Our war

[Elmyn Noos]

So sorry mr "I'm an academic who specialises in, amongst other things, the geopolitics of that region."

 

And "Has travelled extensively in that area"

 

 

Fuck off you total bell, do me a favour, set me to ignore, and never bother to reply to anything I post.

 

Your comments are pathetic, and you wouldnt have the first clue about reality if it kicked the shit out of you.

 

Or, if you think you are such a know all hard man of the site, allow me to arrange a meeting with yourself and a few of the lads who have been there and lost real mates and real men to that shithole of the world.

 

Im guessing you wouldnt spout a fucking word in the company of blokes who can tell you of the reality of the world.

 

Fucking academic cunt.

 

 

 

This site is no longer anything to do with being a Red, its full of fucking gobshites who hide away in mummies attic, acting the cunt, and they get away with it.

 

Good effort there Moglet - handled like a true british military man. I particularly like your use of the word academic as an insult. It's interesting that you describe the warzones of the world as "the real world", whereas presumably our mummies' attics aren't the real world. Imagine a world where people tried to think their way around problems rather than just shot each other in the face. How unmanly. I'd like to meet your real men friends when they've finished getting drunk and beating their wives. I bet they're a right laugh.

[Magic Sponge]

I watched it without any emotion whatsoever. If these knobheads want to join up and fuck off and kill whoever the politicians tell them to then that's up to them. Personally I see it is a form of natural selection and anything that stops these illiterate thugs from breeding has to be a good thing. What pisses me off is these current media fad of calling them "our boys" and somehow devolving them of all blame for the regular murdering of foreigners in their own country. It's all the politicians faults?? Fuck off. It's popular to hate politicians, so they get the blame. Tony Blair hasn't popped a bullet into a single iraqi to my knowledge.

 

Also, whilst we're on the subject of the programme, please can someone stop the widows/parents/bereaved girlfriends of these morons coming on TV and whinging:

 

a. Innocent little Billy is dead. He only wanted to help people/make a difference/serve his country,etc.

b. Little Billy didn't get the right equipment. Alright, he has far better training and equipment than the peasant farmers he is trying to kill in their own country, but still, he didn't have the latest gadget that the americans get.

c. Little Billy got no support whatsoever when he left the army and discovered to his dismay that the ability to smash another human being to a pulp is not a particularly transferable skill.

 

and finally.. please stop the names getting read out in the house of commons and on the news. It's insincere, and it's also a bit dull.

 

If you are ex armed forces and are reading this, well done you.

 

A squaddie bummed your bird didn't they.

[Section_31]

I believe the general population has simply learned that they are being used as pawns by rich businessmen and politicians who dont value anybody's life at all but their own.

I realise this maybe a bit of a generalisation but the power of the media seems to have hit home,in most cases,how brutal war really is.

 

Plus theres a lot more living cowards than heroes.

 

The general population wouldn't know a political or military issue if it twatted them in the face, they cry crocodile tears more often than not and say 'our boys this' and 'our boys that', but make no effort to get informed about any of it. We're generally not worth fighting for, but, as I've said in the past - servicemen don't do it for king and country, they often start off doing it for themselves (because, like it or not, the armed forces is about the best educator you can get for certain things, I've met more than a few extremely wealthy engineers and electricians who've started their career in the forces, if I had a kid i'd rather he join the airforce and get a trade than go to uni at £9k a pop) but in the end - in combat at least - they do it for each other.

 

They often feel guilty when they go home because they feel like they're letting their mates down. I don't imagine any of them give a shit about people saying they shouldn't be there, to the same degree they probably don't give a shit when someone calls them a hero. It's a job which becomes a way of life which becomes a brotherhood under fire.

 

As for the reading age thing, I don't doubt for one minute that the military exploit the poor - it was always thus. I was told in no uncertain terms at the age of 15-16 that I would 'struggle' to make officer training in the navy because of my background, regardless of results or whether I went to university. It's that class stratification in the military which truly disgusts me. The idea that Sandhurst turns up to Eton college once a year to recruit a few Ethiopian princes for the PR posters, but then casts a dragnet over all the comps in Burnley to try and catch some cannon fodder.

[Magic Sponge]

 

The general population wouldn't know a political or military issue if it twatted them in the face, they cry crocodile tears more often than not and say 'our boys this' and 'our boys that', but make no effort to get informed about any of it. We're generally not worth fighting for, but, as I've said in the past - servicemen don't do it for king and country, they often start of doing it for themselves (because, like it or not, the armed forces is about the best educator you can get for certain things, I've met more than a few extremely wealthy engineers and electricians who've started their career in the forces) but in the end - in combat at least - they do it for each other.

 

They often feel guilty when they go home because they feel like they're letting their mates down. I don't imagine any of them give a shit about people saying they should be there, to the same degree they probably don't give a shit when someone calls them a hero. It's a job which becomes a way of life which becomes a brotherhood under fire.

 

As for the reading age thing, I don't doubt for one minute that the military exploit the poor - it was always thus. I was told in no uncertain terms at the age of 15-16 that I would 'struggle' to make officer training in the navy because of my background, regardless of results or whether I went to university. It's that class stratification in the military which truly disgusts me. The idea that Sandhurst turns up to Eton college once a year to recruit a few Ethiopian princes for the PR posters, but then casts a dragnet over all the comps in Burnley to try and catch some cannon fodder.

 

Outstanding post as always mate.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

We are roughly in the same place there. I don't believe attacking someone who invades Poland, for instance, should be ruled out though.

 

Ah, but that would have been in our defensive self-interest. Actually, I'm not totally against interventionism when our interests are not paramount. I guess it depends on the circumstances.

 

Tony Blair hasn't popped a bullet into a single iraqi to my knowledge.

 

He has popped a bullet and dropped bombs on many Iraqis, Noos. Just because he didn't pull the trigger, it doesn't make him any less culpable.

 

The thing is, when you're an 'illiterate moron', as we and the US seem to like in our servicemen, then you're much less likely to understand fully the merits of conscientious objection or to have read about the philosophy of war.

 

Yeah sure but thats got to go back to basic education in some ways, the same system we are cutting and making more mediocre by the day it seems. Andy McNab apparently also had a reading age of 11 when he signed up but again as I say, the job does not require an advanced reading age in most cases so I don't think we can draw much from that alone. We certainly are sending drones out but again, its the fact we are sending anyone out to a thrid world country to protect pipelines and resources that being stolen anyway and I'm not sure if it would matter if they were academics or not anyway. They do primarily recruit the cannon fodder from poor communities, again not in doubt anyway, there is no almost about it. However the academics and intellingent folks are busy designing the weapons, drawing up plans to make future wars, writing propaganda supporting articles in the media and so on. It's a big machine that uses both and sadly the end result is the same, even if we reverse the positions of the academics and grunts it doesn't make much difference either. To me it's splitting hairs on something that shouldn't exist in the first place and doesn't lead anywhere much.

I don't think morals are dependant on IQ or reading ages or any other fictional measure of something that has been proven doesn't actually exist except in perception. DR Shipman had good reading age I'm sure.

 

Fair points. My main criticism is, as you seem to agree, toward the recruitment of illiterate, poorly educated young men. It's all a little dirty. A lot dirty.

 

Good effort there Moglet - handled like a true british military man. I particularly like your use of the word academic as an insult. It's interesting that you describe the warzones of the world as "the real world", whereas presumably our mummies' attics aren't the real world. Imagine a world where people tried to think their way around problems rather than just shot each other in the face. How unmanly. I'd like to meet your real men friends when they've finished getting drunk and beating their wives. I bet they're a right laugh.

 

Just wanted to quote that for its brilliance.

 

The general population wouldn't know a political or military issue if it twatted them in the face, they cry crocodile tears more often than not and say 'our boys this' and 'our boys that', but make no effort to get informed about any of it. We're generally not worth fighting for, but, as I've said in the past - servicemen don't do it for king and country, they often start off doing it for themselves (because, like it or not, the armed forces is about the best educator you can get for certain things, I've met more than a few extremely wealthy engineers and electricians who've started their career in the forces, if I had a kid i'd rather he join the airforce and get a trade than go to uni at £9k a pop) but in the end - in combat at least - they do it for each other.

 

They often feel guilty when they go home because they feel like they're letting their mates down. I don't imagine any of them give a shit about people saying they shouldn't be there, to the same degree they probably don't give a shit when someone calls them a hero. It's a job which becomes a way of life which becomes a brotherhood under fire.

 

As for the reading age thing, I don't doubt for one minute that the military exploit the poor - it was always thus. I was told in no uncertain terms at the age of 15-16 that I would 'struggle' to make officer training in the navy because of my background, regardless of results or whether I went to university. It's that class stratification in the military which truly disgusts me. The idea that Sandhurst turns up to Eton college once a year to recruit a few Ethiopian princes for the PR posters, but then casts a dragnet over all the comps in Burnley to try and catch some cannon fodder.

 

Agree with all of this.

[Stu Monty]

Outstanding post as always mate.

 

Sponge, don't want to get into the whole debate about some of the stuff we've gone round and round about in the past, but as someone with recent service, and therefore, presumably, recent experience of the phenomenon, I was wondering what your opinion was on the growing privatised element to our wars. Your opinion on the likes of Blackwater (now Xe) etc?

[Rush 346]

shit I missed this last night - is it on the I player or whatever its called? last weeks was the best thing I had seen on TV for ages

[zigackly]

shit I missed this last night - is it on the I player or whatever its called? last weeks was the best thing I had seen on TV for ages

 

The iplayer link is in the first post.

[VladimirIlyich]

The general population wouldn't know a political or military issue if it twatted them in the face, they cry crocodile tears more often than not and say 'our boys this' and 'our boys that', but make no effort to get informed about any of it. We're generally not worth fighting for, but, as I've said in the past - servicemen don't do it for king and country, they often start off doing it for themselves (because, like it or not, the armed forces is about the best educator you can get for certain things, I've met more than a few extremely wealthy engineers and electricians who've started their career in the forces, if I had a kid i'd rather he join the airforce and get a trade than go to uni at £9k a pop) but in the end - in combat at least - they do it for each other.

 

They often feel guilty when they go home because they feel like they're letting their mates down. I don't imagine any of them give a shit about people saying they shouldn't be there, to the same degree they probably don't give a shit when someone calls them a hero. It's a job which becomes a way of life which becomes a brotherhood under fire.

 

As for the reading age thing, I don't doubt for one minute that the military exploit the poor - it was always thus. I was told in no uncertain terms at the age of 15-16 that I would 'struggle' to make officer training in the navy because of my background, regardless of results or whether I went to university. It's that class stratification in the military which truly disgusts me. The idea that Sandhurst turns up to Eton college once a year to recruit a few Ethiopian princes for the PR posters, but then casts a dragnet over all the comps in Burnley to try and catch some cannon fodder.

 

Maybe the general population dont understand the issues behind it but they do seem to be able to see that its 'bloody dangerous' to say the least and not like Hollywood at all.

As for the US,the same things that have been used to recruit cannon fodder in the past still seem to work today.

[Magic Sponge]

 

Sponge, don't want to get into the whole debate about some of the stuff we've gone round and round about in the past, but as someone with recent service, and therefore, presumably, recent experience of the phenomenon, I was wondering what your opinion was on the growing privatised element to our wars. Your opinion on the likes of Blackwater (now Xe) etc?

 

My opinion of them is quite indifferent to be honest Stu. Mercenaries have played a part in global conflicts throughout history. The media coverage of the Iraq war just shone more light on P.M.C's.

[Stu Monty]

My opinion of them is quite indifferent to be honest Stu. Mercenaries have played a part in global conflicts throughout history. The media coverage of the Iraq war just shone more light on P.M.C's.

 

No noticeable increase in their numbers or issues with them then? I was just wondering as I've read some senior figures from Iraq mentioning how a lot of their conduct was not conducive to the overall policy of not completely fucking off the local population. I was wondering if you had any experience of that.

 

Very dangerous progression of putting more and more private boots on the ground in my opinion, and of more and more of the skilled personel, especially intelligence, going private. Who is a private army loyal to, other than to the bottom line?

[Elmyn Noos]

He has popped a bullet and dropped bombs on many Iraqis, Noos. Just because he didn't pull the trigger, it doesn't make him any less culpable.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't culpable, I'm just saying that the fact the he might have been doesn't mean that the soldiers aren't. For an iraqi to get murdered in an illegal war, someone has to order the troops over (usually one of those darned academics that squaddies heap scorn on whilst following their every command), and someone has to point the gun and pull the trigger. You can't blame one without blaming the other.

[Elmyn Noos]

No noticeable increase in their numbers or issues with them then? I was just wondering as I've read some senior figures from Iraq mentioning how a lot of their conduct was not conducive to the overall policy of not completely fucking off the local population. I was wondering if you had any experience of that.

 

Very dangerous progression of putting more and more private boots on the ground in my opinion, and of more and more of the skilled personel, especially intelligence, going private. Who is a private army loyal to, other than to the bottom line?

 

You think the bottom line is any less worthy a loyalty than the british government?

[Stu Monty]

You think the bottom line is any less worthy a loyalty than the british government?

 

I'm not sure about more worthy but at least, from an entirely self-interested, national strategy, point of view you can control a traditional non-private army to (in theory) defend the people and attack other people who you take a dislike to (or who have shit you want). In theory there's a chain of command leading back to voters.

 

The idea that national governments are no longer neccessary as Wal-Mart and Blackwater are bigger then them, and out of their control is a bit scary. The idea that the CIA continues to move towards the private sector, very much so. You'd have to ask lads that have gone private if they think it's any less noble but I, personally, don't. Noble is what each individual does, public or private wouldn't really change that for me.

[Captain]

I'm not saying he wasn't culpable, I'm just saying that the fact the he might have been doesn't mean that the soldiers aren't. For an iraqi to get murdered in an illegal war, someone has to order the troops over (usually one of those darned academics that squaddies heap scorn on whilst following their every command), and someone has to point the gun and pull the trigger. You can't blame one without blaming the other.

You're basically blaming a soldier for being a soldier. That's a different debate.

[Magic Sponge]

 

No noticeable increase in their numbers or issues with them then? I was just wondering as I've read some senior figures from Iraq mentioning how a lot of their conduct was not conducive to the overall policy of not completely fucking off the local population. I was wondering if you had any experience of that.

 

Very dangerous progression of putting more and more private boots on the ground in my opinion, and of more and more of the skilled personel, especially intelligence, going private. Who is a private army loyal to, other than to the bottom line?

 

I was part of 7th Armoured Brigade, the desert rats, we were the first across the border with the American 1st Marine Expedition force. The private boots were deployed later once the rebuilding program started. Maybe a year or two after me.

 

Due to leaving the Army not long after my tour, we were told that this was always a possible career change if we seriously wanted it.

 

From my knowledge, the only conflict they've had major participation in, was against the Somalian Pirates. I'd be very surprised if they danced to the beat of the political drum in Iraq or Afghanistan. They definately played no part in Bosnia or Kosavo. Maybe because we were under NATO command??

[dennis tooth]

I'm not saying he wasn't culpable, I'm just saying that the fact the he might have been doesn't mean that the soldiers aren't. For an iraqi to get murdered in an illegal war, someone has to order the troops over (usually one of those darned academics that squaddies heap scorn on whilst following their every command), and someone has to point the gun and pull the trigger. You can't blame one without blaming the other.

 

Thats how I see it, theres a double edged sword here and two sides. The brilliant mathematician designing weapons to inflict maximum damage as cold as ice or a terrified confused and brainwashed young squaddie told by the academic media and academic politicians and his class based armed forces superiors to pull that trigger. Theres a whole system at work here and everyone is sucked in, to people paying taxes that fund wars and bankers bubble profits etc on every level so you will not find any sensible answer until the overarching structure is destroyed as the academic predators will always find someone less informed and politically aware to carry out their bidding. Like SD. Probably the perpetuation of his small minded views kill many more than any one squaddie and it is massively more destructive than any weapon. As Einstein says there is a weapon more powerful than all the nukes in the world, our minds. That was before the cold war though I suppose theres more at Fukishima than in the world when he said that. I stand by my point though as thats all anyone has to do is stand up to their shaky grip on power instead of sleeping so long as those in power keep them worrying about small things they are ok but they know reality can shatter that and nature is warming up to take on the corporation or face its death. The corporations are destructive to nature but are also destructive to themselves so its simply a race against time and every little helps or hinders. What they simply do not understand is what is in front of their eyes and ties, that their success makes failure more likely by magnitude until it becomes inevitable and our dependance upon them is like sitting on your magic carpet on the roof of your house and deconstructing your house beneath you, you never know though, you might just hover if you can find a 'technological solution' that involves removing the basement and foundations.

[Stu Monty]

I was part of 7th Armoured Brigade, the desert rats, we were the first across the border with the American 1st Marine Expedition force. The private boots were deployed later once the rebuilding program started. Maybe a year or two after me.

 

Due to leaving the Army not long after my tour, we were told that this was always a possible career change if we seriously wanted it.

 

From my knowledge, the only conflict they've had major participation in, was against the Somalian Pirates. I'd be very surprised if they danced to the beat of the political drum in Iraq or Afghanistan. They definately played no part in Bosnia or Kosavo. Maybe because we were under NATO command??

 

Mate, there were shitloads of private staff in Iraq. I'm not sure exactly how the rebuliding program is defined but given that years and years into the war there was, well, still a war, I think it's fair to say they were involved in the conflict. I can dig out figures if you demand them but I really can't be arsed.

 

The massacre at Nissour square was Blackwater, for instance. They also had Negroponte building teams disturbingly similar to the ones he built in El Salvador. And as for the amounts spunked on mercenaries in "Private security" over there, it's mindblowing.

 

I also find it disturbing that they are unnacountable. If part of a national deployment does something fucked up he can be prosecuted, court-marshalled etc. The US actually wrote in protections that meant the private contractors were completely unnacountable and couldn't be tried in Iraq or the US. Now that's some worrying shit, in my opinion.

 

Fair enough if you didn't see much evidence of it, I was just curious to see if you had.

[Section_31]

I was part of 7th Armoured Brigade, the desert rats, we were the first across the border with the American 1st Marine Expedition force. The private boots were deployed later once the rebuilding program started. Maybe a year or two after me.

 

Due to leaving the Army not long after my tour, we were told that this was always a possible career change if we seriously wanted it.

 

From my knowledge, the only conflict they've had major participation in, was against the Somalian Pirates. I'd be very surprised if they danced to the beat of the political drum in Iraq or Afghanistan. They definately played no part in Bosnia or Kosavo. Maybe because we were under NATO command??

 

I could be wrong but I think a lot of it was down to Dick Cheney. They used Blackwater troops in New Orleans to 'keep order' in the aftermath of Katrina. I'd actually be interested to know how much their use has changed since Obama came in.