Tory Country

[Scooby Dudek]

10 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

It's interesting that you say most people support the NHS and that's a left wing view, but I'd caveat that with I think they value it because it's good for them, rather than wider society.

 

My uncle is a Tory I suspect. Lives in Fareham, was in the Navy, fond of "Maggie", went to bluecoat before he signed up and fucked off, probably calls Johnson "Boris". 

 

He got into footy in the 90s when it became trendy, and he'd say stuff like "oooh, Petit and Vieira, what players", and you'd think oh fair enough, let's have some footy chat, but if you got into any more detail he'd panic and leave the room.

 

He's the same with politics. He'd say stuff like "ooh Corbyn antisemitism", "labour maxed out the credit card", "say what you want about thatcher but she had her beliefs and she stuck to them." His political views aren't even views, they're just sentences and statements which are begged borrowed and stolen.

 

Last time I went down there to stay aboit three years ago, him and my aunty would sit there all morning counting out their pills, I mean he must take about 50 a day for his heart, diabetes, all of it. She's the same. Every other day one of them is at a clinic.

 

I don't think people like that  view the NHS as something they're prepared to fund for the betterment of society, more something that "owes them" in some way. 

 

The Tory backbone is that age group and they'll all be the same, in fact if we did ever have an aggressive privatisation of the NHS where you were penalised for pre existing conditions, it'd probably be the only thing that'd change their vote, purely out of self preservation.

I don't disagree with anything you have written.

My point about the NHS, is it is a perfect example of left ideology, everyone pays something for everyone's benefit. Once people are exposed to this left wing benefit, for selfish reasons or not, they then want to keep it because it benefits them. Obviously I would very simply argue all left wing policies would do the same. 

The Labour party go on about the NHS, the Tories use it for propaganda, NHS test and trace. It is immensely popular, despite being a loony left idea. If falls in with on the blind test people support left leaning policies, then vote against. 

Your uncle would no doubt oppose a formation of the NHS now but once they have experienced it he does not want it taken away, again probably for selfish reasons.

 

It is a perfect example of how people like these things but would oppose them when it comes to the propaganda war that is being fought. That was kind of my point in relation to people voting against their own best interest, like opposition to the NHS, if it wasn't already here.

 

People vote Tory, foolishly against their own best interest IMO, when they actually benefit from and promote left policies, this does not make it a Tory country. Just an under informed voting base.

 

Bit waffle above, but hopefully I finally got to my point. 

[mattyq]

Another important factor in all of this is that the young and the disadvantaged just don't vote

Some of them vote, obviously, but if they voted in anywhere like the same numbers as the over 60s then we'd have perpetual Lab Govt

[Scooby Dudek]

3 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Another important factor in all of this is that the young and the disadvantaged just don't vote

Some of them vote, obviously, but if they voted in anywhere like the same numbers as the over 60s then we'd have perpetual Lab Govt

Apathy is the friend of the right. It is a reason the Mail etc like to lump any sort of corruption all together. They are all the same, so what is the point.

 

It is another reason, for me, why Labour should really bang the anti corruption/tax avoidance drum. 

[skend04]

7 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Another important factor in all of this is that the young and the disadvantaged just don't vote

Some of them vote, obviously, but if they voted in anywhere like the same numbers as the over 60s then we'd have perpetual Lab Govt

These are the voters you need to enthuse but everyone is so cynical that saying it and achieving it are 2 different things. It's just depressing to see that Starmer hasn't even attempted to reach out to these people. 

[Ranxerox]

21 hours ago, Dicko said:

If 128,000 deaths on their watch won't convince people then nothing will.

Face it the British working class are the most terminally stupid people on the face of the planet.

I hear you but for most voters that's something that happened to other people. Labour obviously needs a major overhaul but there is no way the Tories don't fall back to earth eventually and make the situation much more competitive. Some on hear are talking like the Tories will rule consecutively for the next 1000 years. 

[Gnasher]

37 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Another important factor in all of this is that the young and the disadvantaged just don't vote

Some of them vote, obviously, but if they voted in anywhere like the same numbers as the over 60s then we'd have perpetual Lab Govt

Used to be true, not so clearcut now,

 

 

[Section_31]

49 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Another important factor in all of this is that the young and the disadvantaged just don't vote

Some of them vote, obviously, but if they voted in anywhere like the same numbers as the over 60s then we'd have perpetual Lab Govt

Yep, when you look at how Corbyn and Sanders sort of started to garner mass support at around the same time, you can see that the more people felt there was a movement building, the more they felt compelled to take an interest. There's a real science to this "nobody cares", "what's the point". 

[Chairman Meow]

23 hours ago, scottthecanuck said:

For all of those who are despondent 

 

Renewal of Labour is inevitable

The Tories will overreach 

People will become disillusioned when the Tories inevitably choose to serve the interests of their donors at the expense of their new voters

 

2016/2017 was a grim and hopeless period in US politics for progressives, but 2017 and 2018 brought many new and exciting persons into the fight AOC, (and the Squad), Stacey Abrams, and a host of others. They cleared out the old sclerotic deadwood and forced the remaining establishment more to the left. 

 

In many ways Obama was a more radical promise than Biden but in reality Biden is governing in a much more authentic progressive way, he learned from Obama's misplaced caution and conventionality. 

 

Sometimes you don't succeed in life until you get a swift kick in the ass from reality first, that is potentially where Labour is now. 

 

I think that's ultimately what happened and led to Blair getting in. Reality is that it always seems like Labour get in because people get fed up of the Tories rather than Labour actually doing anything.

 

I'm 41 now and 68% of my lifetime has been under a Conservative government, but seemingly to the vast majority of the public they are not responsible for any of the problems we have. Hope that we'll somehow one day see a movement towards a fairer society or at the very least a society that aims towards that are pretty much zero in me. 

 

The overwhelming feeling I get is that the reality is that the majority simply couldn't give a fuck other than what effects them directly. Or it's an element of that being caused by the kind of environment Section mentions, so people get to the point of thinking "nothings going to change so I have to protect myself" kind of mentality. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Scooby Dudek said:

It's mad, in blind tests people seem to support left leaning policies, most popular institution is the NHS. Yet they go in and vote Tory. 

 

I know it is only individual cases but even the media the last few days there have been stories or;

 

I rely on food banks, therefore I will vote Tory.

Shameful libraries and parks have closed, therefore I will vote Tory.

 

I know I have posted previously, but I had exactly the same going around numerous constituencies in 2919. 

People are voting because they don't want the cuts and poverty but are voting for the people who imposed the cuts and increased the poverty.

 

The above is why I believe we are not a natural Tory country, but we need to, somehow, control the narrative. 

 

I agree with @Preston Red we really need to start calling the cunts out at every and any opportunity.

There was a thing on one of the morning breakfast shows that I overhead and they were talking about someone from Hartlepool saying they'd voted Conservative because they wanted more police on the streets and the NHS to be looked after. 

[Denny Crane]

I get the anger but no point blaming people for not understanding how the the state works. It's part of Labour's job to explain how all this interacts and how local government is starved of cash. In fact Labour actually make this worse in some cases by putting out misleading messages. **(There are also some very corrupt or mismanaged local councils which doesn't help either**. 

[Bruce Spanner]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

Yep, when you look at how Corbyn and Sanders sort of started to garner mass support at around the same time, you can see that the more people felt there was a movement building, the more they felt compelled to take an interest. There's a real science to this "nobody cares", "what's the point". 

A huge part of Trumps electoral success if they identified which voters from the Democrats they could ‘sit down’ and make them unlikely to vote as they’d bombard them with massages about the democrats and how they doing well, or more sinisterly they would show them messages based on the democrats policy in really, really dull ways to breed apathy.

 

As a plan it’s great, if you’re a cunt,  as you’re sitting your opponents down.

[Scooby Dudek]

2 hours ago, Chairman Meow said:

 

I think that's ultimately what happened and led to Blair getting in. Reality is that it always seems like Labour get in because people get fed up of the Tories rather than Labour actually doing anything.

 

There was a thing on one of the morning breakfast shows that I overhead and they were talking about someone from Hartlepool saying they'd voted Conservative because they wanted more police on the streets and the NHS to be looked after. 

Again that is the point I am arguing.

 

People vote Tory, must be a Tory country.

Why did you vote Tory? To increase police numbers (after 20000 cut by Tories) and protect NHS (after underfunding and privatisation by Tories). 

We don't have an informed, engaged electorate. I blame the lying Tories, the lying media and the incompetent Labour for this. 

My instinct is to blame the ignorant electorate for this, but the system is rigged to purposely keep them ignorant.

 

Labour don't offer change so the best chance of electoral success is people get fed up of the Tories, which again I blame the failing on the propaganda war and labours inability to overcome it, offer an alternative.

[an tha]

8 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

It's mad, in blind tests people seem to support left leaning policies, most popular institution is the NHS. Yet they go in and vote Tory. 

 

I know it is only individual cases but even the media the last few days there have been stories or;

 

I rely on food banks, therefore I will vote Tory.

Shameful libraries and parks have closed, therefore I will vote Tory.

 

I know I have posted previously, but I had exactly the same going around numerous constituencies in 2919. 

People are voting because they don't want the cuts and poverty but are voting for the people who imposed the cuts and increased the poverty.

 

The above is why I believe we are not a natural Tory country, but we need to, somehow, control the narrative. 

 

I agree with @Preston Red we really need to start calling the cunts out at every and any opportunity.

This is a decent piece on why this country is full of tory cunts IMO.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/why-does-england-vote-tory/

 

 

[Marko121]

.

[Marko121]

 

this is it. Worked out how to do it. Astonishing 

[Elite]

10 minutes ago, Marko121 said:

 

this is it. Worked out how to do it. Astonishing 

So that's where the ship from the Goonies ended up. The Fratellis have let themselves go.

[Anubis]

I thought the Mitchell brothers had moved into fishing.

[Jairzinho]

It appears that job number one for Labour has to be informing the public they aren't currently in government.

[Marko121]

Tories have a compliant media.  At no point in that clip does the interviewer point out who was in power for 11 years 

[sir roger]

3 hours ago, Marko121 said:

Tories have a compliant media.  At no point in that clip does the interviewer point out who was in power for 11 years 

Aye , the cunt is nodding along with them.

[Scooby Dudek]

3 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

It appears that job number one for Labour has to be informing the public they aren't currently in government.

 

3 hours ago, Marko121 said:

Tories have a compliant media.  At no point in that clip does the interviewer point out who was in power for 11 years 

Same with that "Labour voting" landlord who throw Starmer out because he closed pubs and made people wear masks. Does the ignorance of his bleating get told to him ? No, of course not, he gets onto virtually any news program possible as the voice of the British public. 

 

 

People say the media do not have as much influence, due to lowering newspaper sales, but they influence as much by what they don't say as what they do say. 

 

 

[Section_31]

4 hours ago, Marko121 said:

 

this is it. Worked out how to do it. Astonishing 

We're fucked.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

If Labour have run that council then surely they are right to be pointing there ire at Labour instead of the Tories?

 

I know I blame Labour for the fuck up's they do in Liverpool, so why wouldn't people in the "Red Wall" areas blame Labour where their councils have run things.

 

As much as the Tories have made austerity cuts, Labour have failed to stand up for the people on a consistent basis in those areas where they have allowed themselves to fail their public.

 

Labour and their councils really need to own how they have contributed to this collasal fuck up.

 

I am not endorsing the Tories actions and behavoirs in any way, but when you have had a party run your town/city for x amount of years and it's been a solid decline for a number of years, then I don't blame people for being disillusioned, feeling ignored by Labour or even now feeling politically homeless.

 

I also, think labelling those, like the two fellas in the video as thick doesn't help the marraitve in any way either. They are the ones who have been impacted by all of this ,and are speaking from their own experiences and understanding of their world, which may not be as articulate as many on here or out in the real world, but it's their truth. And who are we to say they are wrong?

 

Instead of saying how dumbfounded by their voting we are or by slagging them or what they say in short interviews, maybe we should try and aid them to change their way of thinking. People in places like Hartlepool don't really show an interest in what's happening in Westminister, they are only interested in what's happening in their town, which is on or has been on a Labour watch.

 

 

[Marko121]

11 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

If Labour have run that council then surely they are right to be pointing there ire at Labour instead of the Tories?

 

I know I blame Labour for the fuck up's they do in Liverpool, so why wouldn't people in the "Red Wall" areas blame Labour where their councils have run things.

 

As much as the Tories have made austerity cuts, Labour have failed to stand up for the people on a consistent basis in those areas where they have allowed themselves to fail their public.

 

Labour and their councils really need to own how they have contributed to this collasal fuck up.

 

I am not endorsing the Tories actions and behavoirs in any way, but when you have had a party run your town/city for x amount of years and it's been a solid decline for a number of years, then I don't blame people for being disillusioned, feeling ignored by Labour or even now feeling politically homeless.

 

I also, think labelling those, like the two fellas in the video as thick doesn't help the marraitve in any way either. They are the ones who have been impacted by all of this ,and are speaking from their own experiences and understanding of their world, which may not be as articulate as many on here or out in the real world, but it's their truth. And who are we to say they are wrong?

 

Instead of saying how dumbfounded by their voting we are or by slagging them or what they say in short interviews, maybe we should try and aid them to change their way of thinking. People in places like Hartlepool don't really show an interest in what's happening in Westminister, they are only interested in what's happening in their town, which is on or has been on a Labour watch.

 

 

While I see what you are saying there, generally some Council's ( Liverpool ) don't always use the money they do get wisely all the things mentioned there ( Hospitals, Prison's, Police ) all come under central control and are not the responsibility of the local authority.

 

I always think of it in a (too ) simplistic way: I am old now and come from an old fashioned family.  My arl fella used to give my ma "keep" and she would buy food etc.  When he wanted to be an arsehole, he would give her less " keep " and still expect the best.  Us kids ( not knowing how this works ) would moan that we didn't have proper this or proper that at times, not realising that my ma was busting her gut whilst my arl fella was making a point and being an arsehole.  None of this was pointed out to them.

 

What this highlights is that we have an ill informed electorate and the Tories like it that way.  the press help them do that 

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Marko121 said:

While I see what you are saying there, generally some Council's ( Liverpool ) don't always use the money they do get wisely all the things mentioned there ( Hospitals, Prison's, Police ) all come under central control and are not the responsibility of the local authority.

 

I always think of it in a (too ) simplistic way: I am old now and come from an old fashioned family.  My arl fella used to give my ma "keep" and she would buy food etc.  When he wanted to be an arsehole, he would give her less " keep " and still expect the best.  Us kids ( not knowing how this works ) would moan that we didn't have proper this or proper that at times, not realising that my ma was busting her gut whilst my arl fella was making a point and being an arsehole.  None of this was pointed out to them.

 

What this highlights is that we have an ill informed electorate and the Tories like it that way.  the press help them do that 

Yeah, it’s what the Tories do. They squeeze the life out of everything and direct money to their donors. It’s filthy. They still from the country for their own long term benefit. Unfortunately, it looks like they’re in it for the long haul. With them winning in places that Labour used to count on, there’s no chance. I think we are in for some very dark times before things eventually break. 

[Moctezuma]

21 hours ago, scottthecanuck said:

I hear you but for most voters that's something that happened to other people. Labour obviously needs a major overhaul but there is no way the Tories don't fall back to earth eventually and make the situation much more competitive. Some on hear are talking like the Tories will rule consecutively for the next 1000 years. 

I do think if you are looking at the demographics though that the likelihood of Labour/left of center coalition victory in 2024/2029 is pretty remote, it won't be until the 2030's that the large property owning chunk of baby boomers will start to 'drop out' of the electorate, depending on the accuracy of the actuary tables. The forcing's from climate change may also start altering our politics pretty substantially by that point as well, but potentially not in a left wing direction.

 

A reminder that for Labour to have a Majority of one MP they would have to hold all their pre-existing seats and win another 125 which would represent the largest electoral swing in history.

 

This is very doom laden, but there is a reasonable possibility of something resembling Hungary occurring.