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However, I think what Kenneth Clarke send needs to be taken in context. He doesn't appear to be making any judgement as to the seriousness of the effect the rape has on the victim. He's looking at it from a purely legalistic point of view, for me. The bottom line is, legally, some rapes are more (or less) serious than others. The CPS/judges will highlight any "aggravating factors" to the offence. What is an "aggravating factor"? Something that makes something more serious than it would be without the existence of that factor.

 

Aggravating factors?

 

How's this for an aggravating factor? If you date rape someone you have to buy the drug first, possibly before you have even identified a victim. Then you have to drug them and wait for it to take effect. Then you rape them.

 

With the "violent" rape you just jump a woman in a park or wherever. That could possibly be construed as a crime of passion. Maybe a guy is walking along not even thinking about rape and suddenly he is overcome by madness and just does it.

 

But the date rape way requires planning. It requires set up. So is there not an argument, if we are differentiating, that date rape is worse than the other one?

 

Now I don't believe either one is worse. I believe they are equally as bad. But for those saying it's worse with violence, I would say it can be just as bad with the amount of planning that goes into date rape.

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Bit of a shame really because Labour will pile into this, to get him sacked, and then we'll get some fucking lunatic in his place. But I suppose that's what they want, he's quite electable in the eyes of a lot of reasonable people, as opposed to whichever cunt they might put in his place.

 

Makes you realise what a strange old game politics is though, that someone can be put in charge of formulating an entire country's justice policy purely because he used to be a lawyer. I suppose that's better than Osborne being put in charge of the economy though, even though his work experience amonts to a stint as a data entry clerk for the NHS (surely he should be put in charge of health reform?)

 

These are basically just blokes, many of them nothing special in the brains department, and with absolutely nothing in their locker that makes them qualified to tear up and alter whole facets of how a country works. Baffling really, when you think about it.

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Aggravating factors?

 

How's this for an aggravating factor? If you date rape someone you have to buy the drug first, possibly before you have even identified a victim. Then you have to drug them and wait for it to take effect. Then you rape them.

 

With the "violent" rape you just jump a woman in a park or wherever. That could possibly be construed as a crime of passion. Maybe a guy is walking along not even thinking about rape and suddenly he is overcome by madness and just does it.

 

But the date rape way requires planning. It requires set up. So is there not an argument, if we are differentiating, that date rape is worse than the other one?

 

Now I don't believe either one is worse. I believe they are equally as bad. But for those saying it's worse with violence, I would say it can be just as bad with the amount of planning that goes into date rape.

 

Yes, aggravating factors. Just to clarify, I didn't say that date rapes cases weren't serious and didn't have aggravating factors.

 

However, I still maintain what Clarke said has been totally taken out of context and has been jumped on. The reduction for early pleas policy is set to apply to the majority of crimes. For me, Labour have jumped on Clarke's rape comments and are playing politics with a very sensitive subject. They should know better than this.

 

S1 Rape:Sexual offences: Sentencing Manual: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

 

The law clearly differentiates between the "seriousness" of rapes. What Clarke was doing for me was highlighting this. For once, I agree with a Tory and think his words have been spun out of all proportion.

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Aggravating factors?

 

How's this for an aggravating factor? If you date rape someone you have to buy the drug first, possibly before you have even identified a victim. Then you have to drug them and wait for it to take effect. Then you rape them.

 

With the "violent" rape you just jump a woman in a park or wherever. That could possibly be construed as a crime of passion. Maybe a guy is walking along not even thinking about rape and suddenly he is overcome by madness and just does it.

 

But the date rape way requires planning. It requires set up. So is there not an argument, if we are differentiating, that date rape is worse than the other one?

 

Now I don't believe either one is worse. I believe they are equally as bad. But for those saying it's worse with violence, I would say it can be just as bad with the amount of planning that goes into date rape.

 

You must have a different understanding of date rape than me mate. Date rape could just as easily be two people going out on a date going home together ending up in bed and him nmot stopping when she says no. The drugging and all that carry in is exactly the same as the guy in the bushes. The honest bloke going to far is guilty but to a far lesser degree. Still date rape.

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You must have a different understanding of date rape than me mate. Date rape could just as easily be two people going out on a date going home together ending up in bed and him nmot stopping when she says no. The drugging and all that carry in is exactly the same as the guy in the bushes. The honest bloke going to far is guilty but to a far lesser degree. Still date rape.

 

Yeah fair enough I did have my wires crossed. But then both must involve some kind of or threat of violence, otherwise the woman wouldn't just lay and take it.

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Storm in a tea-cup. It's only sex at the end of the day. All the usual neurotic bra-burners out in force because some man didn't automatically say flog 'em and hang 'em all as soon as the r word is mentioned.

 

Yeah, it's a crime, and yes it's unpleasant and ill-mannered, but it's hardly murder.

 

Ken Clarke is alright for a tory. I've always liked him and not making him leader to go up against Blair is the main reason we had a labour government for so long. The media sniffed a little blood here and the politicians jumped on it like a horny loner on a park jogger.

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Guest Numero Veinticinco

Nothing? Women all over the country were deeply offended. Still, I'm sure you know much better how raped women feel about those comments than they do.

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Storm in a tea-cup. It's only sex at the end of the day. All the usual neurotic bra-burners out in force because some man didn't automatically say flog 'em and hang 'em all as soon as the r word is mentioned.

 

Yeah, it's a crime, and yes it's unpleasant and ill-mannered, but it's hardly murder.

Ken Clarke is alright for a tory. I've always liked him and not making him leader to go up against Blair is the main reason we had a labour government for so long. The media sniffed a little blood here and the politicians jumped on it like a horny loner on a park jogger.

 

unpleasant?ill mannered? fucking hell you make it sound like someone stole a womens seat on public transport.

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unpleasant?ill mannered? fucking hell you make it sound like someone stole a womens seat on public transport.

 

It's clearly a little more serious than that, but unless you were mentally unstable to start with, it takes about the same amount of time to recover from.

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Nothing? Women all over the country were deeply offended. Still, I'm sure you know much better how raped women feel about those comments than they do.

 

No they're not. This is politics - most women won't even know it's happened unless Jade Goody's ex mentions it on The Only Way is Essex or some gossip mag covers it.

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I feel a bit sorry for Clarke. He's quite right to distinguish between a boyfriend having sex with an underage girl where there is ostensibly consent, even though she's not legally capable of giving it, and actual rape. Changing the wording of the offence from unlawful sexual intercourse and classifying it as statutory rape - following the US needlessly - was a step backwards for me.

 

As for the different levels of rape, every criminal offence in this country has aggrevating and mitigating factors, so the courts already sentence them at different levels. He's not talking about something that doesn't already exist.

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Makes you realise what a strange old game politics is though, that someone can be put in charge of formulating an entire country's justice policy purely because he used to be a lawyer. I suppose that's better than Osborne being put in charge of the economy though, even though his work experience amonts to a stint as a data entry clerk for the NHS (surely he should be put in charge of health reform?)

 

These are basically just blokes, many of them nothing special in the brains department, and with absolutely nothing in their locker that makes them qualified to tear up and alter whole facets of how a country works. Baffling really, when you think about it.

 

I'd say pretty fucked up scary shit than baffling.

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I feel a bit sorry for Clarke. He's quite right to distinguish between a boyfriend having sex with an underage girl where there is ostensibly consent, even though she's not legally capable of giving it, and actual rape. Changing the wording of the offence from unlawful sexual intercourse and classifying it as statutory rape - following the US needlessly - was a step backwards for me.

 

As for the different levels of rape, every criminal offence in this country has aggrevating and mitigating factors, so the courts already sentence them at different levels. He's not talking about something that doesn't already exist.

 

I agree. Also, if the Women for Anti-Bloke Shrieks of Offended Outrage and Tantrums (WABS.OOT) would shut the fuck up for ten minutes a serious debate might be in danger of breaking out about the convictions rates for these offences. The point of the policy is not to belittle the crime, but to try and put pressure on offenders to confess early and spare the victims the trial in what is always going to be a very difficult case to prove.

 

Silly bitches. It's no wonder they get raped.

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Nothing? Women all over the country were deeply offended. Still, I'm sure you know much better how raped women feel about those comments than they do.

 

 

He had a fair point that not all rapes are the same, he just expressed it poorly, as human beings sometimes do. If all rapes were as severe as each other, then they would all get life sentences.

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I think the thread missed the point, what clarke was trying to do is get convictions on the cheap to make the tories look good, rather than administer proper punishment they are trying to downgrade the crime because they can't be arsed paying for proper trials to secure proper convictions as they want to spend the money, our money on some other right wing gunk like nukes or bankers.

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aws pretty much nailed it spot on, although his use of the word "discount" wasn't the best word he could of used. Rape's on discount folks.... if you fess up early.

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Guest Numero Veinticinco
he just expressed it poorly, as human beings sometimes do.

 

Yeah, poor tongue tied Ken Clarke. Ken Clarke who has spent 30 years as a QC, 40 years as a member of parliament, Paymaster General, Health Sec., Education Sec., Home Sec., Justice Sec., Business Sec., or Chancellor of the fucking Exchequer. The poor guy is well known for his poor ability for speaking in public.

 

It's probably his lack of experience that lead him to refer to some rapes as the 'serious' kind and try to separate 'Date Rape' from those, and talk about 'classic rape'. Not offensive at all. Not even when he laughed when questioned about it. Women, especially those who have been raped, seem to be loving his comments.

 

He deserves the condemnation over this. To dismiss those people's reactions as 'nonsense' and call his actions 'nothing' is pretty shocking on your part, I' have to say. Well, I guess I don't have to, but I will.

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