrace.

As someone else said, it's almost funny.

Almost.

 

It would be so easy to walk away from football now.

Its bent beyond belief.

 

I`ve supported Liverpool since i was a boy (1st game 1958) and sadly i tend to agree with you, Luis will come back, get kicked to fuck, no protection,

the club won`t complain, scared of more trouble. It is totally corrupt, its got

out of hand, but I won`t walk away because i`m so angry about it!.

[goatboy59]

Twitter

 

Genuine beliefs?

 

Or realised he'd look an awful twat if he said anything else?

[goatboy59]

On 9 July, eight days after the final of Euro 2012, John Terry will face trial on a charge, which he denies, of a racially aggravated public order offence. Also on trial, in effect, will be the Football Association's judgment in how they handle this unfortunate set of circumstances.

 

Whatever they choose to do the FA will be criticised, whatever the outcome of Terry's trial. If they choose to allow Fabio Capello to make the decision, they will be accused of weakness and of seeking to shift the blame. If they decide for the Italian, they will be said to have usurped his authority. If Terry remains as captain, regardless of who takes the decision there will be criticism for ignoring the seriousness of the charge. If Terry is removed from the squad, they will be lambasted for undermining the principle of someone being innocent unless proven guilty. If Terry is kept in the squad but replaced as captain, this will be portrayed as an unsatisfactory compromise that is the worst of both worlds.

 

Employers do take action without prejudging cases. On Saturday, four News International journalists with differing but high levels of responsibility at the Sun were arrested. They were not charged, but they were suspended on full pay. It is not a pleasant situation in which to be but limits the material damage. The problem for the FA is that playing for and captaining England are not ordinary jobs.

 

Despite the well-documented reports of associates of Terry exploiting his status - apparently without his knowledge - for financial gain, neither representing nor leading the national team is about the money. Or at least it shouldn't be. Given the public profile, it is impossible to mitigate the damage that such a charge does to an individual's reputation and that any action by the FA or his club employer would have. Terry's presence on the pitch is conspicuous to millions in a way that a journalist's in an office is not; likewise any absence.

 

No one should doubt the difficulty of the decision raised. The FA do have other issues to consider, though.

 

The cases involving Luis Suarez and Terry have demonstrated that English football still has a racism problem - separate from any that may exist with those individuals. Both maintain their innocence; Terry has not been convicted of anything and the FA panel that found against Suarez did not use the burden of proof required in criminal cases. However, there have been high-profile instances of alleged or confirmed racism involving supporters of the players' clubs at and around matches, and more privately there has been appalling levels of racist abuse on Twitter and in letters sent to individuals who have spoken up.

 

Liverpool's responses in this matter are seen to have accidentally encouraged racists to break cover, while Chelsea fans have endorsed in song the sentiments Terry denies having expressed. Despite the FA's denials the England team drag around an unhealthy number of racists who will do likewise given half an excuse.

 

The damage done to Liverpool's reputation is plain, epitomised by their having to apologise for having a celebratory clip on their website that included a well-publicised alleged incident during their FA Cup win against Manchester United. Can the FA afford not do do all they can to avoid risking similar incidents, undoing further the stand they have taken in the 21st century, having done far too little in much of the 20th?

 

In present circumstances John Terry is not a suitable figure to lead his country. If he is acquitted in July then Capello's successor should be free to reinstate him but for now, in a very difficult position, the FA should take the decision out of the manager's hands and at the very least return Terry to the ranks.

 

Philip Cornwall

[s(k)aturation]

Vlad, I don't want to take this thread off topic, as it has been done to death.

 

But to answer your specific points. An FA Tribunal is not a Court of Law, it is part of a sporting association of which we are voluntary members, whose rules we help to set,approve, and agree to be bound by. In those situations some you win, some you lose, for the greater good. I have no time for the FA, they are an inept shower. This time around though they were fortunate to be confronted with an even greater inept shower - our so called "team."

 

Suarez(and Comolli) convicted himself by his own evidence of the specific offence he was found guilty of.LFC's handling of it was a shambles. Suarez, a foreign national put his faith in the Club and was badly let down by the conviction.No wonder Ayre has been keeping a very low profile ever since.

 

The Tribunal's rules are quite different to a Court of Law. See the FA's excellent, and transparent website.No comparison whatsoever can be drawn from the conviction rates.The processes are quite different.

 

I am as irritated as anyone by the whole Suarez affair, but the Club has been very happy to let the fans vent our anger at the FA, whilst gross incompetence within our administration has been ignored.

 

On topic. It was an option for us to offer "no evidence" on the basis that the hearing process could prejudice a subsequent criminal charge, and call the FA's bluff. But we chose not to do it. Terry is in some ways fortunate that Ferdinand pressed a complaint.,

 

I think that any football related FA charge which has a criminal dimension should be heard in the first instance by a criminal court. To describe our response as "leaden footed" is generous.

 

 

I'm not hanging the club out to dry, but as I've referenced before, a court of law is where Luis's case should have been taken by us if we were serious about clearing his name publicly.

 

I can only conclude that, privately, the club and Luis are comfortable with not having done that and accepting the absolute injustice of an FA ruling in the interests of not rocking boats. That it has left countless fans of the club, and on balance perhaps Luis himself, disaffected is something they have taken into account as an acceptable level of collateral damage I guess.

[ngogswilly]

Well in fairness to the courts. They said they were putting it back because of the euros and pre-season football etc...

 

And if they intend to get it out of the way in July it at least proves what they are saying makes sense. I was fully expecting them to end up doing it in August or September when the seasons back on anyway thus proving their reasoning to be bullshit. But if they do it in July their reasoning at least makes sense.

[clangers]

As has already been stated the FA acting as a professional body do not have to identify a standard of guilt to the same level as criminal conviction but rather can pass a verdict based up the 'balance of probability' as i recall their definition being.

 

What's beginning to piss me off particularly from the media is the if he's found not guilty in court therefore he must be found not guilty by the FA. Given that the FA had already started an inquiry prior to the police inquiry I assume that once the criminal case is complete irrespective of outcome the FA will understake the same level of investigation applying the same criteria which has been applied to Suarez?

 

What are the odds that the FA will brush this rapidly under carpet if Terry is found not guilty? More ridiculously, if the FA found him guilty post a non guilty court verdict we'd have to endure the likes of Holt and Co condemning the travesty of an FA charge.

[clangers]

Just to add that the idea that Terry should be anywhere near the England team let alone leading them is astonishing. It is perfectly reasonable for individuals facing legal or professional charges to be suspended from whatever role they undertake simply because of their compromised position. It does not imply guilt.

 

The idea that an England captain could potentially lead the brother of the victim of racial abuse he is charged with and other black players onto the pitch whilst facing criminal charges for racist abuse is beyond belief.

 

He really should have resigned by now but given the feral, selfish nature of the man that's pretty unlikely.

 

FIFA will be loving it.

[ngogswilly]

As has already been stated the FA acting as a professional body do not have to identify a standard of guilt to the same level as criminal conviction but rather can pass a verdict based up the 'balance of probability' as i recall their definition being.

 

What's beginning to piss me off particularly from the media is the if he's found not guilty in court therefore he must be found not guilty by the FA. Given that the FA had already started an inquiry prior to the police inquiry I assume that once the criminal case is complete irrespective of outcome the FA will understake the same level of investigation applying the same criteria which has been applied to Suarez?

 

What are the odds that the FA will brush this rapidly under carpet if Terry is found not guilty? More ridiculously, if the FA found him guilty post a non guilty court verdict we'd have to endure the likes of Holt and Co condemning the travesty of an FA charge.

 

Well I think it works out perfectly for them.

 

If hes found guilty they have an excuse to do whatever they need to.

 

If hes not found guilty they say its been dealt with.

 

The only scenario they face which wouldn't work well for them would be if hes found guilty and they don't impose some sort of ban themselves.

 

Which as stupid and biased as they have been, they surely couldn't be that bad. They probably could though and not worry about the media doing anything though. The media would probably back them up.

 

"Poor John has suffered enough in court, FA make right decision to leave him be"

[a stoner]

Line up the QPR team and let each one kick him hard in the nads and fine him £20K for being a cunt and £2500 for the offence and £100K for wasting everyones time with a not guilty plea.

Then the FA can have their turn and while he's on his ban send him to Brooklyn with a sign around his neck saying "I'm a racist cunt".

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

So why is Harry Redknapp up in court at the moment? Surley that is affecting his team, His training etc! no?

 

 

 

I very very ever speak out about people on here but you are an absolute whopper. Even if it was a joke its hardly funny and a idiotic thing to say.

Redknapps is a totally different case to Terrys.

 

Rednapp isnt using players as his witnesses,so as its only him he cant get it delayed.

 

Terry is using players as witnesses and more to the point,players from one team.

 

The FA if because of law or by covering there own arses over not charging Terry till after the police case,might really backfire on them.

 

Imagine if Terry is captain of England and somehow spawn there way to win the euros.

 

Terry gets charged by the police the FA would look total idiots to the rest of the world.

 

They have already ballsed up by not insisting mong cannot captain his country till his case and there investigation is over.

 

Infact if Terry is so convinced of his own non guilt imo he should say he even though innocent dosent think he should captain until its all sorted.

 

Doing that if he is found not guilty his media rating would sky rocket to a level that nothing would damage him again.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

So when will it be heard then? We have this season to finish up then. Then the Euros, Olympics if he can go to that(probably not), Pre season tours, friendlies etc... all of which the magistrates say they've taken into account and thats the reasoning for pushing it back. And all of which will most likely affect alot of said witnesses also.

 

I mean its almost going to be the new season before they can interview everyone anyway. And as you say who knows how long Witness statements can go on for.

 

Maybe they'll find time to squeeze it around the end of july/start of August but if they just end up having it next August/September doesn't the whole "we're busy argument" go out the window. They're all going to be back at the start of a season anyway.

 

Can you see how the logic of the argument to postpone it can be seen as strange?

 

Now if they get it out of the way in July then fair enough. That would make sense.

Sorry only just got back from hospital.

 

The date was given out with the story and its July.

 

Theres alot of things over these racist cases of his and Suarez that is just so fucking wrong its untrue.

 

When they said about Suarez case to be started straight away it was so obvious they had delayed starting it until, they new the police had started investigating if to charge Terry.

 

They wanted to know before announcing Suarez verdict if Terry was going to be charged,so as soon as they knew he was on the monday they announced Suarez verdict.

 

It was so obvious from the start if Terry was going to be hauled into court the n Suarez would be found guilty by them.

 

I still think if Terry wasnt being taken to court Suarez would not of been found guilty by the FA.

[ngogswilly]

Sorry only just got back from hospital.

 

The date was given out with the story and its July.

 

Theres alot of things over these racist cases of his and Suarez that is just so fucking wrong its untrue.

 

When they said about Suarez case to be started straight away it was so obvious they had delayed starting it until, they new the police had started investigating if to charge Terry.

 

They wanted to know before announcing Suarez verdict if Terry was going to be charged,so as soon as they knew he was on the monday they announced Suarez verdict.

 

It was so obvious from the start if Terry was going to be hauled into court the n Suarez would be found guilty by them.

 

I still think if Terry wasnt being taken to court Suarez would not of been found guilty by the FA.

 

Yeah it was obviously strange timing as you point out.

 

I think a lot of games have been played and will continue to get played.

 

What essentially pisses me off is I've seen how much the media and other influences have over how things in the world pan out. I think since this whole shit with Terry kicked off the media obviously havn't been able to comment on his case.

 

But many such as the likes of Ollie Holt have done their utmost to paint Terry in a positive light without mentioning the case. I think with the obvious intention of helping Terry in the public arena, as was the aim to make Suarez look terrible in the public arena.

[goatboy59]

The FA hoping the team will at least reach the semi finals and that Terry will lead his country into Warsaw.

 

[VladimirIlyich]

Vlad, I don't want to take this thread off topic, as it has been done to death.

 

But to answer your specific points. An FA Tribunal is not a Court of Law, it is part of a sporting association of which we are voluntary members, whose rules we help to set,approve, and agree to be bound by. In those situations some you win, some you lose, for the greater good. I have no time for the FA, they are an inept shower. This time around though they were fortunate to be confronted with an even greater inept shower - our so called "team."

 

Suarez(and Comolli) convicted himself by his own evidence of the specific offence he was found guilty of.LFC's handling of it was a shambles. Suarez, a foreign national put his faith in the Club and was badly let down by the conviction.No wonder Ayre has been keeping a very low profile ever since.

 

The Tribunal's rules are quite different to a Court of Law. See the FA's excellent, and transparent website.No comparison whatsoever can be drawn from the conviction rates.The processes are quite different.

 

I am as irritated as anyone by the whole Suarez affair, but the Club has been very happy to let the fans vent our anger at the FA, whilst gross incompetence within our administration has been ignored.

 

On topic. It was an option for us to offer "no evidence" on the basis that the hearing process could prejudice a subsequent criminal charge, and call the FA's bluff. But we chose not to do it. Terry is in some ways fortunate that Ferdinand pressed a complaint.,

 

I think that any football related FA charge which has a criminal dimension should be heard in the first instance by a criminal court. To describe our response as "leaden footed" is generous.

 

A bit pedantic I know but we are not really voluntary members as clubs must be affiliated to their national FA to be able to take part in UEFA and FIFA endorsed competitions.

 

It seems Terry has been allowed to try and conquer Poland, just like his hero.

[Trumo]

A bit pedantic I know but we are not really voluntary members as clubs must be affiliated to their national FA to be able to take part in UEFA and FIFA endorsed competitions.

 

It's all right. Xerxes raised the same point in one of the Suarez's threads, basically saying that all clubs signed up to the FA rules so must abide by them. Like you, I said pretty much exactly what you've pointed out above. If Liverpool didn't agree to abide by FA rules, then that would also exclude them from UEFA and FIFA club competitions, not just ones affiliated to the FA - which also includes the Premier League lest that point be missed. What would a club exist for if excluded from every competition? Hence, I agree that membership is not exactly voluntary, more compulsory.

[goatboy59]

Martin Samuel really does have two faces.

 

I always thought it was the one big fat one.

 

Shocking hypocrisy in the Mail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, really.

[TheHitman]

Any words from the worlds highest paid union rep Mr Taylor, surely he might have to add some words of moral wisdom on the matter.

 

After all the fake outrage and bandwagon jumping, there is no way those who have been extremely vocal can let big brave JT lead England is there!.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

The bigger picture over Terrys case for me is if he isnt found guilty by a court,then how are the FA going to handle there investigation.

 

The FA can find you guilty by a totally different way of there decision making to the way courts come to there conclusion.

 

But if a court dosent find him guilty of racist remarks how can the FA even on there way of reaching conclusions say that he is.

 

The ideal outcome for the FA over this is he is found guilty by the courts,then they can do likewise without a problem.

 

To go against a court saying he isnt guilty,the FA would get there arses sued by Terry I would imagine if they went against the courts not guilty verdict.

 

I would guess the FA to follow whatever the courts find him,even if they should be finding guilty by there rules.

[Newport]

Martin Samuel: Spare us from Strictly Come Racism | Mail Online

 

Spare us from Strictly Come RacismBy Martin Samuel

 

Last updated at 10:38 PM on 1st February 2012

 

Share

John Terry. Why doesn’t he just sod off? It would be so much more convenient that way.

So much easier for everybody if he would just accept that the verdict of the kangaroo courts is in, without the tiresome necessity of due legal process in a proper one.

Judged unfit to captain England in the grand court of Twitter, messageboards and radio vox pops, why doesn’t Terry just slink away and accept that nobody has the patience for a fair trial these days?

 

Flashpoint: John Terry is accused of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand

We want to vote now. We want to press the red button to interact. We have decided the England captain is the weakest link. Goodbye.

What a nuisance he is, with his talk of innocence and his stubborn refusal to stand down. He should just resign, safe in the knowledge nobody would read this as an admission of guilt. This is a civilised society, after all. We don’t presume. We don’t pre-judge. And we don’t involve ourselves in idle gossip. Ask Gary Speed’s family.

No, nobody would read anything into the news that the England captain had quit his job pending a trial for a racially aggravated public order offence. They wouldn’t speculate that new evidence had emerged making his position untenable. No smoke without fire, they certainly wouldn’t say.

July 9. How hearts must have sunk at the FA when they were tossed that little hand grenade from Court One. The District Judge, the aptly named Howard Riddle, presented Terry’s masters with a conundrum of fiendish complexity by delaying his case until after the European Championship.

 

Defence: George Carter-Stephenson QC (second right) leaves court

Interest: The was a big media presence at Westminster Magistrates Court

Terry could lift England’s first trophy since 1966 as the hero of a nation on July 1, and be branded a racist in Westminster Magistrates’ Court less than two weeks later; a horrible prospect.

The alternative, however, is to strip England’s captain of the greatest professional honour — for the second time in his career — on the back of something he might have done. Maybe. We’re looking into it.

We are told our multi-racial society will not accept such a prominent public figure being accused of racism; well then, our multi-racial society needs to grow up.

Accusations, we can handle. Accusations are dealt with fairly, then judgement is passed if guilty. To start passing sentence — and to lose the England captaincy is a sentence — on the basis of as yet unproven accusations is fundamentally unjust.

The FA have been dealt a devilish hand, but it is not their fault. They had almost completed their investigation into what passed between Terry and Anton Ferdinand when high-handedly ordered to wait for the police investigation.

 

In charge: Terry will keep hold of the England captaincy for Euro 2012

This moved at glacial speed, so an incident that took place in autumn 2011 will now be resolved in summer 2012.

There is the possibility that the FA will convene their own hearing before then — the ICC did against Pakistan’s spot- fixing cricketers before their criminal trial — but what if it found Terry had no case to answer? Instantly, the FA would be accused of expediency, of potentially sabotaging a police case for their own ends.

They could not win, unless they found Terry guilty and sated the baying mob.

Jason Roberts, who is busily playing up an average career in football — he is currently on loan at Reading from Blackburn Rovers — into a more rewarding one in the media, instantly announced via Twitter that Terry should not go to the European Championship at all, let alone as captain.

‘Believe me, the dressing room will be toxic,’ he said. Yet why should we believe him? Why should we believe anybody, without evidence?

 

Roberts knows no more about the politics of the England dressing room — he has won 22 caps, but for Grenada — than we do about the events at Loftus Road on October 23.

 

Allegation: Terry (right) and Ferdinand faced each other again in the FA Cup

We need hard facts, not vague implorations. We are going to find out the truth of this matter, but sometime after July 9. Sorry if that is vexatious.

 

Sorry if that does not suit the need for a nightly eviction. Maybe there is something on another channel that you can watch.

We have heard this all before around Terry. The dressing room was going to be toxic after the Wayne Bridge controversy, and when he was reinstated to replace Rio Ferdinand.

Now it will be poisoned again. Yet when Fabio Capello asked if any players had problems with Terry’s return as captain, he was met with silence.

 

When Capello asked the new young players which of the senior professionals took time out to welcome them and stayed in touch after international duty, Terry scored highly again.

The only way Capello will remove Terry is if he thinks the storm around him will adversely affect the focus of the squad. His decision will be pragmatic, not moral, because to replace Terry on moral grounds alone is to treat an accusation as proof of guilt.

 

And it would be convenient if that were the case. Very convenient for those with a finger on the red button.

But this is a man’s reputation and career at stake. It is not Strictly Come Racism.

 

Then onto:

Luis Suarez row - where does John W Henry stand? Martin Samuel | Mail Online

 

The production of a 115-page report which metaphorically took Liverpool’s case out at the knee was the only possible response to the aggressive campaign mounted by the club following Suarez’s eight-game ban.

Any impartial reading of the exhaustive detail therein would note its thoroughness. Picking at its weaknesses is an easy game when there is so much information to inspect.

-----

Instead, Suarez put out a statement on Tuesday night, which included the remarkable assertion: ‘I will carry out the suspension with the resignation of someone who hasn’t done anything wrong.’

So if he was found innocent, he would have been innocent; but if guilty, he is innocent, still. At the outset Suarez said the verdict would decide which of the parties had to apologise. Apparently, like much of the evidence, that stance has since changed.

-----

The reason the Suarez decision carried such impact was that it was plainly not taken lightly.

----

 

So, Suarez is not allowed by the Martin Samuel (Moral) High Court to declare his innocence even though most the accusations towards him still hasn't been proved after the "thorough report" which didn't prove anything but the fact that they couldn't find any other evidence than Evra's words and Suarez's admittance to using the word "negro" once.

 

And we must remember not to tarnish the reputation and career of big brave John Terry, the pride of England.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Infact if you go on there probability law, then even if found innocent by a court,Terry is already guilty by the FA laws of probability simply by the fact the police have him up in court.

 

The police wouldnt of pursued the case without there being any truth in the charge,so therefor the probability factor is cast iron 100%.

[KevieG]

I think we all know of the double standards being applied to the examination of both cases, but seeing fathead's 2 pieces there side by side there is still fucking mind blowing.

[ngogswilly]

Dear jesus I think Samuel's crossed the Rubicon with that one.

 

Basically any journalist that threw shit at Suarez for asking to be treated fairly and then pushes the "Poor Brave John" angle really is just admitting they are biased and not to be taken seriously.

 

Its the sort of shit that needs highlighting, badly.

[moof]

That article by Samuel is fucking hilarious

[s(k)aturation]

It seems Terry has been allowed to try and conquer Poland, just like his hero.

 

Ha. Spoken like a true Leninist. :yes: