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Faith and Religion


VladimirIlyich
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4 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

How about I just believe the polling?  I guess they approached more than you meet. Do you ask those questions of every Muslim you meet? 
 

And before the obvious is stated I know that Jews Christians etc share some of the same outdated views, another reason why I think religious people are a bit mental. I mean Westboro Baptist’s are hardly nice guys

Then you are equally wrong about Jews, Christians, etc, if you assume they are all "likely" to support abhorrent practices.

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9 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

That Trevor Philips hatchet-job was fundamentally flawed.  He deliberately surveyed only those areas where the proportion of the population who are Muslims are highest.  (These are places where most of the recently-arrived Muslim immigrants are to be found and where traditional, conservative Islamic attitudes are most likely to be normalised and reinforced, with less exposure to more mainstream "Western" influences to counter them.)  He then chose to extrapolate from that to all the Muslims throughout the UK, as if it were reasonable to do so.

 

9 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/12/over-40-percent-of-uk-muslims-support-aspects-of-sharia-law

A large minority of people who identify as members of a religion would like elements of their religion reflected in national laws.  This is not unusual or particularly worrying: after all, any traditional British patriot will tell you "this is a Christian country, with Christian laws!"  We've got 26 Bishops in our unelected legislature, for fuck's sake.  So before I get spooked by a shrinking minority of Muslims supporting "aspects" of Sharia law, I'd want to see which aspects they support.  (The report itself suggests that the respondents were thinking more about laws concerning stuff like divorce and financial disputes, rather than the horrific violence that the media like to focus on.)

 

I'm still waiting for the surveys that show that it would be reasonable for anyone to assume it's "likely" that a British Muslim would support homophobia, FGM, honour-killings or "Sharia law" (as it is widely portrayed in the media).

 

I'm sure Rico will be able to provide the links.

 

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37 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I didn’t write that did I? I said they can share some of the outdated views.  

Right.

 

If you meet a Christian or Jew, you'll assume they have "outdated views " - like, what, belief in God or something?

If you meet a Muslim, you'll assume it's likely that they support atrocities.

 

Do you see why people think you might have a specific problem with your attitude to Muslims?

 

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8 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I wonder what the difference in the homosexual bit would be for Christians, Jews or Hindus?  Got any figures?

 

That would be the methodologically sound approach: ask people's opinions, then break them down by religious belief.

 

Comparing Muslim attitudes to those of the general population doesn't really tell you anything specific about Muslims, compared to followers of other religions.

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1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

Atrocities? Where did I say that?  Not liking homosexuals is outdated, wanting laws based on religion is outdated. Evidenced by the fact all the theocracies in the world aren’t nice places to live. 
 

 

I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion.  I consider homophobia, FGM and honour killings (plus the hand-chopping, stoning malarkey that most British non-Muslims understand by the term "Sharia law") to be pretty fucking atrocious.  Each to their own, like.

 

Where are these surveys, then?

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1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Right.

 

If you meet a Christian or Jew, you'll assume they have "outdated views " - like, what, belief in God or something?

If you meet a Muslim, you'll assume it's likely that they support atrocities.

 

Do you see why people think you might have a specific problem with your attitude to Muslims?

 

Does anyone actually think that the next Muslim person they meet is likely to believe in FGM and honour killing?

 

I don't live in the UK, and perhaps things are different over there, but from here in Canada I can't say that notion has ever entered my head.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, polymerpunkah said:

Does anyone actually think that the next Muslim person they meet is likely to believe in FGM and honour killing?

 

I don't live in the UK, and perhaps things are different over there, but from here in Canada I can't say that notion has ever entered my head.

 

 

Are you aware of Yasmine Mohammed? She was in Canada.  Read her story. 

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1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion.  I consider homophobia, FGM and honour killings (plus the hand-chopping, stoning malarkey that most British non-Muslims understand by the term "Sharia law") to be pretty fucking atrocious.  Each to their own, like.

 

Where are these surveys, then?

Atrocious isn’t the same as atrocities though is it?  Half the people polled saying they don’t agree with homosexuality is awful but it’s not an atrocity. Ha ha ‘most British...’ not the enlightened ones like you. Fucking hell. 
 

Google them. But you won’t believe them so why bother. 

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9 minutes ago, polymerpunkah said:

Does anyone actually think that the next Muslim person they meet is likely to believe in FGM and honour killing?

 

Sadly, yes.

On 17/05/2020 at 09:30, Rico1304 said:

If someone tells me they are a Muslim it’s likely that they have a set of beliefs I don’t like. Homophobia, FGM, ‘honour’ killings, Sharia etc. That’s all backed up by research and surveys. It doesn’t mean I don’t like the person. 

(Still waiting for all that "research and surveys" malarkey.)

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Atrocious isn’t the same as atrocities though is it?  Half the people polled saying they don’t agree with homosexuality is awful but it’s not an atrocity. Ha ha ‘most British...’ not the enlightened ones like you. Fucking hell. 
 

Google them. But you won’t believe them so why bother. 

Why the fuck should I waste time looking for stuff that you say exists, but neither you nor your comrade are able to provide evidence of?

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5 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Why the fuck should I waste time looking for stuff that you say exists, but neither you nor your comrade are able to provide evidence of?

It’s funny that in the Trans thread the ‘search for yourself’ is perfectly valid.  Weird that isn’t it?  

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6 hours ago, skend04 said:

As atheism is increasing in the UK (majority viewpoint now I believe) so are the instances of homophobic and transphobic hate crimes. That's not a very pretty conclusion either. It's like, are people wankers whatever they do or don't believe??

I don’t believe there’s a correlation between homophobia/transphobia and atheism. The key driver of said hate crimes is probably the growing popularity of right wing politics in the UK...  also poor, under-educated people being fed bile from right wing papers like The Sun and The Daily Mail every single day. You all had the opportunity to elect a compassionate and caring leader in Jeremy Corbyn and yet you voted for Boris fucking Johnson!

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3 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s funny that in the Trans thread the ‘search for yourself’ is perfectly valid.  Weird that isn’t it?  

I told you what search terms I used to get swamped with a scientific consensus that there's more to sex than a binary world defined by gametes alone.

 

If you won't provide links to your surveys (which definitely exist, honest Guv), you can at least do what I did on that thread and give me some pointers for search terms to direct me to evidence that it's reasonable to assume that British Muslims are likely to support homophobia, FGM, honour-killings and Sharia Law.

 

Or, just admit that it's wrong to make those assumptions.

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2013 Pew Study on global acceptance of homosexuality 

 

2007 Gallup survey showed 61% of British Muslims think it should be illegal (up to 71% amongst young Muslims)

 

2009 Gallup poll showed none of 500 surveyed though it was ‘morally acceptable’. 
 

Ok? 

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39 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

2013 Pew Study on global acceptance of homosexuality 

Does that go into detail about attitudes of British Muslims?  The few sites I found linking to it didn't go into that much detail.

Quote

2007 Gallup survey showed 61% of British Muslims think it should be illegal (up to 71% amongst young Muslims)

 

Quote

2009 Gallup poll showed none of 500 surveyed though it was ‘morally acceptable’.  

That poll shows British Muslims as very conservative on all matters of sexual morality.  Not great.

(It also shows that 2% think that honour killings are morally acceptable.  How are you getting on with your survey evidence that any Muslim you meet would be "likely" to support that?)

 

Even the more recent poll of the most conservative Muslim communities (the one that Trevor Phillips extrapolated to all British Muslims) showed that about half of Muslims thought homosexuality should be illegal.  It's a massive leap from there to assume that any Muslim you meet is "likely" to be homophobic.

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38 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Does that go into detail about attitudes of British Muslims?  The few sites I found linking to it didn't go into that much detail.

 

That poll shows British Muslims as very conservative on all matters of sexual morality.  Not great.

(It also shows that 2% think that honour killings are morally acceptable.  How are you getting on with your survey evidence that any Muslim you meet would be "likely" to support that?)

 

Even the more recent poll of the most conservative Muslim communities (the one that Trevor Phillips extrapolated to all British Muslims) showed that about half of Muslims thought homosexuality should be illegal.  It's a massive leap from there to assume that any Muslim you meet is "likely" to be homophobic.

If over half think something (I’m being kind here) then it’s more likely than not. 

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Just now, Rico1304 said:

If over half think something (I’m being kind here) then it’s more likely than not. 

That's a big "if".  Over half of the Muslims in the most conservative/traditional communities responded that way to the survey that Phillips falsely extrapolated to the half of British Muslims who live in more mixed communities.

 

So, the homophobia assumption is more than a little debatable.

 

How are you getting on with evidence of support for FGM, honour killings and Sharia law?

 

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