No more British players

[PestiRed]

Cuts right to the heart of grass-roots football in this country. Years of neglect & under-investment in the game by PL bosses who want to keep all the cash for wages. Spain has 15,000 UEFA coaches compared to our 1,000. The free market system of football we have created makes us ever more reliant on buying in players who've been developed elsewhere.

 

Scotland's even worse, where are all the great Scottish players that used to under-pin our teams?

[Guest ian garro]

My memories of Barnes were that he would sometimes go missing but when he was involved he was easily the best player in the world. Admittedly this might be because I was pretty young at the time and naively expected him to beat every player & score whenever he received the ball

 

Think you must have been a bit too young mate. Barnes was ridiculously good that season - as he was for the next 2. He was never lazy that season and was probably the main reason we were so spectacular.

 

As for players who were World Class in that side, Steve Nicol - 87/88. Again, unplayable at times. Beardsley, once he got his confidence was superb, and Ray Houghton was a very, very good footballer, probably not World Class, but excellent - a real Liverpool player. His link up play with Beardsley, Barnes, Whelan and McMahon was brilliant.

 

Best team I've seen in a red shirt that.

[Section_31]

[Jonny83]

To be fair it's hardly a new discussion about how British players are lacking due to youth coaching setups and so on (the old chestnut of playing competitive 11-a-side too early and so on). Obviously there can't be anything genetic to explain British players and teams' underperformance on the world stage, since we Brits are a pretty diverse people anyway, but I don't think you can pin it on tactics at senior level, more youth development when skills are first honed (or not).

 

Which is partly why I can get more excited about the likes of Sterling, Robinson, Flanagan etc. than their older compatriots, as they have come up through our youth academy or we bought them at a young age to better mould them to be Liverpool players, so to speak. Nothing to do with names ending in vowels or -ez.

[Gym Beglin]

I DID annote that list to say I didn't expect them to be 'World Class'.

 

Take this example then, Borja Valero.

At West Brom, completely blended into the shite.

Goes back to Spain, brilliant. Barca were said to be after him recently, he's been a lynchpin in the Villareal side that qualified for the CL.

Made his Spain debut last month, replacing David Silva and providing an assist for Torres.

 

 

Of course, he's a dirty foreigner. But the sentiment is the same, it's the way British clubs operate, our mindset, our reluctance to play football that holds talented players back from thriving and developing.

 

That Veron was shite, so was Deco, Forlan, Crespo, Kluivert, Kleberson, Mutu, Litmanen, Anderson, Julio Baptista, Beletti, Branco, Elano, Mario Jardel, Jo, Robinho, Rochemback, D'Alessandro, Zarate, Beausejour*, Jara*, Asprilla, Boksic, Eduardo, Suker, Baros, Smicer, Brian Laudrup, Karembeu, Ballack, Riedle, Aquilani, Dino Baggio, Materazzi, Panucci, Ravanelli, Rossi, Nakata, Weah, Jonk, Maniche, Postiga, Quaresma, Viana, Dumitrescu, Arshavin, Mendieta, Morientes, Reyes, Tristan and much much more.

 

 

*Both impressing for Chile in World Cup and Copa America.

[Jonny83]

The question then would be, why aren't there more examples of British players going abroad and shining in more enlightened tactical setups? OK I'll admit part of that might be explained by attitude and unwillingness to move abroad, coupled to the fact that with the money in the PL they may have to take a pay cut unless they're off to a big Spanish or Italian club (although our tax laws may balance that out a bit) but I'd guess part of it would be down to the fact that they just aren't wanted.

 

That said, if you look at the likes of that Holtby lad who is a German born and bred but of British descent, I would say it's more a case of nurture than nature, but nurture has to start early.

[Gym Beglin]

Good question Jonny.

 

First, by the time many of them get across there, the bad habits have formed. So if you're a bad player at age 27 and going abroad, chances are you're going to get left behind. Scott fucking Minto went to Benfica for example, hmmm, not cool.

 

Second, there are some good examples of British players going across there and thriving. David Platt. Did he really stand out in this country? Good player, but I see a lot of Platt's around now. He left youngish, developed abroad, and became a proper technical player. He would never have developed in the same way had he stayed in this country IMHO.

 

Third, I think the ones who did go abroad get a bit of a bad press. They left usually because they couldn't adapt to living in another country and picking up another language, not because they played badly for the duration of their stay.

I think Lineker, Hughes, Collins, Hoddle, Lambert, Francis, Beckham, Hately, Waddle, McManaman, Souness, Blissett all were excellent signings for their overseas teams.

 

Lastly, there are some terrific players who never went abroad to a top team but could easily have made it. Sheringham, Le Tissier, Barnes, Beardsley, Scholes, the list goes on and on. You KNOW they would have been a success from a technical and intelligence point of view, but perhaps socially it would have fallen apart for them.

Most foreigners are pushed towards learning English from a young age obviously, so it makes the transition a lot easier for them to come here, as opposed to us going there.

It's the likes of Gazza and Des Walker, early high profile 'failures', who tip the scales towards thinking that they were ALL flops.

Owen came back because he couldn't get a game, not because he was shit when he played. When he played, he usually scored.

[Sloan]

Gazza would have ruled Serie A. He was at the peak of his powers when Lazio originally signed him. Then he goes and fucks his leg up and was never the same again.

[PestiRed]

Gazza was 100% natural talent & 0% brain. He had no chance of making it in Serie A

[Sloan]

Gazza was 100% natural talent & 0% brain. He had no chance of making it in Serie A

Totti is thick as pig shit and he's done alright there.

[Jonny83]

Good question Jonny.

 

First, by the time many of them get across there, the bad habits have formed. So if you're a bad player at age 27 and going abroad, chances are you're going to get left behind. Scott fucking Minto went to Benfica for example, hmmm, not cool.

 

Second, there are some good examples of British players going across there and thriving. David Platt. Did he really stand out in this country? Good player, but I see a lot of Platt's around now. He left youngish, developed abroad, and became a proper technical player. He would never have developed in the same way had he stayed in this country IMHO.

 

Third, I think the ones who did go abroad get a bit of a bad press. They left usually because they couldn't adapt to living in another country and picking up another language, not because they played badly for the duration of their stay.

I think Lineker, Hughes, Collins, Hoddle, Lambert, Francis, Beckham, Hately, Waddle, McManaman, Souness, Blissett all were excellent signings for their overseas teams.

 

Lastly, there are some terrific players who never went abroad to a top team but could easily have made it. Sheringham, Le Tissier, Barnes, Beardsley, Scholes, the list goes on and on. You KNOW they would have been a success from a technical and intelligence point of view, but perhaps socially it would have fallen apart for them.

Most foreigners are pushed towards learning English from a young age obviously, so it makes the transition a lot easier for them to come here, as opposed to us going there.

It's the likes of Gazza and Des Walker, early high profile 'failures', who tip the scales towards thinking that they were ALL flops.

Owen came back because he couldn't get a game, not because he was shit when he played. When he played, he usually scored.

 

On your first point we're probably getting at the same thing from different angles, but yeah if you are shit by your mid 20s chances are it's because you're shit, rather than being misused tactically. It'll be interesting to see how for example Dale Jennings gets on at Bayern having gone there when still young.

 

Suppose it's notable that the last time we had a real glut of quality exports was during the Euro ban, when our best players had an incentive to go test themselves abroad that isn't there now, but that was 20-odd years ago, recently Beckham (and Judas if you take his goals-to-minutes ratio) are the only real ones that stand out at a high level, I won't count Hargreaves as he's basically a Canadian raised in Germany who never played club football here before signing for the Mancs. We've had a few Scots go to Turkey and Russia lately but that's not really a case of them being in demand by the top clubs continent-wide.

 

Going back to the age thing (and more back on topic), one thing about our recent British signings is that while Downing and Adam are hardly spring chickens (although both are a year or two younger than me, fuck I feel old), Henderson and Carroll are a long way from the finished article and all can not in any way be considered over the hill journeymen, so this is a far cry from Woy hiring Konchesky and bidding for Luke Young and Carlton Cole (admittedly not "old", but not exactly showing any promise either)

[Guest ian garro]

Totti is thick as pig shit and he's done alright there.

 

In Gascoignes' case, the 0% brain applied to his professionalism. He was a genius, but he was also an accident waiting to happen. Couple that with the phoneys he hung around with, who basically coaxed him into the lager-lout lifestyle, and I don't believe he was ever going to be a success - even with all the talent he had.

 

Could have been different for him if he'd have come here when he had the chance.

[dennis tooth]

I DID annote that list to say I didn't expect them to be 'World Class'.

 

Take this example then, Borja Valero.

At West Brom, completely blended into the shite.

Goes back to Spain, brilliant. Barca were said to be after him recently, he's been a lynchpin in the Villareal side that qualified for the CL.

Made his Spain debut last month, replacing David Silva and providing an assist for Torres.

 

 

Of course, he's a dirty foreigner. But the sentiment is the same, it's the way British clubs operate, our mindset, our reluctance to play football that holds talented players back from thriving and developing.

 

That Veron was shite, so was Deco, Forlan, Crespo, Kluivert, Kleberson, Mutu, Litmanen, Anderson, Julio Baptista, Beletti, Branco, Elano, Mario Jardel, Jo, Robinho, Rochemback, D'Alessandro, Zarate, Beausejour*, Jara*, Asprilla, Boksic, Eduardo, Suker, Baros, Smicer, Brian Laudrup, Karembeu, Ballack, Riedle, Aquilani, Dino Baggio, Materazzi, Panucci, Ravanelli, Rossi, Nakata, Weah, Jonk, Maniche, Postiga, Quaresma, Viana, Dumitrescu, Arshavin, Mendieta, Morientes, Reyes, Tristan and much much more.

 

 

*Both impressing for Chile in World Cup and Copa America.

 

The ones I have highllighted werent shite at all. Ravanelli scored about 1 in 2, Asprillia was out of this world when he played, Weah was a cracking player in his short time in the Prem and Karembeu was ace also.

 

You can keep the rest tho.

[Redexile]

Very few teams win EVERY game in the season, they're obviously going to go through blips and get poor results somewhere down the line, but to take those couple of games and use it as some sort of proof that Chelsea don't have more match winners than us is ridiculous.

 

By the way, where have I been "wailing"? If you really think that saying our squad still needs to be strengthened is wailing then you're a bigger imbecile than I thought.

Ahh Feromone, apologies for that. I wasn't really having a go at you as a whinger and I would agree with you that we still need to strengthen. I just can't really agree with you on Chelsea as I think both fatty and Drogba are very close to their sell by dates and Malouda, who for me has never achieved his potential, plays in fits and starts. The one who can't be named is a possibility but will we ever see the player he was for us a couple of seasons back?

Anyways getting back to my point, I don't have an issue with people doubting the signings just some posters tend to go on and on or as in the case of the Op on this thread seem to think they know more than anybody else on this subject.

[Carvalho Diablo]

As much as I love that team, reality is that most of the players will not be remembered outside Liverpool but the team as a unit will be. Truly world-class in that squad were

Beardsley

Barnes -although pretty lazy, tended to turn it on for 10 mins during which he'd do something to win the match

Dalglish - didn't play himself that much

Hansen - although starting to struggle with the cumulative effects of injury

 

And you leave Stevie Nicol out ?!

 

The best, most complete full back I've ever seen, you leave him out ?!

 

NEGGED ta fuck.

[PestiRed]

And you leave Stevie Nicol out ?!

 

The best, most complete full back I've ever seen, you leave him out ?!

 

NEGGED ta fuck.

 

Loved Stevie Nicol, incredibly solid & versatile player. My main memory of the first time I went in the Kop as a kid I is some huge, docker-type fucker turning around and saying "Stevie Nicol, only cunt I'd ever turn queer for" (wasn't you, was it?"

 

I'd definitely have him as a great along with Whelan, Molby, Aldo, Lawrenson & Houghton but not in my top, world-class players who could walk into any team

[JaminKibbler]

Where did they all go?

[Sut]

What we need

 

Is Raul Roman Gonzalo Rodriguez Garcia from the Argentinian 2nd division to liven things up

 

Youtube clip?

[Breckside]

Until we introduce summer footy for under 14's downwards the average British player will be technically inferior to southern europeans. How can you possibly play one touch footy and improve your technique when it's freezin cold, windy as fuck and raining sideways?

 

All the best footy I can remember as a kid, was on the park in the summer - whether just messin round with the ball or asking other gangs of lads for a match. You had the opportunity to play on decent grass and try any flick or trick you wanted because you didn't have to worry about the ball getting blown off your toe or losing the feeling in your feet.

 

The likes of Barnsey & Gascoigne had a god given talent that could never be coached or for that matter coached out of them. Regardless of any weather conditions they could do more with a tangerine at their feet than the majority of their peers put together. But my main point relates to the average British player who on balance has limited technical ability. Of course coaching plays a part but where do you start with that one when dildo's like Stuart Pearce get jobs?

 

I know we used to produce loads of talented footballers in years gone by and have no idea why all of a sudden the average British player is so shit, but in order to improve standards I think summer footy would start the ball rolling.

[Gym Beglin]

repped for reading the italian job.

[moz]

If a Spaniard with the passing range of Adam joined you'd be over the moon. If a South American with the same stats and ability as Downing joined you'd also be over the moon. Just because they don't have fancy names doesn't mean they're bad signings.

 

They may not be bad players, but we've certainly paid over the odds for them. A South American with the same stats and ability as Henderson will probably cost one half of the price we're paying. I for one agree with Sloan, and I am worried about the strange obsession with British players we are developing for the last year.

 

Another worrying trend is the seemingly preference we've showing for british players in the youth teams. We seem to be sending a message to the likes of Pacheco and Suso (I recall Mavinga having explicitly made this point) that they're not welcome here, and this would have an impact on the long term prospect in attracting young talents.

 

I am not sure whether this has to do with UEFA's home grown rule but I thought young players don't count. As much as I respect the current regime, the current transfer policy reminds me very much of the Souness era when we're casting away good non-English players for no particular reason (e.g. Houghton, Staunton) and spending over the odds for competent English platers (e.g. Clough, Stewart, etc).

[silverlining]

I'll try and get this car-crash back on track, and also combine Sloan's other favourite topic, Damian Commolli.

 

Why exactly is Kenny concentrating on British players, with the attendant high prices?

 

Or is it just coincidence?

What is the benefit of mainly UK talent?

 

 

And is he "over-ruling" Commolli, or are these signings all joint decisions?

[Guest davelfc]

When you say 'British Players' personally I think Premiership players. They also of course happen to be British.

 

They take no time to adjust to the premiership, true they may need to 'up their game' but that's for the manager and training staff to sort out.

 

They won't complain about the weather, that their wife wants to go home or that they themselves are homesick.

 

You would hope that these players would hit the ground running, maybe get on better in some cases with the rest of the squad. Of course that doesn't mean that the foreign players we have do not, you just read in some teams about it.

 

I've not read the rest of the thread but I'm sure those points have been covered lots of times already.

[PestiRed]

Phil Jones deal shows Fifa new rule drives up price of English talent | Football | The Guardian

 

Manchester United and Liverpool have been forced by new regulatory developments at Fifa and Uefa to inflate their bids for Phil Jones and Jordan Henderson respectively. Less than a decade ago the £20m and £16m that it has required to take Henderson, 20, to Anfield and Jones, 19, to Old Trafford would have broken the British transfer record. Today that combined £36m buys you a single England cap.

 

Clearly, in England, young English talent comes at a premium. There is a simple explanation for this: Fifa is working on introducing a system whereby nine players on every 18-man squad sheet must be homegrown.

 

Buried amid the eulogies for their president, Sepp Blatter, national associations at Fifa's congress this month voted in favour of new youth development measures. Fifa's player‑status committee, headed by the former Football Association chairman, Geoff Thompson, is holding discussions with national associations, the European Clubs Association and Fifpro as it works up the new rules. Domestic leagues have not yet been invited to have their say. Thompson told the congress: "We must use the qualities associated with the 6+5 concept [a proposal under which clubs would have been compelled to field at least six homegrown players] in trying to manage a workable solution."

 

The 6+5 idea died a death amid opposition from clubs and, more importantly, from the European Union, which outlawed regulation according to players' nationality. The compromise agreement football struck with the EU was for eight players from every 25-man squad to have been developed within the fielding club's national association.

 

Until now, Fifa youth-development regulation has not impacted on team selection. But if talks on the new regulations develop as Fifa hopes, then it will. New legislation is expected to be only about a year away. No wonder Henderson and Jones have cost so much.

 

I presume that we're taking these possible rules seriously. And whilst prices are inflated, presumably future re-sale values will be as well

[Sloan]

Phil Jones deal shows Fifa new rule drives up price of English talent | Football | The Guardian

 

Manchester United and Liverpool have been forced by new regulatory developments at Fifa and Uefa to inflate their bids for Phil Jones and Jordan Henderson respectively. Less than a decade ago the £20m and £16m that it has required to take Henderson, 20, to Anfield and Jones, 19, to Old Trafford would have broken the British transfer record. Today that combined £36m buys you a single England cap.

 

Clearly, in England, young English talent comes at a premium. There is a simple explanation for this: Fifa is working on introducing a system whereby nine players on every 18-man squad sheet must be homegrown.

 

Buried amid the eulogies for their president, Sepp Blatter, national associations at Fifa's congress this month voted in favour of new youth development measures. Fifa's player‑status committee, headed by the former Football Association chairman, Geoff Thompson, is holding discussions with national associations, the European Clubs Association and Fifpro as it works up the new rules. Domestic leagues have not yet been invited to have their say. Thompson told the congress: "We must use the qualities associated with the 6+5 concept [a proposal under which clubs would have been compelled to field at least six homegrown players] in trying to manage a workable solution."

 

The 6+5 idea died a death amid opposition from clubs and, more importantly, from the European Union, which outlawed regulation according to players' nationality. The compromise agreement football struck with the EU was for eight players from every 25-man squad to have been developed within the fielding club's national association.

 

Until now, Fifa youth-development regulation has not impacted on team selection. But if talks on the new regulations develop as Fifa hopes, then it will. New legislation is expected to be only about a year away. No wonder Henderson and Jones have cost so much.

 

I presume that we're taking these possible rules seriously. And whilst prices are inflated, presumably future re-sale values will be as well

That's a big presumption. There's no guarantee whatsoever that we'll get our money back if we were to sell Henderson. But I CAN guarantee that we'll never sell Andy Carroll for the ludicrous fee we paid for him.