Can this still be a good season?

[manwiththestick]

If we'd have drawn against Arsenal, Stoke and Spurs most would view that as okay as they are usually for us, three tough away games. If that had happened we'd still be on the same points we are now.

 

Sorry, that's the best i can come up with; i'm trying to be glass half full but it was fucking woeful. Felt sorry for Coates, not the best game to make your debut, hopefully he gets a run out against Brighton. Nothing less than a win against Wolves next week please.

[Hades]

We had a better first team in May than now.

 

Pretty much sums it up. Either Kenny or Comolli needs firing - it'll probably end up being the foreign scapegoat, even though everyone's aware who's responsible for the mediocre signings.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

Mate - it wasn't 2-0 in the first 5 and Spurs did not score 6 or 7. If we had cut out these errors it would still have been a loss - just not as bad. Sorry, but I can't do with the hissyfit stuff some are offering on here.

 

It wasn't 2-0 either, like you say "it would've been sans those errors". Which is true of course, but in my view totally irrelevant as 6-0 would be a better reflection of this game than 2-0.

[G Richards]

I think this can still be a good season. It looks as though there are three teams on a higher level to us, but after that we will most likely be fighting with Spurs and Arsenal, who I expect to improve, for fourth spot.

 

We need to work hard and improve, and I think that's exactly what we will do.

 

I expect us to finish fourth and will consider that a good season, as it will get us back in the CL and hopefully will give us the ability to add one or two players with the necessary pace and creativity to help us kick on for a title challenge thereafter.

 

If we don't finish top four I think Reina may possibly spew it and move on, as that will be a long time outside the top competition for a player like him, who is at his peak. I would expect the vultures to circle around Suarez if we do not finish top four, but he will stick around as by the end of this season he will have only been here one and a half seasons.

[rEddie]

It wasn't 2-0 either, like you say "it would've been sans those errors". Which is true of course, but in my view totally irrelevant as 6-0 would be a better reflection of this game than 2-0.

 

You sound like you want that score so bad. Why? Look, lets beg to differ. Tough day. Bad result. We both want the same things for this team, we don't see eye to eye on this one. We will on the victories though. All the best.

[KopOut]

Lots of people are pointing to our defense with concern, and, while it's obvious we are already seeing some bad signs what with injuries and letting in 'soft goals' (Carra switching off two minutes early in the game against Bolton; Skyrtle giving away a penalty late on in the League Cup - and they were the games we won) no, what concerns me is our strike power, or rather, lack of it

 

Please don't tell me we're going to be relying on Bellamy when we have 50 odd million quid of strikers ahead of him on the team sheet, and yet, that's the horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. Suarez came back from Copa America as player of the tournament, and immediately slotted into our team in such a relaxed fashion that he calmly missed a penalty. Clinical strikers don't miss penalties, or miss open goals. His miss against Sunderland cost us 3 points. His open goal fiasco at Stoke cost us a point, maybe three.

 

Kenny doesn't appear to have faith in Carroll, because if he starts, he doesn't usually finish, and if he doesn't start, he gets 20 minutes as an afterthought. Today from what i can tell (not seen the game yet) Kenny didn't even see fit to put him in a forward striking role? If that's true, it says a lot about why we might struggle to finish top four. Can Kenny feel justified in not having faith in his newly acquired 35 million pound striker?? That's a resounding YES from where I'm sitting. I'm just not seeing anything even remotely like the kind of talent that's a given for a player of that value. I can't put my finger on it, but he doesn't seem to fit like he should be, ahead of our midfield. With Stevie back that may change.

 

I'm pretty sure that Kenny's plans have gone awry -early injuries and the very late return of our captain aren't helping our cause, but our strikers should have found the net more convincingly by now. Spurs and Stoke were two top teams from last season that we needed to overhaul; they were markers of our potential, our improved circumstances. Sadly, we lost all six points.

 

To win games we need to score goals. For all our attractive play we seem to have an inability to be ruthless in front of goal. We need to MAKE IT HAPPEN. Quickly. If we don't turn this around, then yeah we will lose Reina and others as well.

[Unrighteous]

[VladimirIlyich]

Yes it can because the top 2 or 3 will finish miles ahead of the rest and we need to be in that 4th place shake up.

Spurs arent 4 goals better than us as a team so lets take a deep breath and wait for a few months before we make any real judgement.

[Gym Beglin]

This'll be long, but I think that this weekend has encapsulated everything about the current Premiership season that you need to know, and this is why:

 

 

Manchester United.

Storming. It's relentless, it's like Jack Boots on asphalt, these fuckers just wade in and try the uppercut as soon as the first bell goes.

And they can, because they've got the defence to slow down any counter attack. United could leave 6 players in the opposition half and still get a few clean sheets a season.

Rooney is perhaps one of the best players on the planet now, I think that's without question. But it's supplemented by a number of players who are in the top 20 players for their position in the World, namely Nani, Young, Berbatov, Hernandez, Evra, Jones, Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic, De Gea. Below that, we're talking about young players with quality, with pace, and with the potential to get even better, and that's Fabio, Rafael, Smalling, Cleverley and Fletcher.

There are still issues, but not major ones. The likes of Owen, Evans, Carrick, Anderson are picking up hefty wages and are not World Class, and it's debatable how much United could recoup in sales. Also, Ferdinand is closing in on retirement soon, and so Ferguson will once again be looking for another centre back or two.

But overall, just a crushing machine, like Rafa's Valencia of yesteryear. But also, they don't need 10 chances to score a goal, they are surgical, when they hit the ball they mean it and it goes roughly where they want it to. There's also no admiring of shots, players are told to get in the box, and so many times a rebound or spill finds a United player rather than an opposition number. It's simply numbers, they keep pushing players forward and in doing so they force the opposition to sit deep (and take a pounding) or try to play a high-line, in which case the pace of the offensive players is deadly in behind them.

 

 

Chelsea.

It's catching up with them, it's a major transitional time for Chelsea who are now having to look beyond Lampard and Drogba. Boas is also forcing massive change on the squad on purpose one feels, perhaps to instill the feeling that no player is undroppable. In the short-term this causes problems, but in the long-term it's so very necessary.

Their front three was Mata, Sturridge and Torres, and it looked very good at times yesterday. Pace galore, allied with intelligence, and all three capable of hitting the target from distance.

In midfield it was a bit of a nightmare. Meireles, Ramires and Lampard are three central midfielders, and they played like it, jack of all trades, master of none. And this is Chelsea's problem, there's a real lack of specialist talent in attack and defence. Ivanovic is a great player, but he's not a flying full back nor is he a dominant centre back. He's an Arbeloa, and while one loves an Arbeloa, they have to be bench players at the very highest level.

Chelsea made chances but didn't take them. There isn't the accuracy about them that United have, and there isn't the numbers in support getting into the box to force errors and snap up loose balls or rebounded efforts.

World Player polls from 18 months, maybe two years ago, would have Drogba, Lampard, Torres, Terry, Cech, Cole all up in the Top 30 players in Europe. I'm not sure if you'd fit all of them in the top 100 now. That's how quickly the game catches up with you when you get over 30 years old, or suffer an injury or two. Ask Kaka.

 

 

 

Manchester City.

A mate of mine read out the City team before they played, and it sounded very much like a Football Manager team that I once assembled, though I had Di Maria instead of Nasri, and Torres instead of Dzeko.

Their time will come, there's no stopping them in the long-term and already Mancini is now saying that he needs more players. The 2-2 with Fulham showed the problems that come when you have a group of players who lack leadership when under the cosh. And that's all they lack to be fair, leadership, both from the bench and on the field, particularly on the field.

The constellation of talent will win you 90% of games, but there are going to be times when form or mistakes put the team under pressure, and you need a player to drag that collective team chin back up, and point the ship in the right direction once more.

They'll pummel teams, and I'm sure they'll pummel United or Chelsea perhaps once this season given a chance, but they'll lose silly points when the going gets tough and teams rally and work hard to annoy them. That's when tempers go, when players get annoyed with each other, and when heads drop.

Central midfield is still the area where you can exploit City, despite the riches on display, it's still all anchored to Barry and De Jong, and both are fallible. Expect Mancini to correct that very soon.

 

 

 

Arsenal.

Same old same old. The likes of Rosicky, Walcott, Arshavin and Van Persie were barely good enough to supplement Fabregas and Nasri, so it's no surprise that they still fall short when coupled with Arteta and Gervinho.

Defensively, I've never seen a worse Arsenal side. The back four are lacklustre, completely devoid of quality and leadership, it's a sinking ship and bizarrely the only thing keeping it semi-stable is the presence of the much-improved Pole in the Goal. How Koscielny cost more than £500,000 I do not know, he's an utter liability. But he's not the only one.

A Gooner mate was saying the other day how poorly Song is playing compared to the last 18 months, and I think that's massive problem for them. I was one of Song's biggest fans initially, but he's really tailed off and you can only assume he's unhappy and looking for a way out now.

Chamberlain, Ramsey and Wilshire will rightly give Gunners fans reason to be hopeful for the future, but one can only assume that Wenger will not be around when they reach their 25th birthdays, so it's a really strange season or two for Arsenal now. Do the board want to invest in the vision of a manager who is likely not to be here in 3 years?

Arsenal fans surely know they are £50m short of being a contender once more, perhaps even more.

 

 

 

Tottenham.

When the going gets tough, Ledley King and Gareth Bale are injured.

However, they're both 100% fit when facing Liverpool.

Harry can't hide it, Spurs are in trouble and yesterday did little to persuade me otherwise. The massive weaknesses of a slow Liverpool team were the catalyst, and a card-happy referee the fulcrum, but it's absurd that Spurs did not score more than 4 against us, especially as one was a Worldie and one was a howler from Reina.

Adebayour will plug the gap for a while, but he'll soon tire of it, as he did at City most recently.

Van Der Vaart will continue to be genial, but he's already showing a side of him that Spurs hoped he'd left behind at Madrid. He hasn't.

That Spurs beat Liverpool 4-0 is rediculous enough, but considering that side featured Brad Friedel, Youness Kaboul, and Niko Kranjcar...well that's absurd and eventually it's going to determine their final position this season.

Still, in Bassong and Corluka, Spurs had two centre backs on the bench who are comfortably better than anything defensively in Liverpool's first XI.

In Van Der Vaart and Giovani, Spurs also had two players with far, far more creativity and intelligence than anything on Liverpool's bench, which included Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi.

If Harry can keep them fit, then Modric and Parker will be a brilliant midfield duet, and Spurs could quite conceivably take the 4th place this season based on that, and the pace of Lennon, Defoe and Adebayour.

Walker and Assou-Ekotto are two very underrated full backs also, Walker has really taken off in the last 12 months.

But the soft underbelly is there, and a lack of tactical guile from Harry will see them lose heavily again to someone like City, United or Chelsea, and the mood and attitude of key players, not bothered by Harry's matey mates approach, will see them implode every now and then once more.

 

 

 

Liverpool.

The afternoon started off poorly, and then got worse, and then got worse, and then got funny.

But the question remains, why did the afternoon start off bad?

After a week off, a week to prepare for a fairly predictable Spurs side (pace, pace, pace), we still seemed surprised to find out that Parker and Modric were the sort of players you don't allow to settle on the ball.

We still seemed surprised that Defoe is quicker than any of our centre backs.

And we still seem surprised when other teams don't have a Lucas and still seem to play better than us.

It's nigh on impossible to speak impartially about the game and our approach, but we didn't seem to take Spurs seriously.

The big issue at Anfield is still the 'one man team' problem, whereas it was once Gerrard, and then was Torres AND Gerrard for a short while, until one or both of them was injured, it's now Suarez's turn to be Saviour-In-Chief.

And when a team plays long balls upto Suarez or Carroll, but retain a defensive line about 10 yards from their own box, you're not going to give your midfield much of a chance to get forward and win that second ball.

You could see this in Suarez's gestures himself, he would approach a defender to feign a header, and then would stop and step back, hoping to get a bit of the ball on the deck when it was won back. But he turned around and saw that the nearest teammate to him was 30 yards back down the pitch.

Dalglish isn't alone here, Hodgson also was guilty of it, the inexplicable rise and rise of Lucas.

Spurs played yesterday with no Lucas, their version of Lucas was Scott Parker. And that's some difference in quality and dynamism. Our playmaker was Adam, there's was Modric. I get the feeling that Lucas and Adam looked at themselves in the dressing room mirror, and then looked at the opposition team-sheet, and must have wondered what the point was in playing yesterday.

I doubt that Defoe was worrying too much about how he was going to steal a yard on Carragher.

I doubt that Adebayour was worrying about winning an aerial duel with Carragher.

And I doubt that Bale or Kranjcar were worrying too much about keeping Henderson quiet.

All in all, Liverpool have some good qualities, and they will win many games due to the brilliance of Suarez, and Gerrard, should his groin stand the test at Brighton. But over and above those two, it's still mediocre. Downing being the highlight of the rest, capable of stunning wingplay, but hampered by the problem whereby everything has to go through him, because Henderson or Kuyt aren't the same quality out on the other flank. The solution for the opposition is easy, they just gang up on Downing.

IF Gerrard is match-fit and lasts the rest of the season, IF Suarez still has the same enthusiasm when he realises that United are 20 points clear of us by November, and IF Kenny Dalglish realises that a lack of pace is the primary catalyst for failure at this level, then we could be in with a shout of 4th. If not, Spurs will happily take it.

[silverlining]

Don't agree with all of that, but I can't be arsed pointing out which bits.

 

Good post, though. Appreciate the effort.

 

As for the "pace" question, I get repeatedly bummed on here by armchair knowitalls when I bemoan our lack of pace.

 

"nobody can run faster than the ball" type of fucking bollocks.

 

NO TEAM WINS TROPHIES WITHOUT PACE ALL OVER THE PITCH.

 

Not every single position, but you need some in every area.

 

We've been too one-paced for years, and we still are.

 

Agree totally re: Lucas. (obviously!) Parker's twice the player he is. At worst.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Fuck City, I'm just wondering how many we're going to lose by at Brighton.

 

Some things never change, you are still a massive troll. As for your comments regarding Suarez (you are not that special that I feel the need to quote two of your posts in quick succession) earlier in the thread. One bad performance does not equal a rut, Suarez has shown plenty to suggest he is a player we can't afford to lose. He puts in a good shift, he is by far the most technical player we have at the moment and if he wasn't whining then i'd be more worried about him losing his passion to play for us. The whining is down to him being passionate and frustrated when things are clearly not going well. If you want to take this away from a player like Suarez then you clearly are a fool.

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Of fucking course it can, I'm still looking forward to our games, still loving the king, still eager to see Carroll become the player i hope he can be, still waiting for Gerrard to burst back into the team and grab us a late winner, still waiting for lil' luis to get the golden boot and player of the season. If two fucking defeats is stopping you from believing in the team and the king then you can fuck off and support someone else.

[Red Phoenix]

It might turn out really well that this has happened. That feeling of being in trouble if we don't get our shit together quickly that we had last season might return, and if we can start playing as well as we did then, Kenny has a lot more time than last season to head for a top 4 finish.

 

I don't think his buys have been perfect, and I wonder sometimes at the players he picks, but there's always a sense that sooner or later we're going to start getting things sorted out and do really well. I'd guess that'll be about the time Gerrard returns if we don't suffer any more injuries. Cannot wait for him to return, it's been way too long without him now.

 

And if you compare our problems this season to the same time last season, it almost makes me want to laugh.

[Gym Beglin]

Gerrard can, and will, make a massive difference.

Regardless of how well he plays.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

This is not a knee jerk thread.

 

[WaltonRed]

We lost, get over it.

 

We've no devine right to win games.

 

We didnt show up, we would of lost 1 or 2 nil but you never know, the ref was a total joke and he's the main reason we got bummed.

 

Onwards and upwards, win wednesday, win Saturday roll on two massive games.

[Guest LFD]

We can have a very good season, but I think Dalglish has to be ruthless.

 

For me that means not playing Carroll. Use him as a plan b, until he proves he is good enough to justify a start over someone like Kuyt.

 

Lucas / Gerrard for me are clearly our best centre midfield line up. Ideally we'd use Gerrard higher up the field, but we Adam I don't think is good enough defensively to partner Lucas (against top or weaker sides) and Henderson / Spearing / Shelvey aren't good enough yet to boss games.

 

Our best front four for me are Kuyt, Suarez, Downing and Bellamy. They can all inter change, all score, all have brilliant movement and work hard.

 

Add Kelly / Johnson at right back, the best keeper in the league in Reina and three centre backs to choose from + Coates (who I don't know anything about).

 

I see no reason why we can't finiush top four and do well in the cups.

 

But we have to stop playing Henderson at right mid, over a proven match winner like Bellamy. Kuyt isn't perfect, but he is the best option poacher we have and love or hate him he gets goals.

 

But for me we are playing Carroll, Adam and Henderson as regulars, when Gerrard, Bellamy and Kuyt should be if we want to finish top four and achieve something this season. Until Carroll, Adam and Henderson improve - I don't see how they justify starting over those three proven Premiership players.

 

Be ruthless Kenny.

[clangers]

We can have a very good season, but I think Dalglish has to be ruthless.

 

For me that means not playing Carroll. Use him as a plan b, until he proves he is good enough to justify a start over someone like Kuyt.

 

Lucas / Gerrard for me are clearly our best centre midfield line up. Ideally we'd use Gerrard higher up the field, but we Adam I don't think is good enough defensively to partner Lucas (against top or weaker sides) and Henderson / Spearing / Shelvey aren't good enough yet to boss games.

 

Our best front four for me are Kuyt, Suarez, Downing and Bellamy. They can all inter change, all score, all have brilliant movement and work hard.

 

Add Kelly / Johnson at right back, the best keeper in the league in Reina and three centre backs to choose from + Coates (who I don't know anything about).

 

I see no reason why we can't finiush top four and do well in the cups.

 

But we have to stop playing Henderson at right mid, over a proven match winner like Bellamy. Kuyt isn't perfect, but he is the best option poacher we have and love or hate him he gets goals.

 

But for me we are playing Carroll, Adam and Henderson as regulars, when Gerrard, Bellamy and Kuyt should be if we want to finish top four and achieve something this season. Until Carroll, Adam and Henderson improve - I don't see how they justify starting over those three proven Premiership players.

 

Be ruthless Kenny.

 

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, but the worry is that in Adam, Henderson and Carroll we've pissed nearly £60 million of disposable expenditure on three players who ultimately aren't good enough to improve the first team? As other posters have stated we looked stronger in May without them. That's a pretty big fuck up.

 

Hopefully we'll see what they are made of over the coming weeks?

[Guest LFD]

I don't care how much Adam, Henderson and Carroll cost personally.

 

OK we might have paid over the odds on one, two or all three of them. But then again Enrique and Suarez are worth more than we paid by the looks of it.

 

You win some, you lose others. But Dalglish has spent £50 million net since he has arrived, got rid of the flops and bought Carroll, Suarez, Henderson, Enrique, Adam, Coates, Doni and Downing - That looks good business to me.

 

Even if we sell Carroll in January we'd get £10 million minimum. Adam won't have depreciated in value and I see no reason to sell Henderson - the guy has talent, is very young and the future if not the present. I just don't see him as a right midfielder, I think he is a centre midfielder.

 

But we don't need to sell anyone yet, they can all come good - but what we do need to do is start picking our best team and that for me doesn't include those three players, regardless of who we play in the league. In the league cup or if we have injuries, then play them, but if fit Gerrard, Lucas, Bellamy, Kuyt, Downing and Suarez are our best option in my opinion.

[kalasoma]

The season is well and truly over now. Losing two games in a row, five games in. Players performing beneath their full potential. We've gotten rid of our best players and replaced them with utter crap. So yeah, I'd call it quits right now because we obviously will play like this for the other 33 games. Forget about the cup games too. We'll probably be knocked out of those early. We're going to be in a relegation battle come Christmas so enjoy the season now while we're still sort of in it.

 

Oh, wait. That was last season.

[WaltonRed]

Henderson, Carroll and adam are the whipping boys then?

[Guest LFD]

Henderson, Carroll and adam are the whipping boys then?

 

The whole team and Kenny deserve criticism after the Spurs match.

 

But I have been consistant in my views on Carroll, Adam and Henderson (who I rate - but just don't think he gets in our best XI, yet) although 99% of my posts are in the MF, so you wouldn't know that.

 

I have had huge doubts about Carroll and Adam since the start of the season, I have seen nothing to change my mind. I also thought Henderson was a centre midfielder, I again have seen nothing to suggest he should be playing on the right.

 

This isn't a 'I told you so' post, it is simply answering your question, that I am not blaming these three for the Spurs result as the whole team were not good enough that match. But ultimately, I wouldn't have any of the three in our best XI and I don't see Adam being any better than Aquilani or Meireles, who both got criticised by the fans for not being good enough defensively - when Adam is just as bad, if not worse.

[WaltonRed]

'on the MF, but you wouldnt know that'

 

Do you even go the game?

 

Get behind them, it'll come good, instead of having a go.

 

The Ref fucked us over on Sunday, we'll never know what could of happened had we stayed with 11 men.

 

We've had two unlucky/bad results but this is a new team give it a fucking chance

[Guest LFD]

'on the MF, but you wouldnt know that'

 

Do you even go the game?

 

Get behind them, it'll come good, instead of having a go.

 

The Ref fucked us over on Sunday, we'll never know what could of happened had we stayed with 11 men.

 

We've had two unlucky/bad results but this is a new team give it a fucking chance

 

Hold on, I do get behind them.

 

Also what difference does it matter if I go to games or not (I do as it happens)?!

 

I don't see how you could say I am writing the team off from my three posts in here. Just saying I don't think Carroll, Adam or Henderson get in our best XI - what is wrong with that?

[Benitaur]

To me its simple. Kenny has to decide the style we want to play, and stick to it.

 

The second half of last season showed that Suarez works best with the pass and move type players, which include Kuyt, Maxi, Raul, Lucas and I believe Aquilani and Gerrard. Hell, Lucas looked world class playing in that style.

 

We bought Henderson, Downing and Adam obviously to play to Carroll's supposed strengths. And it is no wonder, our Stoke approach is not working.

 

Its not a bad idea to have Carroll as a plan B. Rafa used Crouch as a battering ram too, but not as the primary style.

 

IMO, although we sold Raul and Aquilani (as good as sold), we should stock up on more of these intelligent, pass and move, tiki taka type players. I am sure Henderson, Downing and Adam will be able to adapt eventually, but not all at once. They need the English style trained out of them first.

 

As for Carroll, since we paid so much for him, he has to adapt to our style, not we adapt to his style. If he eventually cannot fit, we just have to get rid of him, even at a loss. Barcelona got rid of Ibrahimovic too, when he didn't fit their style.

 

So for now, play to Suarez' strengths, which means more of Kuyt and Maxi, less of Adam and Henderson.