Tory Country

[Jairzinho]

I think the Labour party did offer an alternative.

 

No zero hours contracts as opposed to zero hours contracts, no bedroom tax as opposed to bedroom tax for example, as well as less drastic and front loaded cuts.

 

The problem was these things didn't resonate because they weren't given publicity by the media, and if they were, we've been manipulated and engineered into a culture that begrudges each other absolutely everything so nobody would have given a fuck.

 

Only scare tactics resonated in the end, the lies - blatant lies- that Labour had ruined and would ruin the economy, that the Tories are a steady hand, and that the SNP were going to sack York.

 

We're a nation of slaves and mongs. Every time you go out the house you see joggers dressed like fucking Dynamo from the Running Man and fat middle aged cyclists dressed in 'Team Sky' gear, that's how easy it is to make people conform now, we're an identikit nation. 

 

Do you think Murdoch is going to swap teams?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Do you think Murdoch is going to swap teams?

I don't think he sees it as teams. I think he wants people to kiss the ring.

[RoboRiise]

I do often wonder if, because of the time I spend on here(a forum that was described by one senior state-department official as "a hotbed of extremism"), I've got a false impression of the country's political stance.

 

This site is like Citizen Smith's fanclub compared to most of the country. I'm in Greater Manchester; move about 30 miles south of me and it's blue all the way to inner city London.

 

That's exactly why I think so much of the discussion on here about what Labour need to focus on to have a prayer of winning an election misses the point.  I hate to admit this but they won't win with a set of policies that would appeal to many on here simply because we're in no way representative of the country as a whole.

[Section_31]

Not a good enough alternative though, that's my point. A few policies here and there, but actually it's status quo. 

 

The problem is that no counter arguments are tolerated anyway. 

 

If you talk about anti-austerity you're derided as naive. We see it in the way the arguments in Greece and Spain are framed, there's a powerful will out there to put the public purse under pressure and have everyone running scared. 

 

How do you propose alternatives when they're instantly shot down? 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/07/david-axelrod-uk-media-most-partisan-fox-news

 

 

 

David Axelrod, the top aide to Barack Obama who travelled across the pond to advise Ed Miliband in the British election, has said he has never seen a media environment as partisan as the one in the UK.

[The Guest]

Sorry mate, didn't realise we had someone on the forum that knows absolutely everything about politics, and not only that, knows how people would vote in hypothetical situations. Quite a talent.

 

Anyway, I didn't suggest he go into coalition but that he didn't dismiss it out of hand. Much like the Tories who didn't dismiss ANY type of coalition but simply stuck to the mantra of 'we're not getting into hypotheticals'. Non-committal, doesn't alienate any voters (in fact does the opposite) and also doesn't even give an answer... which is what politicians love. The very simple reason that they never give straight answers to questions is because it comes back to bite them in the arse. Miliband did it, and in MY opinion, it cost Labour votes. maybe not enough to win... but the seats go somewhere.

 

I didn't say that you said rule out a coalition.  I'm specifically saying that if you can't see the major pitfall of him not saying a categorical no to it you haven't got a clue.  He did say a caterorical no and that still scared off the majority of the south because the Tories and the tabloids pushed that angle.  God knows the shitstorm that would have been created had he not said no every single time he was asked.

 

You are now talking even more absolute nonsense.  People fucking hate politicians and generally hate the way they don't answer yes or no to questions.  Let me get this right though you are actually saying people prefer it when they dodge questions because then they don't have to hold them to account for it afterwards?  You are a fucking fruitcake.  You are now saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes and because Labour actually said no about a coalition with the SNP they lost votes because it potentially would have come back to bite Miliband on the arse?  I can't actually put into words how fucking ridiculous this post is.

[Jairzinho]

This site is like Citizen Smith's fanclub compared to most of the country. I'm in Greater Manchester; move about 30 miles south of me and it's blue all the way to inner city London.

 

That's exactly why I think so much of the discussion on here about what Labour need to focus on to have a prayer of winning an election misses the point.  I hate to admit this but they won't win with a set of policies that would appeal to many on here simply because we're in no way representative of the country as a whole.

 

To be fair, I want a government to the left of the Green Party, but I'm not expecting one. 

 

However, I refuse to believe that the population of England (and it is just England) are so utterly hateful and retarded that a well campaigned anti-austerity Labour Party that also offers something to the middle class couldn't gain power. I'm well aware that Murdoch and his ilk would make it difficult, so embrace alternative media. Go door to door. Explain to people who run small businesses that the enemy isn't someone on £70 a week on JSA, but Tesco and Starbucks. 

[Section_31]

What are most people's views 'out there' when it comes to politics? I haven't heard many traditional Tory views, genuinely, I doubt most people out there talk about - or understand - the concepts of 'small state' or the differences between private and public ownership, I don't fully myself and I'm interested in it.

 

Most of the political 'talk' out there has been about Labour leaving the country in a mess, immigration, benefits and and Ed Miliband being 'a bit weird'.

 

Did people spontaneously all develop these views? Or have they been fed them by the repeated showing of the same nuggets? (how often, for instance, is Nigel Farage on Questiontime? About twice a week?) How often are benefits programmes on the telly? How much politics is taught in school? 

[RoboRiise]

I think the Labour party did offer an alternative.

 

No zero hours contracts as opposed to zero hours contracts, no bedroom tax as opposed to bedroom tax for example, as well as less drastic and front loaded cuts.

 

The problem was these things didn't resonate because they weren't given publicity by the media, and if they were, we've been manipulated and engineered into a culture that begrudges each other absolutely everything so nobody would have given a fuck.

 

Only scare tactics resonated in the end, the lies - blatant lies- that Labour had ruined and would ruin the economy, that the Tories are a steady hand, and that the SNP were going to sack York.

 

We're a nation of slaves and mongs. Every time you go out the house you see joggers dressed like fucking Dynamo from the Running Man and fat middle aged cyclists dressed in 'Team Sky' gear, that's how easy it is to make people conform now, we're an identikit nation. 

 

I agree with you about the state of the country.  Trouble is, you're not just going to say to all those people 'wake the fuck up, you all look and act like selfish mongs' and they go 'wow yeah Section is right.  What have I been doing with my life' and trot out to vote Labour.

 

As you said, the bedroom tax.  People tut about it, say oh it's so terrible when they read about some widowed mother losing her home.  Come election time, they realise that they don't actually pay it at which point it becomes a non-issue.  People are selfish, or rather enough of them are selfish to win an election.

 

Zero hours contracts.  People say yes it's terrible, how can anybody live their life like that, no certainty, blah blah.  Come election time, they realise they aren't on a zero hours contract so they don't give a fuck.

 

The most recent stats show that only about 2.5% of workers are and of those, over half are happy with the situation.  I deal with people employed on such contracts every day and for every exploited worker, there is someone who is their family's second earner and perfectly happy to not have any guaranteed hours because their income is basically the holiday fund.  Don't kid yourselves that everybody on a zero hours contract is working on a production line in a factory; there's a huge amount of spin from both sides of the divide about that issue.

 

Any party wanting to get elected shouldn't be wasting its time talking to people about issues which they ultimately don't give a fuck about, or which are too nuanced for them to fully grasp the implications of.

[Anny Road]

What are most people's views 'out there' when it comes to politics? I haven't heard many traditional Tory views, genuinely, I doubt most people out there talk about - or understand - the concepts of 'small state' or the differences between private and public ownership, I don't fully myself and I'm interested in it.

 

Most of the political 'talk' out there has been about Labour leaving the country in a mess, immigration, benefits and and Ed Miliband being 'a bit weird'.

 

Did people spontaneously all develop these views? Or have they been fed them by the repeated showing of the same nuggets? (how often, for instance, is Nigel Farage on Questiontime? About twice a week?) How often are benefits programmes on the telly? How much politics is taught in school? 

What amazes me is that people can have the view, as you say, that Milliband is a bit weird. Yet Farage is a fine chap.

I know who I would rather have round my house.

Maybe I am just a poor judge of character but I see Farage a s a fucking loon. Milliband is a bit of a geek but do you know I would rather a geek run the country than someone thinking they are a super hero.

[dennis tooth]

I didn't say that you said rule out a coalition. I'm specifically saying that if you can't see the major pitfall of him not saying a categorical no to it you haven't got a clue. He did say a caterorical no and that still scared off the majority of the south because the Tories and the tabloids pushed that angle. God knows the shitstorm that would have been created had he not said no every single time he was asked.

 

You are now talking even more absolute nonsense. People fucking hate politicians and generally hate the way they don't answer yes or no to questions. Let me get this right though you are actually saying people prefer it when they dodge questions because then they don't have to hold them to account for it afterwards? You are a fucking fruitcake. You are now saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes and because Labour actually said no about a coalition with the SNP they lost votes because it potentially would have come back to bite Miliband on the arse? I can't actually put into words how fucking ridiculous this post is.

So if he would have answered correct you are saying he would have won?

An ace argument if you forget Ed Milliband wouldnt win an election if he was last man on earth.

[Duncan Clench]

I didn't say that you said rule out a coalition.  I'm specifically saying that if you can't see the major pitfall of him not saying a categorical no to it you haven't got a clue.  He did say a caterorical no and that still scared off the majority of the south because the Tories and the tabloids pushed that angle.  God knows the shitstorm that would have been created had he not said no every single time he was asked.

 

You are now talking even more absolute nonsense.  People fucking hate politicians and generally hate the way they don't answer yes or no to questions.  Let me get this right though you are actually saying people prefer it when they dodge questions because then they don't have to hold them to account for it afterwards?  You are a fucking fruitcake.  You are now saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes and because Labour actually said no about a coalition with the SNP they lost votes because it potentially would have come back to bite Miliband on the arse?  I can't actually put into words how fucking ridiculous this post is.

 

Yes, I haven't got a clue. I'm so sorry. Either that or you aren't actually thinking things through, or indeed reading what I post. Let's be clear on one thing though; I am allowed to have an opinion without being called a fucking fruitcake, so do try to keep the name calling down. It doesn't offend me in any way, but it's not a good way to debate, is it? You're obviously very emotional about it, but it wasn't my fault that the Tories got elected.

 

From the top then...

 

Re the SNP. He should have said 'I'm fighting to win and I won't talk about hypotheticals'. Repeat, ad nauseum.

 

Yes, people hate politicians because they don't answer questions directly, among the other things like lying, stealing and generally being odious. But that's a fact. They don't answer questions directly. Why? Because they can be held accountable. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact. I don't like it, nobody does, but it ain't about to change.

 

I'm not saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes, obviously. I'm saying that because Miliband answered a direct question, nay PLEA, from Nicola Sturgeon saying (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote) 'don't dismiss this and let the Tories in' - with a resounding NO - that people might well have been turned away from the party.

[RoboRiise]

To be fair, I want a government to the left of the Green Party, but I'm not expecting one. 

 

However, I refuse to believe that the population of England (and it is just England) are so utterly hateful and retarded that a well campaigned anti-austerity Labour Party that also offers something to the middle class couldn't gain power. I'm well aware that Murdoch and his ilk would make it difficult, so embrace alternative media. Go door to door. Explain to people who run small businesses that the enemy isn't someone on £70 a week on JSA, but Tesco and Starbucks. 

 

People who run small businesses just think that both of those are the enemy.  They don't think anyting can be done about Tesco, so they go with the party who will clobber the other one.

 

The part of your post I highlighted I agree with completely; that's exactly what I was meaning about what Labour need to do.  This time round either they didn't, or they did but completely failed to communicate it to them.

[Jairzinho]

People who run small businesses just think that both of those are the enemy.  They don't think anyting can be done about Tesco, so they go with the party who will clobber the other one.

 

The part of your post I highlighted I agree with completely; that's exactly what I was meaning about what Labour need to do.  This time round either they didn't, or they did but completely failed to communicate it to them.

 

People who run small businesses are voting for a party that only sees one of them as the enemy though. This, in part, is the fault of the Labour Party.

[dennis tooth]

What are most people's views 'out there' when it comes to politics? I haven't heard many traditional Tory views, genuinely, I doubt most people out there talk about - or understand - the concepts of 'small state' or the differences between private and public ownership, I don't fully myself and I'm interested in it.

 

Most of the political 'talk' out there has been about Labour leaving the country in a mess, immigration, benefits and and Ed Miliband being 'a bit weird'.

 

Did people spontaneously all develop these views? Or have they been fed them by the repeated showing of the same nuggets? (how often, for instance, is Nigel Farage on Questiontime? About twice a week?) How often are benefits programmes on the telly? How much politics is taught in school?

 

Indoctrination, diversion and propaganda do a good job to confuse everyone, we all want the same things yet this system will always divide like a schizofrenic maths professor.

 

With this system and people seem to be still looking within it, its like listening to indebted gamblers justifying their next throw of the dice, forgetting they are in a casino where the house always win, they keep trying, with plenty of encouragement and solidarity with the other gamblers to fill their liccle hearts with hope.

They have designed increasingly elaborate justifications and convince themselves they have this ace way of winning.

 

One more punt on labour, just one more fuckin hit man.

[dennis tooth]

Yes, I haven't got a clue. I'm so sorry. Either that or you aren't actually thinking things through, or indeed reading what I post. Let's be clear on one thing though; I am allowed to have an opinion without being called a fucking fruitcake, so do try to keep the name calling down. It doesn't offend me in any way, but it's not a good way to debate, is it? You're obviously very emotional about it, but it wasn't my fault that the Tories got elected.

 

From the top then...

 

Re the SNP. He should have said 'I'm fighting to win and I won't talk about hypotheticals'. Repeat, ad nauseum.

 

Yes, people hate politicians because they don't answer questions directly, among the other things like lying, stealing and generally being odious. But that's a fact. They don't answer questions directly. Why? Because they can be held accountable. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact. I don't like it, nobody does, but it ain't about to change.

 

I'm not saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes, obviously. I'm saying that because Miliband answered a direct question, nay PLEA, from Nicola Sturgeon saying (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote) 'don't dismiss this and let the Tories in' - with a resounding NO - that people might well have been turned away from the party.

Whatever mate his answer may as well have been 'carrotcake' he was never gonna win.

[The Guest]

Yes, I haven't got a clue. I'm so sorry. Either that or you aren't actually thinking things through, or indeed reading what I post. Let's be clear on one thing though; I am allowed to have an opinion without being called a fucking fruitcake, so do try to keep the name calling down. It doesn't offend me in any way, but it's not a good way to debate, is it? You're obviously very emotional about it, but it wasn't my fault that the Tories got elected.

 

From the top then...

 

Re the SNP. He should have said 'I'm fighting to win and I won't talk about hypotheticals'. Repeat, ad nauseum.

 

Yes, people hate politicians because they don't answer questions directly, among the other things like lying, stealing and generally being odious. But that's a fact. They don't answer questions directly. Why? Because they can be held accountable. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact. I don't like it, nobody does, but it ain't about to change.

 

I'm not saying that because the Tories dodged questions they got more votes, obviously. I'm saying that because Miliband answered a direct question, nay PLEA, from Nicola Sturgeon saying (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote) 'don't dismiss this and let the Tories in' - with a resounding NO - that people might well have been turned away from the party.

 

I'm honestly struggling to put into words how fucking stupid this is.

 

Politicians don't answer questions directly because they are scared they will look stupid because they may have to go back on it later and therefore lose credibility and votes.  In your head you seem to have twisted this into the public preferring politicians that don't answer questions directly because that means they don't have to hold them to account when it turns out it's a lie which they don't know if it is yet because what's been proposed hasn't actually even happened.  Absolutely bizarre.

 

Specifically you are saying Labour lost votes because they said no to a coalition with the SNP.  The only votes they would potentially lose for this would be in Scotland which wouldn't have made any difference anyway because the SNP (a party on the left would vote against anything tory anyway) total number of seats still doesn't get near the majority of the tories if they had been won by labour.  Unless you are suggesting there are English voters who would be turned away from Labour because they ruled out a coalition with SNP and just decided to either turn Tory or not vote at all?

 

The point which you have spectacularly missed is that if Labour hadn't have categorically said no the right wing tabloids would have absolutely slaughtered Labour for not ruling it out and told general public that they were going to be run by the SNP.  The tories would have won by a landslide.  They won by a landslide anyway and if you think that's because they ruled out a coalition with the SNP you are a fruitcake.

[Bobby Hundreds]

I think labour didn't appeal to the working class enough. They lost a lot of voters to ukip because thick fucks fell for the bullshit. Mostly though the media set the narrative, it was non stop. There will never be a truly left wing governmnet in this country because the media shapes people's views. Channels like the BBC who are supposed to dig deeper, never did, they almost got their own narrative and questions from headlines in the papers. The BBC never really questioned the recession being global, the fall of the lehmannn brothers or subprime mortgages in america. I'd watch people like andrew Neil smirk as the torys made those statements and offer no rebuke.

 

Labour chased the same ground as the torys for nearly 5 years and only towards the end started making "brave policies" (ahem) which the right wing media painted as doomsday scenarios. Then the whole SNP narrative the tail wagging the dog, big billboards of alex salmond pick pocketing, channel 4 making endless shows about how we have to pay for scum bags who don't want to work.

 

A lot of people who voted Tory this time round haven't actually got a fucking clue what the tories are or what they stand for, they don't bother with politics they heard the tories have done good with the economy, the lib dems are liars, labour want scotland to rule us and are dreadful with the economy , ukip are for the English working man but maybe they are racist. I think labour weren't left enough and by that I mean real practical policies none of this gimmicky mansion tax bollocks, they said fuck all for 4 years, then made gimmick policies and that moses tablet could only of been the Americans idea, what a load of shite. As for the non Dom stuff learn your lessons next time get in first and then get the fuckers, the poeple who own the papers are all bloody non doms.

 

Now with only 66 percent of the electorate voting and only 37 percent of them voting tory we have a tory governmnet that can do what the fuck it likes and with sick fucks like gove, IDS, and hunt, God knows what these next 5 years have in store. Labour should be a party with some kind of values instead of trying to mould itself into a million different shapes to get a sniff of power. Be a voice and have conviction this isn't a game. Your party either represents a certain set of values or your not a party at all just a collection of fuckers whose spoon wasn't quite silver enough or heart that little bit too warm to make it into the conservative circle.

[Ginny]

To be fair, I want a government to the left of the Green Party, but I'm not expecting one. 

 

However, I refuse to believe that the population of England (and it is just England) are so utterly hateful and retarded that a well campaigned anti-austerity Labour Party that also offers something to the middle class couldn't gain power. I'm well aware that Murdoch and his ilk would make it difficult, so embrace alternative media. Go door to door. Explain to people who run small businesses that the enemy isn't someone on £70 a week on JSA, but Tesco and Starbucks.

 

The thing is tesco and Starbucks etc... Are people's dreams. Someone has started those businesses. They represent what can be achieved with a Vision and hard work. Whether you think they are the enemy or not, ideas are free and hard work can be applied to any field to create what you want. We live the most advanced time in the history of our species and you have abled bodied lads my age who have been on benefits for fuckin years. Businesses represent progression, people on JSA who are able bodied represent stagnation.

[Jairzinho]

They represent what can be achieved by paying poverty wages and not paying any fucking tax. If you think Tesco and Starbucks represent progression I would have to conclude that you are indeed firing Domestos directly into your eyes.

 

They're doing the complete opposite to what you're suggesting. They're preventing hundreds of thousands of people from running businesses. Local butchers, bakers, cafe, florists, you can all fuck off out of town as we subsidise Tesco.

[stringvest]

This election has highlighted to me how utterly stupid and uninformed a lot of people are.  By that I mean people I have known for years that I wouldn't have expected it from and not the general idiotic public you would expect it from.  The main whinges usually found on facebook but sometimes in person and on my whatsapp mates groups:

 

 

You hang around with some right dickheads TG

[JagSquared]

Bit late but I Was talking to friends who voted Tory last weekend, most of them management types or with professions, and the overarching reason was they couldn't see any of the others as leaders and Cameron was the only one they felt had proved he had leadership material.

 

When I challenged them about policies they had little clue other than what was in the media and I was frankly astounded that they hadn't taken the care to understand what the main parties stood for. When they asked me how I could vote for milliband my reply that I was voting for policies not people, and even then voting for the party that had the best chance of ensuring the party I most didn't want to win, won was met with nothing more than "but milliband? Seriously?"

 

Why the fuck is politics a popularity show? I had more than one person on Facebook saying they were voting based on looks! Jesus wept we need to educate people better.

[Anubis]

The reality tv generation.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

The reality tv generation.

Perfectly summed up. Most people made more posts about that cunt Jeremy Clarkson than the GE, about how upset they were because he'd been sacked, fuck all to do with what he had done but because it meant they would miss a fucking show which had been dumped!! 

[dennis tooth]

Bit late but I Was talking to friends who voted Tory last weekend, most of them management types or with professions, and the overarching reason was they couldn't see any of the others as leaders and Cameron was the only one they felt had proved he had leadership material. When I challenged them about policies they had little clue other than what was in the media and I was frankly astounded that they hadn't taken the care to understand what the main parties stood for. When they asked me how I could vote for milliband my reply that I was voting for policies not people, and even then voting for the party that had the best chance of ensuring the party I most didn't want to win, won was met with nothing more than "but milliband? Seriously?"Why the fuck is politics a popularity show? I had more than one person on Facebook saying they were voting based on looks! Jesus wept we need to educate people better.

Hold on, they won, they cant be that stupid, maybe representative democracy has a direct outcome of personality, not policy, politics.

 

Educate people to vote better? Yeah give them the vote then, the real vote not the appoint a representative five year thing so much?

[dennis tooth]

Perfectly summed up. Most people made more posts about that cunt Jeremy Clarkson than the GE, about how upset they were because he'd been sacked, fuck all to do with what he had done but because it meant they would miss a fucking show which had been dumped!!

 

Blaming the people will only fall into the trap of repeating past mistakes