Deprivation

[melons]

It's all relative i know, and it's a separate thread as i didn't want to go off on a tangent on the other one.

 

I'm asking your experience as a child growing up your experience of deprivation, if it has an impact on your views of the riots ect...

 

What's going on in London happened on a small scale on some of the estates i lived on on a monthly basis at the very least. Up until the age of 12 i lived on Tanhouse in Skem, then little digmoor in skem around the ages of 16-18. The only reason i learnt behaviour of council estates wasn't a norm was by moving away for the 4 years inbetween.

 

Looting, i'm pretty sure had there been the availability most of my peers would of been involved. The same with the riots, i'd of probably been involved in them. Criminal damage, yeah that would of had me too. Whilst i don't condone it, i do understand the reasons and the dynamics of why it's taking place.

 

I can say that as it was a social norm to hate the police, it was a social norm to be violent, it was a social norm to live in poverty but it was drummed in to our mind set it was the DSS's fault, it was the system to blame for our failure, it was their fault that we often had no food in the cupboard and had to steal to eat, it was a family norm to wear hand me down clothes, to have shoes with holes in ect. Did i think i was deprived, no, because i knew no different and change wasn't readily an option.

 

Is it easy to get out of that cycle? No it's bloody well not, no matter how much i've tried to escape it i've fell into the societal norms that took place in my childhood. Single parent on income supported benefits living in a council house on a council estate. Where the norms i experienced as a child go on daily, only most of these kids won't have a get out clause, they won't know any different way of escaping it to get what they want will be brought about through violence. They'll live on the cycle of benefit never reaching their potential as they're never shown what that potential is.

 

 

 

Views?

[Pony Princess]

My parents worked. Their parents worked. I went to uni and now I work. I believe there are jobs there for people who really want to work but believe there are more people who just don't want to work and would rather live on benefits.

[Anubis]

I grew up in Anfield, and it's unrecognisable from when I was a child.

 

I grew up in a community of families, and people looking out for each other. We didn't have a colour television until I was nine, and a video recorder until I was about twelve. We didn't even have hot water or a bathroom (it was heated water in kettles and pots and the kitchen sink). Most people had jobs, not well paid, but steady work, and there was a sense of community (street parties, etc). The biggest rivalry we had with the kids from nearby streets was a football tournament in the local wreck.

 

But steadily that's all changed. The libraries on Breck Rd and St Domingo Rd have closed. People lost their jobs and didn't have the skills or education to move into the new service based economy that replaced the loss of manufacturing jobs. Families suddenly faced pressures - lack of money, increased advertising, increased credit, the 'have it all now' lifestyle. Drugs moved in. Local businesses have closed as supermarket and bargain chains took the custom. As such there are no local 'meeting' places for the community any more.

 

People have become fearful and insular. Kids from individual streets have formed into feral packs that look after themselves and their pack. Now the rivalry is stabbing and shooting, not a football tournament. You have whole streets of kids who only know a few streets either side or the town centre, and have no idea of the world outside. Their only income is crime, and the money spent on drugs whatever the new 'uniform' is.

 

And nobody in government has tried to address this for the best part of 30 years. Instead, they have concentrated on the middle class and the rich.

 

And this is against the backdrop of an explosion of advertising, the selling of an unobtainable dream, which is dangled before people. And anyone who thinks that hasn't played a part in the 'take it for yourself' society is kidding themselves. Take toy adverts - when I was a kid the adverts were only at Christmas - nowdays they targeted at children either side of school time, and more forcefully in shops. And the same can be said of most lifestyle products.

 

All of this has contributed to where we are now. Most people bought into the capitalist 'dream', and now its about to fall on its arse there will be increasing consequences.

[Phoenix]

I grew up on a council estate full of social disorder, riots, fights, drugs everything you can name. Parent worked n a steel foundry until he became redundant at late age and thereafter retiring. Not great family life with constant domestics.police around etc

 

I promised myself that i would work hard in education despite my peers, friends and acquantances being involved in some sort of crime.

 

At the end of it, i was the first person out of my family to go to university..working to subsidise the degree and going onto work top ten law firm. Now all five siblings have been to uni and working in or towards a profession

 

As you can imagine, i have absolutely no sympathy for looters,criminals and others in london.

 

You make your choices in life.

[kelster]

I was born in Liverpool and brought up in a single parent non-working family in the north end of Birkenhead. I went to uni and now work in research for a hi-tech company in London and Cambridge.

 

Thankfully, it didn't make me a self-righteous prick who looks down on the less fortunate from my old area.

[Whelan]

Normal, average parents, not much money, grew up in Walton, not a nice area. My mates are all sound, not thugs, not smack heads, not theives. First in my family to go to Uni, did well got a decent job, made a few mistakes, and paid for them.

 

Despite my points of view towards the riots, I am not an apologist, I know that there are people who don't want to work, of course there are, I also know that there are some who are complete cunts regardless of what demographic they are from, but I also know that sometimes people are not 'nice' because society is designed to enable that type of environment to grow.

 

It isn't as simple as making choices, some peoples choices are far more varied, and far more rewarding.

 

The only choice you have is the type of person you want to become, and this doesn't always work out.

[Uncle_Meat]

My dad was self employed as an upholsterer, my mam worked part time with disabled kids. We were by no means rich, but not as poor as some of my mates. At least we had our own house in a quieter part of Old Swan.

 

Thing I remember though, is that it made no difference whatsoever to my mates. Some were better off, some less so, but we all saw each other straight. One week I might have a few quid to pay us all into the pictures or the bus to Seffy park, other other someone else would. I can't remember any of my mates or their families feeling left behind or bitter towards the ones who were better off as we helped each other.

 

Now, the aftermath of the 80s with the "me me me" instant gratification society, the "have nots" are getting this bullshit bling thing thrown at them from all sides.. You *need* this "insert consumer item/trend here*, you need that hairstyle. Bollocks bollocks bollocks, yada yada yada. Anubis puts it better than I can at the moment. My brain hurts.

 

Whilst I can't condone the actions of those who turn to lawlessness or crime to satiate their needs inflamed by the above, I can sort of understand their frustrations.

[kelster]

I grew up on a council estate full of social disorder, riots, fights, drugs everything you can name. Parent worked n a steel foundry until he became redundant at late age and thereafter retiring. Not great family life with constant domestics.police around etc

 

I promised myself that i would work hard in education despite my peers, friends and acquantances being involved in some sort of crime.

 

At the end of it, i was the first person out of my family to go to university..working to subsidise the degree and going onto work top ten law firm. Now all five siblings have been to uni and working in or towards a profession

 

As you can imagine, i have absolutely no sympathy for looters,criminals and others in london.

 

You make your choices in life.

 

[Strontium]

I was born and raised in Kenny, and my parents still live there, although a fat lot of good it's done me, as I still get accused of living in an ivory tower by people who grew up in the comfortable suburbs.

 

I went to Birchfield school on Edge Lane (now been knocked down, it's called Phoenix or something now). The facilities were terrible, but the teachers were good, and the pupils respected them. Not like today where little Hitlers rule the classrooms and chocolate teapot teachers are powerless to stop them.

 

Most kids were sound, but you could tell back then which lads (and they were all lads) would end up in prison. Invariably they came from appalling families, and only had a basic grasp of literacy. Really though, you can tell who's going to become a criminal before they've even learnt to walk. It's all about background, and there are too many parents out there who shouldn't be trusted to keep yucca plants, let alone children.

 

I don't think the problem is as simple as throwing a shit ton of other people's money at it. More taxpayer money is being thrown at deprivation than ever before in our history, and it's achieved the square root of fuck all.

 

Yeah, if there's 50 unemployed for every job, that's a problem, but if you can't even fucking read or write then you're not going to get that job even if you're the only applicant. "More jobs" isn't the issue, more education is.

[Phoenix]

 

....I lost my sense of humour at the time of gaining my self righteousness

[Section_31]

I might update this another time but don't really have the wits or energy at the moment. What I will say is that I've never had a friend that was as skint as my family when I was growing up. I was from working class stock and my mum cleaned bogs to send me to a private school, the working class kids there all had more than I did, as do the working class people I met outside of school as I was growing up, in uni, in work.

 

One thing about deprivation though is that it's not just about money, it's about power and respect. My mum has faced an uphill battle to get my sister diagnosed as autistic, and I firmly believe it was because (a) we lived in areas that were deprived of good medical professionals, and (b) these people don't respect you much or want to help you when you're poor. Efforts to diagnose my sister moved on leaps and bounds when I went with my mum to see the psychologist about her. I scrubbed up and am a reasonably articulate person, and that 'sold' the fact my sister did have problems and wasn't just some kind of naughty kid from an 'underclass' home.

 

My mum has been pushed around all her life by headteachers, doctors, you name it. The GPs around here tend to view you with suspicion and tend to think you're a bit of a drain on their time, and the police tend to give you the same attitude.

 

If you've got a couple of quid and can stand up for yourself and present yourself in the desired manner, you really can live a very different life in this country, a very different life.

 

My boss drunkenly told me at his retirement (redundancy) do last week that I 'have a chip on my shoulder'. And he's right, I do. But I prefer to think of it as a gag reflex for bullshit.

[Vivaldo]

I grew up in Anfield, and it's unrecognisable from when I was a child.

 

I grew up in a community of families, and people looking out for each other. We didn't have a colour television until I was nine, and a video recorder until I was about twelve. We didn't even have hot water or a bathroom (it was heated water in kettles and pots and the kitchen sink). Most people had jobs, not well paid, but steady work, and there was a sense of community (street parties, etc). The biggest rivalry we had with the kids from nearby streets was a football tournament in the local wreck.

 

But steadily that's all changed. The libraries on Breck Rd and St Domingo Rd have closed. People lost their jobs and didn't have the skills or education to move into the new service based economy that replaced the loss of manufacturing jobs. Families suddenly faced pressures - lack of money, increased advertising, increased credit, the 'have it all now' lifestyle. Drugs moved in. Local businesses have closed as supermarket and bargain chains took the custom. As such there are no local 'meeting' places for the community any more.

 

People have become fearful and insular. Kids from individual streets have formed into feral packs that look after themselves and their pack. Now the rivalry is stabbing and shooting, not a football tournament. You have whole streets of kids who only know a few streets either side or the town centre, and have no idea of the world outside. Their only income is crime, and the money spent on drugs whatever the new 'uniform' is.

 

And nobody in government has tried to address this for the best part of 30 years. Instead, they have concentrated on the middle class and the rich.

 

And this is against the backdrop of an explosion of advertising, the selling of an unobtainable dream, which is dangled before people. And anyone who thinks that hasn't played a part in the 'take it for yourself' society is kidding themselves. Take toy adverts - when I was a kid the adverts were only at Christmas - nowdays they targeted at children either side of school time, and more forcefully in shops. And the same can be said of most lifestyle products.

 

All of this has contributed to where we are now. Most people bought into the capitalist 'dream', and now its about to fall on its arse there will be increasing consequences.

 

This is a great post that I could not have put any better.

[Vivaldo]

I was born and raised in Kenny, and my parents still live there, although a fat lot of good it's done me, as I still get accused of living in an ivory tower by people who grew up in the comfortable suburbs.

 

I went to Birchfield school on Edge Lane (now been knocked down, it's called Phoenix or something now). The facilities were terrible, but the teachers were good, and the pupils respected them. Not like today where little Hitlers rule the classrooms and chocolate teapot teachers are powerless to stop them.

 

Most kids were sound, but you could tell back then which lads (and they were all lads) would end up in prison. Invariably they came from appalling families, and only had a basic grasp of literacy. Really though, you can tell who's going to become a criminal before they've even learnt to walk. It's all about background, and there are too many parents out there who shouldn't be trusted to keep yucca plants, let alone children.

 

I don't think the problem is as simple as throwing a shit ton of other people's money at it. More taxpayer money is being thrown at deprivation than ever before in our history, and it's achieved the square root of fuck all.

 

Yeah, if there's 50 unemployed for every job, that's a problem, but if you can't even fucking read or write then you're not going to get that job even if you're the only applicant. "More jobs" isn't the issue, more education is.

 

I can relate to what you are saying, I could see the same thing growing up. I went to 3 different secondary schools one in Notts, the other in Derby and the third in Northants.

 

The other thing that is missing and can be attributed towards background are values. There are far too many youths that don't have many or none at all. From a young age my father drummed it in to me how I should behave in front of others, respect for my elders, never forgot the good even if you now see bad etc

[Ian Beales Gut]

Reading this is a bit like that month pyhton sketch were they are all sitting around talking about ow poor they were when they were lads!!

 

In the end it Doesn't matter how poor you were or are at all. It just matters if you have morals, values and respect for others. Too many people don't, its all about don't diss me you gotta respect mr or I'll batter you bollocks. What these scum don't realise ibthat respect is earned not guaranteed. If you act like a scrote you get treated like a scrote. Don't steal, don't threaten people, don't destroy or vandalise other people's property and try and get a job so that you can get some self respect and pay your own way. Then you may find that people will start to respect you!

[giblinho]

It really is all about morals. I grew up relatively well-off in the USA going to private school where I was surrounded by some unbelievably wealthy people, and I know plenty who would be full on in these riots. I knew kids whose parents were multimillionaires who were selling drugs or vandalizing property just for the thrill of it. Wealth isn't the issue, morals are.

[Anubis]

Reading this is a bit like that month pyhton sketch were they are all sitting around talking about ow poor they were when they were lads!!

 

In the end it Doesn't matter how poor you were or are at all. It just matters if you have morals, values and respect for others. Too many people don't, its all about don't diss me you gotta respect mr or I'll batter you bollocks. What these scum don't realise ibthat respect is earned not guaranteed. If you act like a scrote you get treated like a scrote. Don't steal, don't threaten people, don't destroy or vandalise other people's property and try and get a job so that you can get some self respect and pay your own way. Then you may find that people will start to respect you!

 

Proving that you've not actually read what has been written.

[cochcaer]

Grew up in the 80s YTS era. Jobs were scarce as unemployment was running very high and I did spend a few months on the dole. Country was fairly broken as the miners strike was underway and the inner-cities weren't places you'd want to live. The big difference would be that the dole money (no tax credits or income support) was so low you had to find something, even if it was cash in hand. This week still comes as no surprise.

[Ian Beales Gut]

Proving that you've not actually read what has been written.

 

I think Ive hit the nail on the head to be honest. Morals and respect for others these people lack the basics of humanity. The monty python stuff was a joke . Look the sketch up on YouTube it's a classic.

[VladimirIlyich]

Grew up in the 80s YTS era. Jobs were scarce as unemployment was running very high and I did spend a few months on the dole. Country was fairly broken as the miners strike was underway and the inner-cities weren't places you'd want to live. The big difference would be that the dole money (no tax credits or income support) was so low you had to find something, even if it was cash in hand. This week still comes as no surprise.

 

The dole money still is shit,£50 a week for a single young adult is hardly a kings ransom is it?

Tax credits etc,only apply when there are kids involved and are paid to the women and not the men.

[Brownie]

I find it hard to describe my up-bringing because we moved to Asia when I was a baby up until I was about 6/7, due to my dads work. We returned to the UK in 1989 and that's when things changed. Initially we lived in a lovely house in Huyton but my mum and dad had a volatile relationship and ended up seperating which lead to the house being re-possessed and us heading into a number of years of deprivation.

 

I'm actually very proud of how me and my family have turned out despite the challenges and I guess it must come from the time we spent in Asia and the lessons it taught us.

 

I went to uni and now i'm doing fairly well and have started a family etc. Things are tough now though with the missus being off work and money is tight because our income has been massively reduced whilst she's off.

 

I suppose our timing is bad what with the changes to Tax Credits, increased VAT, hike in prices of essential 'products' like food, gas, water etc.

 

I'm rambling now but i'm genuinely grateful for the time I spent away from home as a kid because it opened up my mind to opportunities that may have remained closed otherwise.

[cochcaer]

The dole money still is shit,£50 a week for a single young adult is hardly a kings ransom is it?

 

No. I think when I was 16 the YTS was £28pw, dole was £45 a fortnight. Twas slave labour more or less.

[silverlining]

Well, I was born in Netherton, which isn't a great area, although it was far nicer 35 years ago.

 

My parents worked fucking hard, and as they grew more affluent, moved to more affluent areas. So I spent most of youth living in typcal middle-class comfort in Formby, having nice holidays and never wanting for anything.

 

We weren't "rich" and I didn't go to a private school, but of course I was around kids who clearly had less money than I did (or had access to).

 

So maybe I'm not best placed to offer an objective view, but it isn't just about deprivation. It's parenting and culture.

[VladimirIlyich]

 

No. I think when I was 16 the YTS was £28pw, dole was £45 a fortnight. Twas slave labour more or less.

 

Same here mate. I think my first YTS was about £25 and it was compulsory to take one otherwise you couldnt get dole until you turned 18.

[Uncle_Meat]

No. I think when I was 16 the YTS was £28pw, dole was £45 a fortnight. Twas slave labour more or less.

 

I remember that myself. I still did it though, came out with a C&G in electronic servicing. 2nd year YTS was on placement for 12 months at a heady £35 a week before being offered a full time place at £60 a week. It was shit slave labour but was still marginally better than signing on.

 

I remember one place, can't remember the name of the firm but they used to make alarms and electrical timer boards and whatnot. They would take the piss out of the YTS by having a load of kids on placement stuffing circuit boards and working the flow soldering machine for buttons per week. When it came to offering them a permanent job, they fucked them off and got a load of new YTS lads in.

[cochcaer]

I remember that myself. I still did it though, came out with a C&G in electronic servicing. 2nd year YTS was on placement for 12 months at a heady £35 a week before being offered a full time place at £60 a week. It was shit slave labour but was still marginally better than signing on.

 

I did too as I was promised in the 2nd year I could start an engineering apprenticeship. But they fucked me off after 12 months and employed another YTS school-leaver.

 

I can understand them taking advantage but it left me fuming and disillusioned.