Euro-Zone Crisis

[Section_31]

they do have some history of doing this. They did it relatively recently, I think it was before Prodi got in about 20 years ago.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for one second Italian politics isn't fucked up and that at least a third of their MPs don't wear sunglasses indoors, but seriously what the fuck is going on? This is financial occupation, nothing less, this 'government' is not about helping Italiy or its people, it's about 'calming the markets' whatever the fuck that means. The market decides to increase your interest rates on whim, your debt suddenly becomes a bigger issue, your leader is ousted, someone you never voted for replaces him, the markets are 'calmed'. It's breathtaking stuff, it wasn't even mentioend once on Questiontime last week, terrifying times.

[dennis tooth]

Spain's hovering close to 7% now and France, Belgium, Austria, its not looking good for you either.

[Section_31]

Spain's hovering close to 7% now and France, Belgium, Austria, its not looking good for you either.

 

It's fucking insane, who makes those decisions though? Some belt 'n' braces cunt sat behind a desk in Moodys or the ironically names Standard and Poors, shortly after which entire governments topple. Absolutely unreal situation we're in here, I can't believe some of the shit.

[Strontium]

It wouldn't be an issue if governments didn't borrow trillions all the time.

 

If you want to be rid of the influence of credit agencies, don't spend so much money on credit. Quite, quite simple.

 

If the one lesson learnt from this whole sorry mess is that states should live within their means, it will all be well worth it.

[dennis tooth]

It wouldn't be an issue if governments didn't borrow trillions all the time.

 

If you want to be rid of the influence of credit agencies, don't spend so much money on credit. Quite, quite simple.

 

If the one lesson learnt from this whole sorry mess is that states should live within their means, it will all be well worth it.

 

It would be nice if the coalition would live within their means. And I mean that both in a financial way and in terms of the empty mandate sleight of hand trick they use to argue they have support for fucking up the economy.

 

Triple A status you say?

God damn it, that’s not all! Because if one of those Tory things gets down here then that will be all! Then all this – this bullshit that you think is so important, you can just kiss all that goodbye!

[Section_31]

It wouldn't be an issue if governments didn't borrow trillions all the time.

 

If you want to be rid of the influence of credit agencies, don't spend so much money on credit. Quite, quite simple.

 

If the one lesson learnt from this whole sorry mess is that states should live within their means, it will all be well worth it.

 

What countries shouldn't have done is bailed out banks which effectively gave my money to the unemployed mr and mrs Cletus Van Damme to buy a house they couldn't afford in Arkansas. Money has been poured into a big black hole by the financial sector, that black hole has now been transfered to the public sector. What should have happend in the aftermath, after states restored stability, is that they should have seized the financial institutions, but instead the financial institutions have seized them.

[dennis tooth]

You dont really mean 'it will all be worth it' do you?

 

I mean, seems a pretty high price to pay for a few ex retired ministers to realise they shouldnt have borrowed trillions, as you claim, which wont happen anyway cos they are all thick plus thats not really a comment based upon reality anyway as the crisis we have now was caused by banks being such a big bunch of cheating bastards rather than EMA and ID cards bringing the entire world to its knees.

[VladimirIlyich]

You dont really mean 'it will all be worth it' do you?

 

I mean, seems a pretty high price to pay for a few ex retired ministers to realise they shouldnt have borrowed trillions, as you claim, which wont happen anyway cos they are all thick plus thats not really a comment based upon reality anyway as the crisis we have now was caused by banks being such a big bunch of cheating bastards rather than EMA and ID cards bringing the entire world to its knees.

 

Well said Dennis.

 

Blame the sticking plasters but ignore the tumour.

[KopOut]

It wouldn't be an issue if governments didn't borrow trillions all the time.

 

If you want to be rid of the influence of credit agencies, don't spend so much money on credit. Quite, quite simple.

 

If the one lesson learnt from this whole sorry mess is that states should live within their means, it will all be well worth it.

 

I'm not sure what the total tax take would be in any of these heavily endebted nations, but I can confidently say that whatever the total tax take is, it wouldn't pay for all the STUFF government needs to buy, to run it's country:- herein lies the deeper problem.

 

The private sector is creating a massive shit load of STUFF for people (and governments) to buy all the time. It's impossible to separate out the needed from the not needed, but even if they could, in terms of costs, the overall tax of any country would not cover the absolute necessary spending of any given government. Nobody wants to pay the kinds of income and consumption tax needed to fund all the STUFF, and governments seem extremely reluctant to impliment the RIGHT taxes..like a financial transactions tax and a land value tax.

 

Land Tax paid for everything well before income tax was introduced, and was much more fair and equitable. An FTT on every financial transaction would HIT THE SPECULATOR MOTHERFUCKERS right in the balls and immediately redress the balance.

[Einch]

Are we all strapped in safely? Things are going to get a lot more interesting soon now that the Germans have been given a kick from the bond markets.

[VladimirIlyich]

I suppose it wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt people who are connected to the gobshites who've brought the world to its knees.

 

Fox in charge of the chicken coop?

[Einch]

The iconic images of Weimar Germany where you needed a basket full of fiat notes to buy a loaf of bread is where we are heading. All of the efforts of the printers to stave of the depression have in all likelihood prolonged and deepened what we were due to suffer after the dot com crash in 2001.

[dennis tooth]

The iconic images of Weimar Germany where you needed a basket full of fiat notes to buy a loaf of bread is where we are heading. All of the efforts of the printers to stave of the depression have in all likelihood prolonged and deepened what we were due to suffer after the dot com crash in 2001.

 

spot on, thats wat we are facing but i wonder if there will be that much social order, maybe a lil bit o that and lil bit o egyptian stylee carnage.

[magicrat]

It's fucking insane, who makes those decisions though? Some belt 'n' braces cunt sat behind a desk in Moodys or the ironically names Standard and Poors, shortly after which entire governments topple. Absolutely unreal situation we're in here, I can't believe some of the shit.

 

Yes it is insane but the way I see it is that it's nation States that are to blame. Forget party politics as its almost an irrelevance in the position we , most of Europe and the States now find ourselves in. For decades every prospective government has been mortgaging the future in order to get elected . The cost of increasing living standards, more costly health , defence, social welfare bills today is largely borrowed against the security of future growth revenue. It’s obvious growth isn’t a smooth upward curve going on forever . At some point the credit card becomes maxed out and they are unable to borrow at sensible rates. Any politician promising to balance the books would never have been elected so the whole thing builds pressure and explodes . The excesses of bankers are just a sideshow and if we think in some way they can be made to pay the price now is just fantasy . The sums are just astronomical and we are and in some way to blame for demanding from our politicians better and better living standard and expecting our children to pick up the tab. We can protest as much as we like , go on strike , all blame the bankers but the reality is living standards will fall and it’s just a question of how fast and by how much. Very soon Germany will have no option but to accept that printing money is the only alternative left to pay the tab for the lame duck members of the EU (at which point they will be kicked out and left to go down the pan ). We are already doing it here and in the States. Our currencies will devalue and we will become less wealthy in comparison with the developing world . Some would argue that is not a bad thing but for people struggling to survive that’s isn’t going to be much comfort. A good few years of social unrest and general misery is going to be the order of the day .

[dennis tooth]

arr shit. not dees niggahs again!

[Xherdan]

German Bund Auction Falls Flat - WSJ.com

 

 

FRANKFURT—The European debt crisis appeared to escalate after a failed German government-bond auction Wednesday, indicating that investors are now demanding higher risk compensation even at the heart of the currency bloc's debt market.

 

German government bonds, or bunds, carry low yields but are deemed the safest haven in the euro-zone bond market. Germany has fallen short of a targeted bond sale before because of its super-low yields, but that size of the shortfall was stunning in a market already rapidly losing confidence in European Union proposals to contain the debt crisis.

 

A German Finance Agency spokesman said the auction reflected a nervous market but the "result doesn't mean any refinancing bottleneck for the budget."

 

The German government was able to sell only €3.644 billion ($4.92 billion) of the €6 billion in 10-year bunds on auction for an average yield of 1.98%. Observers said the result was the worst in recent memory for a German government-bond sale.

 

 

The European debt crisis appeared to escalate after a failed German government-bond auction. Have investors turned a corner and decided that German bunds are no longer a safe-haven?

 

"The auction reflects the deep mistrust [of the] euro project rather than a mistrust to German government bonds," said Danske's chief analyst Jens Peter Sorensen. "As some investors say regarding the Euro project—if it is broke, then fix it."

 

The European Central Bank on Wednesday again moved to support the euro-zone government debt market with purchases of Italian and Spanish bonds as confidence wavered. Adding pressure were reports that Belgium can't pay its agreed share of the planned rescue of the Belgian-French bank Dexia S.A., which is seen as placing more risk at the door of the French treasury and adding another threat to the country's triple-A credit rating.

 

The failed bund auction undid much of the support the ECB might have provided as investors worried that the crisis has now spread to Germany itself.

 

"It is now hitting the heart of Europe," said Simon Derrick of Bank of New York Mellon in London. "Germany has spent the last 25 years building the reputation of its sovereign-bond market, and it will not accept having Greece jeopardize that. Either Greece conforms to the euro rules, or it knows where the door is." The euro was at the day's lows of near $1.3384.

 

The yield on the 10-year French government bond rose by 0.11 percentage point to 3.63% while the Belgian 10-year government bond yield rose by 0.08 percentage point to 5.12%.

 

The cost of insuring European debt against default using credit-default swaps also moved higher in early trading Wednesday, with even bonds from core countries such as Germany now costing more to insure. Italian, Spanish and French debt-insurance costs shot up to record highs.

 

The rising government yields come at a bad time for both France and Belgium ahead of a scheduled bond refinancing next week.

 

Belgium is auctioning a mixture of bonds with maturities ranging from seven to 30 years on Monday, Nov. 28, for an undisclosed amount. France is auctioning bonds with maturities of up to 15 years on Dec. 1 for an estimated combined total of around €4.5 billion.

 

"Belgium's precarious political situation is further fuel to the peripheral fire and, as the Belgian debt agency is due to issue long-dated paper on Monday, we expect [belgian government bonds] to continue to bear the brunt of the selling," Peter Chatwell at Crédit Agricole said in a note to clients.

 

The cost of insuring bank debt against default rose to new records across the 17-country euro-zone Wednesday, as the escalation of the sovereign-debt crisis built on worries France might have to put more money into the Dexia rescue.

 

The five-year CDS of Crédit Agricole SA was at a record 3.51 percentage points and BNP Paribas was at 3.4 percentage points. Société Générale SA saw its CDS hit 4.08 percentage points, still off its 4.28-percentage-point record hit on Sept. 13.

 

Deutsche Bank AG was at a record 2.62 percentage points, which means it now costs an average of $262,000 a year to insure $10 million of debt issued by the company. The five-year CDS of UniCredit SpA widened to a record 5.98 percentage points, Intesa Sanpaolo was at 5.42 percentage points, Monte dei Paschi was at 6.13 percentage points and Banco Popolare S.C. was at 8.91 percentage points.

 

In Spain, Banco Santander was at a record 4.33 percentage points, while BBVA was at 4.43 percentage points. CDS are derivatives that function like a default insurance contract for debt. If a borrower defaults, sellers compensate buyers.

[Xherdan]

Germany really wont like this.

[Section_31]

[KopOut]

.....For decades every prospective government has been mortgaging the future in order to get elected /The cost of increasing living standards, more costly health , defence, social welfare bills today is largely borrowed against the security of future growth revenue/It’s obvious growth isn’t a smooth upward curve going on forever/At some point the credit card becomes maxed out and they are unable to borrow at sensible rates/A good few years of social unrest and general misery is going to be the order of the day........

 

Governments have been borrowing to finance maintainance (let alone growth) for centuries, my friend. Not decades. Why? That's how long we've had Fractional Reserve Banking. When and until, Government is elected by and for the people; with the people exercising their right to vote, upon full disclosure of money 'mechanics', then no sovereign nation can get back to true free market principles, including a FREE means-of-exchange.

 

It begins with education on money mechanics, and ends with a new economics between decentralised sovereign nations.

 

We NEED to kiss the Euro goodbye...just l e t i t g o o o o...........

[KMD7]

[YOUTUBE]NOzR3UAyXao[/YOUTUBE]

 

Funny and true!

[KopOut]

Conditions are approaching what they were pre WW1 and pre WW2.....

[chrisbonnie]

<a href="

">YouTube Link</a>

 

Funny and true!

 

The aussies think they're so high and fucking mighty

 

If they didn't have coal to sell to China they'd be just as fucked as the rest of us

[KopOut]

The aussies think they're so high and fucking mighty

 

If they didn't have coal to sell to China they'd be just as fucked as the rest of us

 

They also sell Uranium to Russia. Shitloads. Also, they export large quantities of Beef, Lamb, Veges and Fruit. Oh yeah there's the Steel Industry and the BHP......

[KopOut]

These Guys are campaigning hard and making headway. They talk sense.

 

Change money, change the world

 

A simple reform to the way money is created would end the debt crisis, reduce poverty and reinvigorate the economy, say campaigners

 

Positive Money, a not-for-profit research and campaign group, believes it has identified the core problem behind the ongoing economic crisis, as well as the solution. The issue, the group says, is the way in which money is created.

 

The Bank Charter Act 1844 made it illegal for anyone but the Bank of England to print and issue notes in England and Wales. However, following deregulations, the advance of computer technology and the law not being updated, it became possible for banks to create digital money – numbers in an account – in the form of loans, overdrafts and other credit.

 

According to Positive Money, by creating a digital loan, at the same time the bank is creating a deposit in the borrower’s account, which means it is creating money that did not previously exist.

 

Josh Ryan-Collins, senior researcher at nef (the New Economics Foundation), said it is a myth that banks are just intermediaries. “In the UK there is no compulsory deposits reserve ratio,” he said, meaning that banks do not need savers’ money held in reserve in order to lend money to borrowers.

 

Positive Money reports that of all the money in existence in the UK, 97% is now digital with only 3% being cash currency.

 

"The control of the money supply should be brought back into the public domain"

Michael Meacher MP

 

Change money, change the world | Positive News

Edited December 2, 2011 by KopOut

[Carvalho Diablo]

I've been told that I'm a Luddite.

 

It's true that if I could I would "un-invent" the computer; I believe that for all the retrograde steps we would see or take, nonetheless, I also believe that we would all be far happier, more social, and far more employed and worthy than we are right now.

 

POF would also be a far safer, Toothless place.

 

Swim on...