Ed Miliband

[Strontium]

Where is the passion in Labour these days? Kinnock was never going to be a leader but he knew how to oppose the government

 

 

He knew how to lose elections too, and therein lies the problem for the left. People want moderate governments, they don't want politicians who wouldn't be out of place in Soviet Russia.

[Dirk]

All Milliband has to do to win the next election is not say or do anything outrageous, whilst appealing to the middle portion of the electoral spectrum. He's doing what he needs to do. Not that it's particularly exciting but say nothing and don't fuck it up is exactly the right tactic for now. Why risk being bitten chasing after dogs who are going to chew their own tails off anyway?

[piscinin]

All Milliband has to do to win the next election is not say or do anything outrageous, whilst appealing to the middle portion of the electoral spectrum. He's doing what he needs to do. Not that it's particularly exciting but say nothing and don't fuck it up is exactly the right tactic for now. Why risk being bitten chasing after dogs who are going to chew their own tails off anyway?

 

And all that will leave you is a Labour part further away from its working class roots than ever and in a position to do not a lot more than continue to perpetuate the thatcherite world-view.

 

During a period as tumultuous as this, during which some people's eyes are being opened for the first time and some others are being pushed to the limits, they should be laying the groundwork for a brave new agenda that re-centers government. Instead, as you say, they're keeping their heads down, cowering behind the parapets because they care more about power than principles.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The Labour Party are not doing nothing. They're only a few months into opposition.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

People want moderate governments

 

I'd say that's a highly questionable statement.

[VladimirIlyich]

I'd say that's a highly questionable statement.

 

It seems people do want moderate government based on the type of governments being elected but i think its simply because there are no other options.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

It seems people do want moderate government based on the type of governments being elected but i think its simply because there are no other options.

 

I don't consider many of the actions of the current or previous government to be anything close to 'moderate'. Nor do I think it's easy to judge what 'the people' want when the options are so limited and the opinions so varied.

 

I'd certainly question whether we want a middle of the road, centrally positioned government. I mean, not many want extremist right or left-wing governments, but there's a great many wanting out of this bland middle of the road.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Numero Veinticinco

[VladimirIlyich]

I don't consider many of the actions of the current or previous government to be anything close to 'moderate'. Nor do I think it's easy to judge what 'the people' want when the options are so limited and the opinions so varied.

 

I'd certainly question whether we want a middle of the road, centrally positioned government. I mean, not many want extremist right or left-wing governments, but there's a great many wanting out of this bland middle of the road.

 

 

The problem is that governments are usually formed by the views of 'middle England' which is generally southern england and parts of the midlands.

 

Look at the political map and most cities are solid blocks of Red and havent changed for years.

It seems to be lots of the bits in between that hold all the aces.

[piscinin]

The problem is that governments are usually formed by the views of 'middle England' which is generally southern england and parts of the midlands.

 

Look at the political map and most cities are solid blocks of Red and havent changed for years.

It seems to be lots of the bits in between that hold all the aces.

 

Is that really true though? That's certainly the way it is now because all politicians do is chase opinion polls but wasn't the left born out of the ponderings of academics? Who envisioned something better and then sold it to people as a choice? Those people are missing now. So there is no choice, so people will just choose the least worst way to be suffocated.

[Rafa's Peggy's]

Is that really true though? That's certainly the way it is now because all politicians do is chase opinion polls but wasn't the left born out of the ponderings of academics? Who envisioned something better and then sold it to people as a choice? Those people are missing now. So there is no choice, so people will just choose the least worst way to be suffocated.

 

That's a great post mate.

 

The lack of choice is really evident these days. I don't think that people have turned against left principles, the popularity for things like the NHS is testament to that.

 

The last election showed that the two parties who stood on anything resembling a left platform received the most votes (Labour and Lib Dems). The media would have us believe that left politics is dead, but when you genuinely ask people their views on things like welfare, health care and workers rights, the majority will be consistent with left principles.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The problem is that governments are usually formed by the views of 'middle England' which is generally southern england and parts of the midlands.

 

Look at the political map and most cities are solid blocks of Red and havent changed for years.

It seems to be lots of the bits in between that hold all the aces.

 

Whilst I dispute some of the assumptions you make in that post, I'm struggling to piece it together with what I said, or what you said before it.

[Section_31]

The problem to my mind is social engineering. We don't have a trdaitional working class anymore, we have a generic mass grouping which would probably either call itself middle class, wishes it was middle class, or believes it's middle class (I've known call centre management who fall into this bracket) and by that I mean their minds are preoccupied by shite like home ownership, debt, cars and all the rest of it.

 

The only other mass grouping of people in this country are the so called underclass, the remains of a working class that couldn't quite climb onto this ladder. They're not particularly engaged with anything because they feel - quite rightly - that they're being ignored by the mainstream parties anyway.

 

This situation was set in motion by Thatcher and perpetuated by the New Labour experiment - and was compounded by the fact that the British population has become less aware for my money of what is actually going on around them. How many people in each of our social circles actually care about or understand politics? I know high ranking teachers, surveyors, you name it that don't have a clue or care about any of it - they just spout the shite they've read in the paper about 'scroungers' and 'the debt'.

 

People need to be engaged, but they won't be until their lifestyle is directly threatened (this was the case with the students, for decades the most liberal and militant group in the country, long since become benign and stupid until someone dipped their hand in their pockets - hopefully the rest of the nation follows suit).

[cochcaer]

Fraid to say that in electing Ed, Labour have condemned us to two terms of Cameron - he'll not require Clegg next time.

[RoboRiise]

Oh yeah, Ed Miliband - I remember him.

 

Single biggest fuck-up the Labour party have made in recent times was electing him as leader - that might seem a bold claim in view of some of the things they did in government but electing this fucking drip is going to ensure that they won't get back there for a while.

 

Of course, the unions effectively elected Ed - the parliamentary party voted for his brother in greater numbers but Brains is a little too Blairite for the unions. Shame really because if he'd have got the gig he'd have been raping Cameron all over the show in the commons, the current political landscape is an absolute gift for a halfway competent opposition leader. As it is, Ed Balls is doing far more damage to the Con/Dems than Ed Miliband and that shit ain't right.

 

It shouldn't be a factor in judging him but in image-conscious Britain, his public persona isn't helped by the fact that he looks like he was drawn by Matt Groening.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Fraid to say that in electing Ed, Labour have condemned us to two terms of Cameron - he'll not require Clegg next time.

 

How exactly is that going to happen?

[cochcaer]

How exactly is that going to happen?

 

At the next election I don't think the Conservatives will require any pact and will win outright.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

At the next election I don't think the Conservatives will require any pact and will win outright.

 

Oh, right. You think the support for them is actually going to go up, despite evidence to suggest that it's dropping like a fucking stone, and it's going to happen because of Ed Miliband, who won an election against the overwhelming favourite from a position of relative obscurity.

 

Sounds reasonable.

[Stu Monty]

He knew how to lose elections too, and therein lies the problem for the left. People want moderate governments, they don't want politicians who wouldn't be out of place in Soviet Russia.

 

People want governments that give them the best outcome, moderate or not. They generally want what they're told to want by the environment that the live in.

 

Comfortable people want moderate govenments, because moderate is basically keeping things unsurprising. Funny how people that are not comfortable don't tend to want moderate governments.

 

The word moderate is very subjective too.

[VladimirIlyich]

Whilst I dispute some of the assumptions you make in that post, I'm struggling to piece it together with what I said, or what you said before it.

 

Maybe I digressed a bit but I think the point I was trying to make is that 'middle england' seems to want moderate governments while the cities are still expecting the old labour left style of politics.

[Strontium]

At the next election I don't think the Conservatives will require any pact and will win outright.

 

 

I do agree this is the most likely scenario. Labour's narrative has been nothing more than "Cuts are bad, mmkay?". They're pinning all their hopes on the economy tanking. My guess is they have no real contingency plan for when that doesn't happen.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Maybe I digressed a bit but I think the point I was trying to make is that 'middle england' seems to want moderate governments while the cities are still expecting the old labour left style of politics.

 

I'm not sure I totally agree on this one, mate. Firstly, I'm not really sure there's any discernible 'middle England' of which to speak. And, even if there is, I don't really think that people are all that moderate. Their views on immigration, tax, welfare, healthcare etc., they're all often very regressive or backward. It's not just conservatism - the standing still and holding onto tradition - that they're after, it's the going backwards and becoming more fascist.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I do agree this is the most likely scenario.

 

I'm still needing an explanation of how this is going to happen. In my opinion, it would be a miracle, an absolute miracle if David Cameron won a majority at the next election. I think it's quite unlikely that government will last the full term.

 

Labour's narrative has been nothing more than "Cuts are bad, mmkay?".

 

That's not true at all. If that's the basis of your predictions, I think you've got it sorely wrong.

 

They're pinning all their hopes on the economy tanking. My guess is they have no real contingency plan for when that doesn't happen.

 

I think the word you're looking for is 'if', not 'when'.

[dennis tooth]

It seems people do want moderate government based on the type of governments being elected but i think its simply because there are no other options.

 

Well it depends how you define 'moderate', I'd say SD is right on that but I reckon he defines moderate as largely the centre ground of mainstream politics which are in actuality right wing at best centre right neither of the Labour or the coalition are offering moderate government or centrist, they are all right wing they are just savvy and selling it as centrist via PR. The public's idea of centrist moderate is different to that of the politicians but they and the media sell it to the the public but the public aren't fools in the end and their is massive opposition when they get found out.

 

The media for example is 'supposed' to hold government to account, at times they do but largely their actual function is shown in capitalist systems for what it is, So what you get is actually that the media will collude witht eh government off the record and in being breifed to created situations such as wmd stories or NHS crisis stories to manufacture the public's consent and then BAM! Here comes the magic policy solution to offer a solution to the manipulated public, then they work it out themselves but it is often too late leading to the apathy the elites desired.

Edited March 14, 2011 by dennis tooth

[VladimirIlyich]

I'm not sure I totally agree on this one, mate. Firstly, I'm not really sure there's any discernible 'middle England' of which to speak. And, even if there is, I don't really think that people are all that moderate. Their views on immigration, tax, welfare, healthcare etc., they're all often very regressive or backward. It's not just conservatism - the standing still and holding onto tradition - that they're after, it's the going backwards and becoming more fascist.

 

 

I take your point but i'd say the Blair government was moderate from my point of view,Iraq and Afghanistan apart. Not left wing enough for me at least.

 

I suppose that i personally would define middle england as those millions of home owners whose decisions are swayed almost totally by 'how do i hold on to MY home and possessions and screw everybody else?' those people arent defined by geography but their voting habits seem to revolve completely around 'whats in it for me?'

 

This attitude began under thatcher and seems ingrained in a lot of people since.

[Section_31]

Really pissing me off now. Even sections of the media are taking the piss out of Cameron and about the amount of times he's changed his mind on policy. The Archbishop of Canterbury has made some pretty hard-hitting and eloquent comments about the coalition and Cameron, but also rightly blasted Labour's lack of alternatives.

 

But despite all the growing press, where the fuck is this blert? Nowhere, can't remember the last time he said or did anything at all. He's like a shit Dutch from the Shield, he needs to be ejected - now.