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Hold on, they won, they cant be that stupid, maybe representative democracy has a direct outcome of personality, not policy, politics.

 

Educate people to vote better? Yeah give them the vote then, the real vote not the appoint a representative five year thing so much?

What are you on about? Don't twist my words to say I would educate them to vote a certain way. I was talking about the fact that we don't seem to have people who can challenge anything further than the way someone appears. What we should teach people is to be more inquisitive, understand what it means to vote. They can vote for who they like.

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Guest Pistonbroke

Blaming the people will only fall into the trap of repeating past mistakes

 

It is the people who voted, it is also the people who follow the media and programmes on TV to educate themselves on far too many topics. 

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I'm honestly struggling to put into words how fucking stupid this is.

 

Politicians don't answer questions directly because they are scared they will look stupid because they may have to go back on it later and therefore lose credibility and votes.  In your head you seem to have twisted this into the public preferring politicians that don't answer questions directly because that means they don't have to hold them to account when it turns out it's a lie which they don't know if it is yet because what's been proposed hasn't actually even happened.  Absolutely bizarre.

 

Specifically you are saying Labour lost votes because they said no to a coalition with the SNP.  The only votes they would potentially lose for this would be in Scotland which wouldn't have made any difference anyway because the SNP (a party on the left would vote against anything tory anyway) total number of seats still doesn't get near the majority of the tories if they had been won by labour.  Unless you are suggesting there are English voters who would be turned away from Labour because they ruled out a coalition with SNP and just decided to either turn Tory or not vote at all?

 

The point which you have spectacularly missed is that if Labour hadn't have categorically said no the right wing tabloids would have absolutely slaughtered Labour for not ruling it out and told general public that they were going to be run by the SNP.  The tories would have won by a landslide.  They won by a landslide anyway and if you think that's because they ruled out a coalition with the SNP you are a fruitcake.

 

Jesus... you're really struggling with this simple premise today aren't you?

 

At no point did I say the public prefer politicians that don't answer. The twisting is being done in your head, not mine. I said it's best not to be so firm in rebutting the SNP's offer. Just play the game.

 

Why would the only votes they lose be in Scotland? He turned down the option to get the Tories out. That potentially riles many a Labour voter.

 

Marginal seats could have been won from the Tories (or not lost in a lot of cases) therefore reducing the majority and making it very difficult for the Tories to form a government.

 

...and the point I have spectacularly missed is not much of a point at all is it? It's conjecture from someone who seemingly doesn't have the ability to read what people write.

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Dude, playing it cool with the SNP did not cost Labour votes in England. Really, it didn't. It's a really odd view on things. As I said before, the Tories were delighted to use the idea of the Scots having a say down here to annoy English people.

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You don't think that rejecting the almost guaranteed option to get the Tories out didn't sway the option of some floating voters in England? I think it would have.

 

not guaranteed at all.  The likelihood is that they would have won even fewer seats in England.  So, no, they weren't going to win this election no matter what.

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I just don't understand where these "costed" votes you are on about were going?

 

"I'm not going to vote labour because they've refused to go into coalition with the SNP to guarantee getting the tories out, what I'm going to do is actually vote tory or not vote at all."

 

It just doesn't make any sense.

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It is the people who voted, it is also the people who follow the media and programmes on TV to educate themselves on far too many topics.

Its not the people you should blame fancy legitimising the system by partakibg in it then complaining when you didnt win thsts a bittrr loset lecturing the people they lost to its a system imposed on them as much as you.

Some have called them selfish maybe they thought ed just looked like a retard and would tank the economy by tryna take on the system from the inside with no clue how to do it and leaving us as his victims at the wayside. Maybe people are tired of the phoney MP system of passing the batons for the relay to one man.

Democracy doesnt work if you hand it over only to a small group to practice it. As long as thats the case you are asking to be bumraped by any one of them you elect. And theres a long queue of them. All waitibng for agenda bumfun. Its human nature a natural reaction to too much power is megalomania and corruption.

The power needs to be equal among all or there is no point complaining striking rioting ruining our own jobs and neighbourhoods its much easier to them than if we unite. Representatives elected only divide the nation into tribes little different to medievil lines.

Labour like any other party will not give back that power as it means the end of them so theyd rather you vote tory than not at all to consent and legitimise the system. Theyd rather be in opposition than the jobcentre tryna claim expenses look at the names chuvk eevette edward which chump to champion has me gazumped such gargantuan!

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I just don't understand where these "costed" votes you are on about were going?

 

"I'm not going to vote labour because they've refused to go into coalition with the SNP to guarantee getting the tories out, what I'm going to do is actually vote tory or not vote at all."

 

It just doesn't make any sense.

 

As I said in my original post, the UKIP and Green votes were up massively. As was, obviously, SNP - where previously Labour held seats. It didn't take many seats to weaken the Tory majority and they would've struggled to create a coalition. Which is what the polls were predicting, no?

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Labour who privatised building hospitals under a pfi scheme designed to bankrupt public hospital finances that has seen costs soar 10 gold since blairs reforms the extra money going to bupa etc?

The labour that relaxed banking regulations and tied the nation to a housing bubble created by deliberately not building social housing, sold off our gold when it was at rock bottom, privatised the bank of england then bailed out the banks with taxpayers money on the shoulders of our kids at the cost of their health services, schools, police all the stuff getting cut now, that labour?

The one that spent 3 billion or so in Iraq wars with GWB? ID cards failed like the poll tax did.

That labour? The one that sends its leaders to hold the sun placards in an effort to win their backing? The one packed with 'leaders' who cant wait to go round to murdochs and win his blessing?

This labour party is the answer is it? And all yhem wot neva voted for them are silly for educating themselves?

Id say the introduction of the min wage was comparable to the coalition no tax for first ten grand and thats about all the crumbs either have given back in either labour or tory terms going back to me being a kid, other than that the good cop bad cop routine might have fooled you but all the tories have been doing is taking the next logical step after labour had teed it up for them. You want to go back and do it all again was it not enough for you to punch your own face once? Dont punish yourself for doing so by doing it again or it could end in disaster.

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As I said in my original post, the UKIP and Green votes were up massively. As was, obviously, SNP - where previously Labour held seats. It didn't take many seats to weaken the Tory majority and they would've struggled to create a coalition. Which is what the polls were predicting, no?

 

Okay so now we are getting to the crux of it.  I think I've answered the SNP point but I will just do it again anyway.  The SNP vote is irrelevant.  They are a party left of labour.  If labour had won all the seats in Scotland that the SNP won the tory majority would still be the same because the SNP are more against the tories than Labour are.  The tories would still have the same number of seats

 

You are also suggesting there are some potential labour voters who voted UKIP, a party to the right of the tories who have solely been created and based their campaign on one issue which is to take the UK out of the EU, because Labour ruled out a coalition with the SNP to get the tories out.  Do you not realise how ridiculous this is?  There are plenty of people who voted UKIP who would have voted labour, conservative etc but if you think they chose to vote for UKIP because Labour ruled out a coalition with the SNP you are more stupid than I thought  They did so because they hate immigrants, are racist or are thick as fuck.  They aren't voting UKIP because Labour refused to go into coalition with the SNP.  Anyone clever enough to worry about something like that south of the border wouldn't be stupid enough to then vote for a party more right of the tories.

 

This is all ignoring the fact UKIP and the greens only got 2 seats and their votes weren't enough to have significantly lowered votes on labours or the conservatives side to lose the marginals.  Labour lost the marginals because more people voted tory in them.  It's a simple as that.

 

It's a laughably stupid point to make.

 

This is the exact quote

 

"I strongly feel that if Ed Miliband hadn't completely dismissed the idea of coalition with the SNP then they'd be in power right now."

 

And it's fucking thick as pigshit.

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To echo the point of the thread, I think the Tories won because most people are Tories. We've only ever shifted to the left in extreme circumstances, following a World War or following 18 years of tired Tory rule led by John Major and where half the cabinet were in and out of Edwina Curry's hoop, and only then were they ousted by a Tory light party that promised to adhere to Tory spending plans. 

 

The favourite for the Labour leadership wears Saville Row suits and described undesirables in London night clubs as 'trash'. That's the sad truth of the matter. 

 

If there was an SNP like movement in the North of England I'd vote for them in a shot. 

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To echo the point of the thread, I think the Tories won because most people are Tories. We've only ever shifted to the left in extreme circumstances, following a World War or following 18 years of tired Tory rule led by John Major and where half the cabinet were in and out of Edwina Curry's hoop, and only then were they ousted by a Tory light party that promised to adhere to Tory spending plans. 

 

The favourite for the Labour leadership wears Saville Row suits and described undesirables in London night clubs as 'trash'. That's the sad truth of the matter. 

 

If there was an SNP like movement in the North of England I'd vote for them in a shot. 

 

That's easy. Call it the Stark Party, have a wolf as it's symbol and a slogan of "The North Remembers" Wallop!

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That's easy. Call it the Stark Party, have a wolf as it's symbol and a slogan of "The North Remembers" Wallop!

 

The king in the North would have my vote, who would it be though? Sean Bean?

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The king in the North would have my vote, who would it be though? Sean Bean?

 

Sean Bean would get nominated but probably croak it halfway through his opposition stint. Patrick Stewart was born in Yorkshire, isn't a Tory and has the voice that could win wars.

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Amen to that shout. 

 

 

 

 

How does he feel, given there's a strong chance the Conservative Party could win the next election? "I'm horrified. For one thing, I know the country will regret it, very, very quickly." What does he think of Tory leader David Cameron? "I wish I knew more about David," he sighs. "Maybe we will learn more about their policies in time to come. But I see a lack of substance and a kind of fence-sitting about issues that makes me very nervous. And I can't help feeling that good, old Conservative values will come to be paramount ... We will return to some of the worst of the Thatcher years. I just don't trust what I see or hear."

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Sean Bean would get nominated but probably croak it halfway through his opposition stint. Patrick Stewart was born in Yorkshire, isn't a Tory and has the voice that could win wars.

 

Excellent call.  We could revitalise the clothing industry - make it sew!

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Labour abandoned the point of themselfs they did it to get into power, its not that most people are tory, its that this system demands a tory in charge, its designed to give an outcome that the queen allows to give favour.

The romans used to appoint a local tax man in antiquity in other countries they ran to collect taxes had to be a local, figure of hate who lived behind high walls and lived a life of fear in luxury, this way they kept power, the locals were divided by this as some could be paid off by the taxman enough to keep the torches from his door perhaps. It was how they took over the world from rome, divide and conquer. Labour, tory or any other political party are the queens taxmen.

Its her in charge of the system and she is ready to receive us now. Kneel before zod, zod likes tory type men who can oppress the working classes.

Labour have been authors of their own downfall, privatising the industry that brought their union based power, the goose was good for the gander and these farmers have found no golden eggs now they slit its stomach open, those unions being an easy target for the elites to subvert and gain control of, three steps ahead now, the last drips of that old betrayed communities faith were rung out by browns bigoted old woman moment, they went to ukip they arent racist but it was that or tory the greens being middle class and divided by industry vrs nature.

 

Anyway those old communities are gone, broken up by labour themselves, those people arent coming back to labour again anymore than kids are filling churches and getting apprenticeships.

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Labour abandoned the point of themselfs they did it to get into power, its not that most people are tory, its that this system demands a tory in charge, its designed to give an outcome that the queen allows to give favour.

The romans used to appoint a local tax man in antiquity in other countries they ran to collect taxes had to be a local, figure of hate who lived behind high walls and lived a life of fear in luxury, this way they kept power, the locals were divided by this as some could be paid off by the taxman enough to keep the torches from his door perhaps. It was how they took over the world from rome, divide and conquer. Labour, tory or any other political party are the queens taxmen.

Its her in charge of the system and she is ready to receive us now. Kneel before zod, zod likes tory type men who can oppress the working classes.

Labour have been authors of their own downfall, privatising the industry that brought their union based power, the goose was good for the gander and these farmers have found no golden eggs now they slit its stomach open, those unions being an easy target for the elites to subvert and gain control of, three steps ahead now, the last drips of that old betrayed communities faith were rung out by browns bigoted old woman moment, they went to ukip they arent racist but it was that or tory the greens being middle class and divided by industry vrs nature.

 

Anyway those old communities are gone, broken up by labour themselves, those people arent coming back to labour again anymore than kids are filling churches and getting apprenticeships.

 

It's hard to actually tell what point your trying to make among the blithering nonsense.

 

You do realise the places all those old labour communities that aren't coming back still voted labour in their droves.  There were 28000 in Wavertree.  Labour shifted to the right because the majority of the country is on the right and they lost election after election to the tories despite the country being in tatters.  The Tories won the election because labour lurched back slightly left and the press didn't like it.  Labour still won all their bankers other than the Scots which made no difference anyway.  They lost the marginal seats because swing voters voted Tory not because traditional Labour voters went elsewhere.

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It's hard to actually tell what point your trying to make among the blithering nonsense.

 

You do realise the places all those old labour communities that aren't coming back still voted labour in their droves. There were 28000 in Wavertree. Labour shifted to the right because the majority of the country is on the right and they lost election after election to the tories despite the country being in tatters. The Tories won the election because labour lurched back slightly left and the press didn't like it. Labour still won all their bankers other than the Scots which made no difference anyway. They lost the marginal seats because swing voters voted Tory not because traditional Labour voters went elsewhere.

Droves that didnt return a majority even if we take snp out.

The country isnt on the right the media are, look at the yougov polls to see what policies the public want, the media barely touch the yougov polls because they dont decide anything and make uncomfortable reading. The media also do a good job of making us think we want what they tell us, otherwise they wouldnt make so much from advertising.

Sadly the power of the rupert murdoch media is of labours making as much as anyone and they were more than happy to sell themself to use it, so it became more acceptable media to labour supporters when it supported labour and those people stayed loyal to that media when that media turned on labour.

I dont care much though for these arguments as long as we have representative democracy instead of an actual direct democracy, nepotism and corruption are painting the numbers on the dice labour had an unprecedented three terms and its led us here.

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