Donald Trump

[TheHowieLama]

14 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

I don't reckon he planned anything.  

He just did it, crookedly, randomly and with bluster.

The story of his career.

And he ain't Every Man.  Nor were those oddities that stormed the Capitol, for that matter.

 

 

Yeah, should say - not the way "they" planned.

 

He was elected by folks who wanted a re-set at Federal level - portrayed quite effectively as "Every Man", empowered by the same tactic (Barr DoJ) and tolerated by the big boys (Senate). 

 

[s(k)aturation]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Yeah, should say - not the way "they" planned.

 

He was elected by folks who wanted a re-set at Federal level - portrayed quite effectively as "Every Man", empowered by the same tactic (Barr DoJ) and tolerated by the big boys (Senate). 

 

Quite a miracle, when you think about it.

 

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, skaro said:

Quite a miracle, when you think about it.

 

Ask him about it - he will tell you how great it was.

[s(k)aturation]

14 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Ask him about it - he will tell you how great it was.

 

Do they have visiting hours at Guantanamo?

 

 

[Section_31]

6 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

No, the advisors, tech people, briefers, sponsors, legitimisers, co-conspirators, vested interests, media’s alignments, nudge department’s and any other cunt under the sun who allowed this joke to run roughshod over democratic process for the last four years.

 

Everybody, including the people who have been mind raped to accept this fucking nonsense, are culpable to a greater or lesser degree.
 

No excuses.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Nobody worked for Trump because they had to, they were never going go be on the dole, there were no difficult choices to be made the same was as someone might, say, work for Amazon despite have concerns over a lot of those practices.

 

They all hoped to gain something, either by being on a winning side, where the enemy was essentially the US's norms, or they wanted prestige that would serve them and gain rewards after they'd worked for him, TV gigs, University jobs etc - if this is what they hoped for, then it's exactly what they should be deprived of at all costs.

 

If you're working in that world, you're either a supporter of Trump or a supporter of the United States, you can't be both, not when he'd been classed as an actual fucking intelligence risk by their own intelligence community, or when he's shown disdain for their laws and their constitution, or when he's sown discord for his own gain which has resulted in the death of citizens and police, or when he's turned a blind eye to Russia putting bounties on the heads of American troops. 

 

Trump isn't American except in luck of birth, he's avoided military service and dodged taxes all his life, he's the antithesis of what most people would consider a good and loyal citizen, so are anyone who knowingly followed him.

[sir roger]

He will leave behind a massive amount of discord and questions that will haunt the USA for many years , but mainly , did he really get pissed on by Russian brasses ?

[Bruce Spanner]

1 minute ago, sir roger said:

He will leave behind a massive amount of discord and questions that will haunt the USA for many years , but mainly , did he really get pissed on by Russian brasses ?

 

He'll leave behind as little evidence as possible...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/17/historians-having-to-tape-together-records-that-trump-tore-up

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

13 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/16/if-trump-looks-like-a-fascist-and-acts-like-a-fascist-then-maybe-he-is-one

 

’Assurances that “fascism couldn’t happen here” are always appealing in Anglo-Saxon countries that think themselves immune because “it” never did. The US and UK did not experience rule by Nazism or communism in the 20th century and the ignorance our lucky histories fostered has weakened our defences in the 21st.

 

Even after all that has happened in Washington, apparently serious voices insist we cannot compare Donald Trump to any variety of fascist. Conservatives habitually say that liberals call everything they don’t like fascist, forgetting that the moral of Aesop’s fable was that the boy who cried wolf was right in the end. They used to chortle about “Trump derangement syndrome” that spreads in stages like cancer until sufferers “cannot distinguish fantasy from reality”. They have bitten their tongues now that the reality of Trumpism is deranged mobs trying to overthrow democracy.

 

Their silence was broken last week by the historian of Nazism, Richard Evans, who with the effortless ability to miss every point a professorship at Cambridge bestows, decided now was the moment to denounce his colleagues, Timothy Snyder and Sarah Churchwell. They might compare the Trump and fascist movements but “few who have described Trump as a fascist can be called real experts in the field”, he wrote in the New Statesman with an audible sniff. “Genuine specialists”, such as, and since you asked, himself, “agree that whatever else he is, Trump is not a fascist”.

Before we get to why the argument matters, I should say the New Statesman needs to expand its fact-checking department. Snyder, whose work on how democracies turn into dictatorships is essential reading, does not say that the Trump movement is “fascist”. He writes that “post-truth is pre-fascism and Trump has been our post-truth president”. Churchwell’s astonishing studies of how German Nazis and American white supremacists fed off each other are a revelation. (And I come from the old left and thought I had learned about everything that was rotten with America at my mother’s knee.) When asked, she says she too is careful and characterises the Trump movement as “neo-fascist”.

 

The use of “fascism” in political debate is both a call to arms and a declaration of war. For once you say you are fighting fascism there can be no retreat. By talking of “pre-fascism” or “neo-fascism”, you acknowledge that the F-word is not a bomb you should detonate lightly; you also acknowledge the gravity of the times.

The alternatives look like the euphemisms of formerly safe societies that, like Caliban, cannot bear to see their face in the mirror. The Trump leadership cult, the attacks on any source of information the leader does not authorise, the racist conspiracy theories, the servile media that amplify the leader’s lies are not “conservative” in any understanding of the term. How about populist? If it means anything today, populism is supporting the people against the elite. But what could be more elitist than denying the result of the people’s vote with the big lie, the Joseph Goebbels lie, that Trump won the election he lost and then inciting brainwashed followers to storm democratic institutions? Followers, I should add, who included men dressed in “Camp Auschwitz” T-shirts and waving Confederate flags and wannabe stormtroopers crying “sieg heil!” and “total negro death”. “Far right” and “extreme right” are no help. They are just polite ways of saying neo-fascist.

In his The Anatomy of Fascism, Robert Paxton, the pre-eminent authority on its ideology, wrote that the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 rather than Mussolini’s squadristi in 1920 could be seen as the first fascist movement. As with the Nazi party, the embittered officers of a defeated army formed the Klan. They mourned the defeat of the Confederacy and did not accept the legitimacy of the US government. They had uniforms, white robes rather than leather jackets, the fantasies of racial supremacy and deployed terror to maintain the subjugation of African Americans. Last week, police sources told the Washington Post they were shocked to see “former law enforcement and military personnel as well as senior business executives” among the Washington mob. If they had known the history of military and bourgeois support for fascism, they would have been less surprised. It isn’t always powered by “the left behind”.

 

Paxton said last week that he had “resisted for a long time applying the fascist label to Donald J Trump”, but Trump’s incitement of the invasion of the Capitol “removes my objection to the fascist label”.

Republicans fear assassination if they vote to impeach Trump. Rupert Murdoch’s broadcasters are delivering barely veiled threats of violent insurrection if the Democrats pursue impeachment. “We see what’s happening around this country, how 50 state houses are being threatened on Inauguration Day,” warned one. “This is the last thing you want to do.” 

I can see three objections to calling a large section of the Republican party pre-fascist. The first can be dismissed with a flick of the fingers as it comes from a self-interested right that has to pretend it is not in the grip of a deep sickness – and not only in the United States. The second is the old soothing “it can’t happen here” exceptionalism of the Anglo-Saxon west, which has yet to learn that the US and UK are exceptional in the 21st century for all the wrong reasons. The third sounds intelligent but is the dumbest of all. You should not call Trump or any other leader a pre- or neo-fascist or any kind of fascist until he has gone the whole hog and transformed his society into a totalitarian war machine.

 

The example of the stages of cancer, so beloved by believers in Trump derangement syndrome, explains the stupidity. Imagine you are a doctor looking at pre-cancerous cells or an early-stage cancer that has not grown deeply into tissue. The door bursts open and a chorus of Fox Newspresenters and Cambridge dons cry that “real experts in the field” agree that on no account should you call it cancer until it has metastasised and spread through the whole body. A competent doctor would insist on calling a fatal disease by its real name and not leave treatment until it was too late to stop it. So should you.’

 

 

 

 

The biggest stumbling point comes early, “the Anglo-Saxon west”, obviously the saxons themselves were an early Germanic tribe, so doubtless still retain an hereditary influence in Germany should they do so in the UK.

also, how many Germanic immigrants to the US since settlers arrived from Europe? I mean Donny fucking Drumpf get fucks sake.

Sandcastle argument to start with.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

10 hours ago, skaro said:

 

I'm fine with centrism in theory.  As you say, it should work for all.

And yes, broad agreement, Bruce.

But I think "the political class" (centrists) - up until your Brexits and your Trumps - didn't actually give a shit about "everyman", but only the blancmange middle class, themselves and power.

It's taken a loon like Trump - hardly the political class - to identify and highlight the self-serving indifference of "centrism" and weaponise the "Everyman".

 

That's why what Biden does now is so important.

If he merely gets things "back to normal" - which I think is all he's capable of and all the standard two-party duopolist is interested in - that will just set it all up for the disaffected, disillusioned "Trump" cycle to repeat itself.

 

The outlook is not good, whichever way I look at it.

 

 

2 party systems will

never grant centrism, it just gives a see saw effect. If you want true centrism, you need multiple parties, to pull in competing directions making and breaking ties on policy. 
talks of centrism in the uk or us is bollocks. Even over here in Aus, the Labour Party is too big for the liberals or nationals to

 compete on their own, so they have a permanent coalition and we have a 2 party system with the odd few independents, shit balances a bit more than the UK, but it’s not centrism.

[s(k)aturation]

14 minutes ago, Audrey Witherspoon said:

2 party systems will

never grant centrism, it just gives a see saw effect. If you want true centrism, you need multiple parties, to pull in competing directions making and breaking ties on policy. 
talks of centrism in the uk or us is bollocks. Even over here in Aus, the Labour Party is too big for the liberals or nationals to

 compete on their own, so they have a permanent coalition and we have a 2 party system with the odd few independents, shit balances a bit more than the UK, but it’s not centrism.

 

I was talking more about two-party systems, where the two parties aren't essentially much different from one another, in effect, and just compete for the middle ground where the votes are.  

A see-saw that doesn't actually see-saw much... and hovers around 53-47 or closer much of the time.

UK maybe not so much right now... but the US pre-Trump for a good stretch was I reckon.

 

(Woolies and Coles type thing - with the Greens as Aldi maybe!)

 

 

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

12 hours ago, skaro said:

 

I was talking more about two-party systems, where the two parties aren't essentially much different from one another, in effect, and just compete for the middle ground where the votes are.  

A see-saw that doesn't actually see-saw much... and hovers around 53-47 or closer much of the time.

UK maybe not so much right now... but the US pre-Trump for a good stretch was I reckon.

 

(Woolies and Coles type thing - with the Greens as Aldi maybe!)

 

 

Aye fair point John.

As you state there is a problem with the see saw where there is such little activity one body can become quite bloated compared to the other - whether through just means, misinformation, media manipulation, boundary changes etc, and it's not a major problem until the fat bastard moves further from the centre and the see saw swings like a mother fucker.

So I think a see-saw is always gonna be a bad way to maintain a political centrism approach.

Even if you look back at the UK 2010 election, the Liberal's most natural bedfellows would always have been new labour with their fiscal policies more closely aligned than under say a Corbyn / McDonnell govt, along with more shared  values on liberal lifestyle, but they jumped onto the other end of the see saw thinking they would gain more leverage from tories who had already Bega moving away from the centre ground, this led to the Liberals then going that swing away from centre Clegg and Swinson could quite easily have been moderate tory cabinet members.

[Bjornebye]

20 hours ago, sir roger said:

He will leave behind a massive amount of discord and questions that will haunt the USA for many years , but mainly , did he really get pissed on by Russian brasses ?

I’d have a lot more respect for him if he did to be fair 

[Section_31]

21 hours ago, sir roger said:

He will leave behind a massive amount of discord and questions that will haunt the USA for many years , but mainly , did he really get pissed on by Russian brasses ?

The Comey Rule on sky (really worth a watch) makes out that he got them to piss on a bed that the Obamas slept in.

 

I actually think Obama inadvertently created Trump. Trump clearly doesn't like him anyway because he's black and he's got some kind of inbuilt sense of white superiority, which is hilarious when you place both men side by side in literally any context.

 

But when he was spewing all that birther shite Obama quite rightly humiliated him at that official dinner, but you could see Trump stewing in the insults.

I think that was the point he decided not only to whatever he could to attack Obama's legacy, but also destroy the machinery that gave Obama his power and influence, the people all around him that night who were laughing.

[No2]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

The Comey Rule on sky (really worth a watch) makes out that he got them to piss on a bed that the Obamas slept in.

 

I actually think Obama inadvertently created Trump. Trump clearly doesn't like him anyway because he's black and he's got some kind of inbuilt sense of white superiority, which is hilarious when you place both men side by side in literally any context.

 

But when he was spewing all that birther shite Obama quite rightly humiliated him at that official dinner, but you could see Trump stewing in the insults.

I think that was the point he decided not only to whatever he could to attack Obama's legacy, but also destroy the machinery that gave Obama his power and influence, the people all around him that night who were laughing.

I don't think Trump is racist as such, he would hate Obama just as much if he were white. I don't even think he's right wing, that is just were the opportunity presented itself.  If he landes landed on the left somehow and ended up promoting Bernie Sanders type policies with baying crowds cheering his name it would work just as well for him. Once he's making money and people are fawning over him he's happy, if that means building a wall to keep Mexicans out or building the worlds biggest fastest train to bring them in a million at a time its all the same to him.

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, No2 said:

I don't think Trump is racist as such, he would hate Obama just as much if he were white. I don't even think he's right wing, that is just were the opportunity presented itself.  If he landes landed on the left somehow and ended up promoting Bernie Sanders type policies with baying crowds cheering his name it would work just as well for him. Once he's making money and people are fawning over him he's happy, if that means building a wall to keep Mexicans out or building the worlds biggest fastest train to bring them in a million at a time its all the same to him.

I see what you're saying mate but I guarantee his subconscious looks down on or dismisses non-white caucasians in the same way I bet it does women. He is a truly repulsive human being. 

[Section_31]

5 minutes ago, No2 said:

I don't think Trump is racist as such, he would hate Obama just as much if he were white. I don't even think he's right wing, that is just were the opportunity presented itself.  If he landes landed on the left somehow and ended up promoting Bernie Sanders type policies with baying crowds cheering his name it would work just as well for him. Once he's making money and people are fawning over him he's happy, if that means building a wall to keep Mexicans out or building the worlds biggest fastest train to bring them in a million at a time its all the same to him.

 

Nah he's deffo racist IMO. I agree he's not a fascist or political in that sense but just does whatever serves him (I doubt he understands the term) but he's got form for saying stuff like 'only black people could live like this', and he was also notorious for the way he behaved during that central park five incident, calling for a return of the death penalty. 

 

I don't know if he's racist like Steve Bannon racist, as in he wants a full blown race war, but I think he's swallowed a lot of the stuff that I think quite a few middle class white americans have swallowed, that white America is picket fences and lemonade and that they're surrounded by black and mexican areas which are dangerous because that's how they roll. 

 

[Barrington Womble]

So an interesting development today. I've had no emails from trump for ages, I think since 6th Jan. Today I've been clearly moved to the RNC emails, but everything looks and feels the same, the whole format of the emails is identical. It's just instead of them originating from someone in the trump camp, it now comes from either the RNC or GOP, which unless I'm stupid is the same thing? 

 

Has trump bought off the republican party? I'll pass my supporters right to you .... In return for ???? . One would assume support with regards impeachment. 

 

I followed the link through to see if it landed in trump land. But the 2nd image suggests it's genuine GOP. 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

On 18/01/2021 at 09:48, Section_31 said:

 

Nah he's deffo racist IMO. I agree he's not a fascist or political in that sense but just does whatever serves him (I doubt he understands the term) but he's got form for saying stuff like 'only black people could live like this', and he was also notorious for the way he behaved during that central park five incident, calling for a return of the death penalty. 

 

I don't know if he's racist like Steve Bannon racist, as in he wants a full blown race war, but I think he's swallowed a lot of the stuff that I think quite a few middle class white americans have swallowed, that white America is picket fences and lemonade and that they're surrounded by black and mexican areas which are dangerous because that's how they roll. 

 

He's a racist, a cunt and a sociopath and more importantly an ego driven simpleton, but he has been used and utilized to allow the worst of our species to allow their pathetic, ill throughout bullshit to become 'mainstream'

 

The fact he managed to build up support in areas of high 'diversity' says a lot about what we don't understand about how the world is currently.

 

This is, and has been, a huge story before he became P45 and still they voted for the cunt...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html

 

Now, there has to be blame apportioned and I believe it should be apportioned equally.

 

He is bad, 'they' are worse, but you can't not blame those that swallowed this fucking nonsense.

[TheHowieLama]

Gonna have to cough up the tax returns.

[Anubis]

Bad day at the Supreme Court for Donny. All of his remaining election bullshit lawsuits got kicked without certification for hearing (meaning the court won’t touch them), and then there was this...

 

 

 

[cloggypop]

Bad news for MyPillow blert as well. Dominion are sueing him for 1.3 billion dollars. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dominion-voting-systems-mypillow-mike-lindell-election-b1805607.html

[Anubis]

31 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Bad news for MyPillow blert as well. Dominion are sueing him for 1.3 billion dollars. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dominion-voting-systems-mypillow-mike-lindell-election-b1805607.html

 

He may get lucky as i understand that you need to prove malice in US defamation cases and he's so batshit insane he probably genuinely believes the crap he spread about Dominion.

[TheHowieLama]

I think he is in the same boat a sRudy. It is going to be hard for Rudy, under oath, to deny he knew was lying when he was crying fraud for 18 hours a day in the media but then when he actually stepped into court for a few hours he specifically stated it had nothing to do with fraud.

There is also no question Dominion can prove financial damages to their brand.

[Anubis]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I think he is in the same boat a sRudy. It is going to be hard for Rudy, under oath, to deny he knew was lying when he was crying fraud for 18 hours a day in the media but then when he actually stepped into court for a few hours he specifically stated it had nothing to do with fraud.

There is also no question Dominion can prove financial damages to their brand.

Rudy is an easier duck to shoot, but a lot of the US legal commentators/lawyers seem to think they may struggle with Lindell.

[TheHowieLama]

13 minutes ago, Anubis said:

Rudy is an easier duck to shoot, but a lot of the US legal commentators/lawyers seem to think they may struggle with Lindell.

Probably as a private citizen in a criminal trial it would be more difficult to prove yeah.

 

All of these chumps could also see civil cases and I think they all have problems there.