Black managers...where are they?

[theacademic]

Fantastic posts The Woolster! Thanks to everyone for their time with this.

[RED.DUB]

No I'm not. I'm saying that you are saying that, but have yet to provide some instances which was what Emlyn was asking. For the record I accept racism exists across the globe but it's also kind of easy when you don't get a job to say "It's because I'm (Black, Gay, a woman) isn't it"

 

I actually saw the above excuse in action some years back in the UK when the race relations bill was first activated.

and like i said,i have no intention of getting into it with someone because they fancy a debate,the issue is not debatable.

as for emlyn,and you wanting specific names,ive no intention of providing specifics when its easily atainable.

 

btw ive no idea how easy it is to blame race,sexuality or gender on failure to land a job because im not black,gay or a woman.

but ive no reason to not believe people have been turned down based on any of the above..

 

i think thats the crunch here with certain posters,their willing to admit racism exists but they dont quite trust black people enough to accept it may be more wide spread than they thought.

[tobycatz]

There's a few Irish managers. Isn't that the same thing?

 

Ahh but how fast could they run ?

[TommyW]

I wonder if the number of players (regardless of race) becoming managers has dropped in line with the rise in wages?

 

players now reach the end of their careers with a shitload in the bank and many who previously might have gone into coaching and management may not bother as they dont need a career post playing?

 

given there were proportionately less black players in the 70s and 80s it could point to why there would be less black managers in the job market?

 

no scientific evidence for this, just a thought

[Gym Beglin]

Is it acceptable for racist jokes to be made in here? I'm not racist, but still it would be funny.

It's one of the last taboo's on forums, being able to poke fun at racism, as opposed to poking fun at another ethnicity, as some people might mistake it for.

 

Right, why the lack of black managers.

Not been an awful lot of black players in the grand scheme of things, so it's not surprising to see much less of them as managers. Also, how many black british pro's have their been in the last 20 years? Again, even less, and it's British managers that the lower leagues tend to appoint.

 

Next, how many black british pro's have gone for their coaching badges?

I mean, you can't force them to be managers just because there's a gap in the demographics.

As for why they don't try to be coaches, I don't know, and I don't know why people care so much. I don't feel under-represented as a WASP just because most NBA players are black, it's just not an issue, it just is what it is. There's no, or very very very little, racist or discriminatory reason for things being the way they are these days, there's no revolution not being televised.

 

I just wish people would ask more relevant questions when tackling football issues, and not just ask the lazy questions about blacks or asians in the game.

[Gym Beglin]

I wonder if the number of players (regardless of race) becoming managers has dropped in line with the rise in wages?

 

players now reach the end of their careers with a shitload in the bank and many who previously might have gone into coaching and management may not bother as they dont need a career post playing?

 

 

I think coaching badges have made things different, as opposed to players 'not fancying' it.

A lot of players don't like the fact that they have to study and get taught the game by non-pro's in order to become managers. But, this is what fucked the English game in the first place, why we've gone through this recent malaise in this country, is that we've not put any effort into coaching coaches and improving the level of management.

Italy has been miles ahead of us for some time, as has most of Europe, introducing coaching badges and involving theory and study into their education as a manager or coach.

The lack of players going into coaching is something I take as an excellent sign of improvement in the level of coaching in this country, as it's weeding out those lazy, big mouthed bastards from those that are willing to learn and put something back into the game.

Basically, the stupid and/or ignorant players are being syphoned out of the system now, hence the dramatic drop in numbers.

[RED.DUB]

Is it acceptable for racist jokes to be made in here? I'm not racist, but still it would be funny.

It's one of the last taboo's on forums, being able to poke fun at racism, as opposed to poking fun at another ethnicity, as some people might mistake it for.

 

Right, why the lack of black managers.

Not been an awful lot of black players in the grand scheme of things, so it's not surprising to see much less of them as managers. Also, how many black british pro's have their been in the last 20 years? Again, even less, and it's British managers that the lower leagues tend to appoint.

 

Next, how many black british pro's have gone for their coaching badges?

I mean, you can't force them to be managers just because there's a gap in the demographics.

As for why they don't try to be coaches, I don't know, and I don't know why people care so much. I don't feel under-represented as a WASP just because most NBA players are black, it's just not an issue, it just is what it is. There's no, or very very very little, racist or discriminatory reason for things being the way they are these days, there's no revolution not being televised.

 

I just wish people would ask more relevant questions when tackling football issues, and not just ask the lazy questions about blacks or asians in the game.

total bollox,im assuming its for a response?

[Gym Beglin]

total bollox,im assuming its for a response?

 

No, why is it bollocks?

You obviously have a different opinion to me, I gathered that from your aggressive and dismissive comments, as opposed to your reasoned counter-arguement.

You DO realise there's room to manouvre between agreeing with a post, and outright abuse?

[Phoenix]

No, just no

 

have to disagree. he couldnt give a shit at City but doesnt mean he isnt a inteliggent player footballing wise.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Bit unfair that as any black posters will have spent so much time 'running quickly around' that they won't have 'developed' enough 'intelligence' to 'debate' with you.

 

I would say the Women's Institutue by his own theory must himself be black, as he runs around making plenty of posts, but shows an uncanny lack of brainpower... Pray tell WI, are you a blackun?? All brawn and no brains?? Mucho posto, no mucho cogito??

[WrongIslander]

I would say the Women's Institutue by his own theory must himself be black, as he runs around making plenty of posts, but shows an uncanny lack of brainpower... Pray tell WI, are you a blackun?? All brawn and no brains?? Mucho posto, no mucho cogito??

 

Go fuck yourself, and the same goes to anyone who has used my posts as an excuse to be racist themselves. Nothing I've said is racist and not once have I accused anyone who was black of being thick, never.

 

If you can't tell the difference between someone saying that if you are physically gifted you don't have to work as much on the mental side of the game to compensate and all black people are thick then it's you that I pity.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Go fuck yourself, and the same goes to anyone who has used my posts as an excuse to be racist themselves. Nothing I've said is racist and not once have I accused anyone who was black of being thick, never.

 

If you can't tell the difference between someone saying that if you are physically gifted you don't have to work as much on the mental side of the game to compensate and all black people are thick then it's you that I pity.

 

hahahaha yer big fucking mong, get back to bed.

[sh#t waffle]

I think what WrongIslander is trying to say is that, though not their fault, black people will never become great managers while there's malt liquor to be drunk and fried chicken to be eaten.

[silverlining]

I think what WrongIslander is trying to say is that, though not their fault, black people will never become great managers while there's malt liquor to be drunk and fried chicken to be eaten.

 

Don't be mean to Mongislander. I've been told by the management to put him on ignore, because he's a fucking cry-baby.

[silverlining]

I would say the Women's Institutue by his own theory must himself be black, as he runs around making plenty of posts, but shows an uncanny lack of brainpower... Pray tell WI, are you a blackun?? All brawn and no brains?? Mucho posto, no mucho cogito??

 

Ummm, I tried to rep this post, but I think I negged you by accident.

 

Soz, like.

[silverlining]

"There's no, or very very very little, racist or discriminatory reason for things being the way they are these days, there's no revolution not being televised"

 

So racism doesn't exist these days? Or indeed any discrimination?

 

Hurray. At last, we have heaven on Earth.

[The Woolster]

Go fuck yourself, and the same goes to anyone who has used my posts as an excuse to be racist themselves. Nothing I've said is racist and not once have I accused anyone who was black of being thick, never.

 

If you can't tell the difference between someone saying that if you are physically gifted you don't have to work as much on the mental side of the game to compensate and all black people are thick then it's you that I pity.

 

You are not being racist in the sense of hating a particular race, or that you are superior, which is what most people take as being racist. However you are using stereo types and sweeping generalisations by saying that black people are fitter/stronger/faster, ergo do not have to work on the mental side of the game, therefore they don't work on the mental side of their game, thus are not likely to make good managers. But you are making a massive presumption that just because someone relies on pace as their main asset that they don't work on the mental side of their game and therefore don't think about the tactical side of things.

 

Now you may think that this is not being racist, however if your viewpoint is shared by those that employ the managers, which I think is quite possible, then this provides a massive barrier to black people getting getting a job as a coach or manager, and so in a very subtle way a group of people are being restricted due to their race. The knock on effect is that if black players think this, then they are inlcined to not bother trying to become a coach/manager themselves, as what is the point.

 

You may still not see your view as being racist, but if you look at the definition of a racist you will see various forms

 

Racist | Define Racist at Dictionary.com

 

rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm]

 

–noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

You are basically saying that as black players are more reliant on being fast/strong/fit, that they tend not to work on the mental side of the games, and so are less likely to make a good manager, which is basically the bolded part of the definition above.

 

Now, I am not saying that you are a racist, and I don't think you are in terms of point 3 in the definition, or even the unshaded part of point 1, and I am not trying to cause an arguement, but I am trying to show how your view is of a more subtle, ingrained type of racism that, when shared by many, can limit the opportunities available to people of different races.

 

And anyway, as I said in an earlier post, I don't think the style of player necessitates being a good manager or not. Ferguson, a bruising centre forward by all acounts, Bruce, McCarthy, Alardyce were no nonsense centre backs, Hughes was a physical forward

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

"There's no, or very very very little, racist or discriminatory reason for things being the way they are these days, there's no revolution not being televised"

 

So racism doesn't exist these days? Or indeed any discrimination?

 

Hurray. At last, we have heaven on Earth.

 

well done lad, in yer typical style of dealing cackhandedly with everything, get yer headwand out yer arse, discrimination exists, and must be fought, racism is bollocks. as are the arguments about black managers in football, there are a number of reasons for a lack of black managers in football, and indeed a lack of ethnic administrators involved in the game. Unfortunately it's far too facile to just scream RACIST!!! in a Duncan Norvelle falsetto, whilst running around acting all high and mighty. the opening request is to investigate and discuss the lack of black managers, I'll look fowrd to joining in when I can afford the time to comment properly, for now it is enough to poke fun at the WI.

[VladimirIlyich]

You claim you are not racist yet spout the same cliched stereotypes that racist say to justify their racism.

 

Thats the problem with your posts.

 

If you want a balanced reason to justify there being fewer black managers the point to the black managers who havent been successful at least such as Barnes and arguably Ince at the top level and then go from there.

 

Dont spout the crap about the pace,strength and lack of intelligence? Which IS racist even if you arent.

[Redexile]

and like i said,i have no intention of getting into it with someone because they fancy a debate,the issue is not debatable.

as for emlyn,and you wanting specific names,ive no intention of providing specifics when its easily atainable.

 

btw ive no idea how easy it is to blame race,sexuality or gender on failure to land a job because im not black,gay or a woman.

but ive no reason to not believe people have been turned down based on any of the above..

 

i think thats the crunch here with certain posters,their willing to admit racism exists but they dont quite trust black people enough to accept it may be more wide spread than they thought.

 

Fair enough, I've always cosniddred the forum a place to air your views and debate them but if you don't wnat to that's up to you.

BTW not trusting black people enough WTF ???????????

[Dan]

theres a bigger debate here! why are there no traveller managers???

[WrongIslander]

You are not being racist in the sense of hating a particular race, or that you are superior, which is what most people take as being racist. However you are using stereo types and sweeping generalisations by saying that black people are fitter/stronger/faster, ergo do not have to work on the mental side of the game, therefore they don't work on the mental side of their game, thus are not likely to make good managers. But you are making a massive presumption that just because someone relies on pace as their main asset that they don't work on the mental side of their game and therefore don't think about the tactical side of things.

 

Now you may think that this is not being racist, however if your viewpoint is shared by those that employ the managers, which I think is quite possible, then this provides a massive barrier to black people getting getting a job as a coach or manager, and so in a very subtle way a group of people are being restricted due to their race. The knock on effect is that if black players think this, then they are inlcined to not bother trying to become a coach/manager themselves, as what is the point.

 

You may still not see your view as being racist, but if you look at the definition of a racist you will see various forms

 

Racist | Define Racist at Dictionary.com

 

rac·ism? ?[rey-siz-uhm]

 

–noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

You are basically saying that as black players are more reliant on being fast/strong/fit, that they tend not to work on the mental side of the games, and so are less likely to make a good manager, which is basically the bolded part of the definition above.

 

Now, I am not saying that you are a racist, and I don't think you are in terms of point 3 in the definition, or even the unshaded part of point 1, and I am not trying to cause an arguement, but I am trying to show how your view is of a more subtle, ingrained type of racism that, when shared by many, can limit the opportunities available to people of different races.

 

And anyway, as I said in an earlier post, I don't think the style of player necessitates being a good manager or not. Ferguson, a bruising centre forward by all acounts, Bruce, McCarthy, Alardyce were no nonsense centre backs, Hughes was a physical forward

 

Had I said all black people were fitter, stronger and with more stamina then you might have a point. I pointed out that in general and within the context of the game of football that black players tend to be fitter, stronger and faster. Prove that wrong and you prove me a racist. I qualifiied my remarks time and time again. I didn't at any time say ALL black players are fitter/faster/stronger and nor did I say at any time they were thick.

 

People are taking what they want to see (or what that cunt SL is showing them) and not what I've actually said.

 

Pointing out that it is scientific fact that black athletes are pre disposed to be faster than white athletes is not racist. Also in your definition it says determines, I didn't say it determined anything I said it may be a factor.

 

Where any club to interview any manager, I'd hope they would pick the best candidate for the job regardless of race, the fact I have had to say this shows what a ridiculous witchhunt it going on against me.

 

Your last point is fair enough but when I made my comments I was talking more about quality players that have gone on to be managers, of course Wenger and Mourinho show as well that your playing days don't have to have been stellar, I was looking more at the growing trend of quality players being given managerial posts at the highest level.

 

Signed

 

Mr W.I. Hilter.

[Gym Beglin]

So racism doesn't exist these days? Or indeed any discrimination?

 

Hurray. At last, we have heaven on Earth.

 

You can't jump from racism to 'any discrimination', it's not the same argument.

Not a lot of disabled managers in the league is there? Not a lot of women, gays, asian managers either, or managers under 30 years old.

I don't think racism, in the context of us talking about black managers, exists in the same way that some failed black managers would like to believe there is. It's too costly to play the racist game, if you get found out then you're fucked, it's just too risky for people to let their racism come into play when assessing or appointing staff at any level.

 

All I hear is Luther Blissett constantly whining about how he hasn't been given a chance despite having his A license. How many other white people have an A license and don't get a chance? But no, because Luther is black he expects to go to the front of the queue.

Les Ferdinand said it himself in a recent interview about his own quest to become a coach, "you don't see black faces on the courses".

[WrongIslander]

Don't be mean to Mongislander. I've been told by the management to put him on ignore, because he's a fucking cry-baby.

 

So ignoring me is private messaging me is it?

 

You know the difference betwen me and you? I'm one of those people that takes what people say and regardless of who they are give credit where it's due. You on the other hand pick out the people you want to target and then no matter what they say follow them around and give it the big I am.

 

Since I became your latest man crush you've tagged every thread I've been in. Get over it and get over me. You like to think like you're intelligent and yet you can't comprehend or won't comprehend simple English.

[The Woolster]

Had I said all black people were fitter, stronger and with more stamina then you might have a point. I pointed out that in general and within the context of the game of football that black players tend to be fitter, stronger and faster. Prove that wrong and you prove me a racist. I qualifiied my remarks time and time again. I didn't at any time say ALL black players are fitter/faster/stronger and nor did I say at any time they were thick.

 

 

I did not say that you said those things either, but you do not need to say those things for a comment to have some derogatory undertones to it. And I agree that black players tend to be fitter, stronger and faster. But that has nothing to do with ability to be a manager.

 

What you have said is that as black players (although it doesn't matter if black or white really, the same could be said about Ronaldo for instance, who is fitter and quicker than most) rely on physical attributes, such as speed, is less likely to be a good manager because they will not have worked on the tactical side. But these attributes have absolutely nothing to do with whether the player works on the mental side of things or not, or how tactically aware they are. Its like me saying, and to use one of the players you mention, that because Alonso reads the game so well and has good technique, that he is less likely to work on the physical side of his game. But there would be no basis for me to make that assumption.

 

By saying "Black players are usually physically fitter, faster and stronger in general than white players and maybe for this reason they over rely on these aspects and don't develop the mental side of their game as much, so maybe this explains why they don't go into or do well in management." you are linking a person's physical abilities with their mental fortitude and intelligence, but there is no link, and by using the generalisation of a black person's physical abilities, you have brought a person's race into it.