Summer 2011

[WhiskeyJar]

That's not evidence of anything other than United buying two British players. I'd have loved Jones. That's not evidence that players in this league will be better than even better foreign players just because they've played in this league. It's a ridiculous notion, with no evidence at all.

 

If we'd experienced Keane coming here and being amazing, and Torres being shit, and many others that follow that pattern, you'd have lots of evidence to support it. But almost all of the evidence is the exact opposite of that.

 

Surely however the fact that United went for Jones instead of foreign CB (see Luiz) for the same money, means they are also looked at the notion that he was A) a telented young English player and B) with Priemier League experience that can imrpove them. Same applies for Young and in our case, Henderson, Adam AND Downing (should we get him).

 

I've just given you a list of players, all of whom were significantly less and significantly better in this league than Downing.

 

See my previous reply to this one.

[skend04]

£20m for Downing is madness end of. We've had this bullshit excuse of spunking closewards of £50m, if he comes in, of feeding Andy Carroll, but what do you do if Carroll matches his injury hit season of last? What will these signings add then?

[James]

What's with the wankfest over this Beckham goal? Nothing special about it, defensive error, pure luck.

 

[YOUTUBE]bn71IqxE5A4[/YOUTUBE]

[WhiskeyJar]

Mascherano played 5 games for West Ham. He was already one of the finest players in the world before he joined us. Mascherano is evidence of my argument, not yours.

 

There's no evidence that shows our buying players from this league will turn out any better than buying players from abroad. In fact, the evidence quite clearly shows that we've been significantly more successful, when spending decent amounts of money, by doing the exact opposite.

 

Hence why he was courted at West Ham and stuck on the bench (limbo) before we turned him into one of the finest players around.

 

Should I provide a list pf players that we signed from abroad that did not work out for us?

 

In the end you need a balance, and i think that just because we are signing Downing instead of Mata does not mean that out team will suffer from it.

[Brownie]

Numero, what are your thoughts on Downing, I think it's important that you let us all know?

[Joe Le Taxi]

I'm with Numero on this.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Numero, what are your thoughts on Downing, I think it's important that you let us all know?

 

In case you haven't noticed, we're actually talking about the merits of buying British players over foerien players, just because they've got league experience.

 

However, maybe you want to tell us your thoughts about, say, why Pennant would be a better signing for us than Daniel Alves? ;)

 

Hence why he was courted at West Ham and stuck on the bench (limbo) before we turned him into one of the finest players around.

 

We didn't turn him into anything, he already was one of the highest rated players in his position in the world. Fergie was all over him. The reason he went to West Ham and played 5 games was because he was owned by Kia Joorbchian. We loaned him from Joorabchian's company, then he transferred from that company to us.

 

Should I provide a list pf players that we signed from abroad that did not work out for us?

 

At 20m? Yes please, I've already asked for that. At over 10m would do? It makes no difference though, I'm not arguing that foreign players always work out. Shit players are shit players.

 

I'm arguing against your notion that premiership based players don't settle any better than anybody else. If you want to provide some evidence that your notion is correct, with our club, I'd be fascinated to see it.

[WhiskeyJar]

In case you haven't noticed, we're actually talking about the merits of buying British players over foerien players, just because they've got league experience.

 

However, maybe you want to tell us your thoughts about, say, why Pennant would be a better signing for us than Daniel Alves? ;)

 

 

 

We didn't turn him into anything, he already was one of the highest rated players in his position in the world. Fergie was all over him. The reason he went to West Ham and played 5 games was because he was owned by Kia Joorbchian. We loaned him from Joorabchian's company, then he transferred from that company to us.

 

 

 

At 20m? Yes please, I've already asked for that. At over 10m would do? It makes no difference though, I'm not arguing that foreign players always work out. Shit players are shit players.

 

I'm arguing against your notion that premiership based players don't settle any better than anybody else. If you want to provide some evidence that your notion is correct, with our club, I'd be fascinated to see it.

 

Ryan Babel, Albert Reira, Dossena, Moreintes, Cisse, Diouf all expensive and arguably not reached their peak with us.

 

(some not so expensive are Song, Traore etc etc)

 

Not all at 20 million but then again Konchesky was not 20 million was he??

 

And if you think Mascherano was a fantastic player he would not have ended up at West Hame no matter who owned him.

 

Mascherano was not the player he is today when he was at West Ham.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Ryan Babel, Albert Reira, Dossena, Moreintes, Cisse all expensive and arguably not reached their peak with us.

 

(some not so expensive are Song, Traore etc etc)

 

Not all at 20 million but then again Konchesky was not 20 million was he??

 

One of those players was over 10m and in the last five years. One. And even then, he was one of the hottest properties in Europe.

 

It's hardly stunning evidence of British players doing better, is it? And no, Konchesky wasn't 20m, he was shit. Just shit. Not English shit, not foreign shit. Just shit.

 

And if you think Mascherano was a fantastic player he would have ended up at West Hame no matter who owned him.

 

Mascherano was not the player he is today when he was at West Ham.

 

Ah, fuck me. This is becoming tedious. What are you not getting about him being world class before and after the 5 game spell at West Ham? In what way is this supporting your claims of players who are used to the league being better?

[Macedonian_Red]

We are going for Premier League tested players who know how to play in this league. I would rather that than another 20 million flop.

 

[Gym Beglin]

Downing isn't likely to shit on us from a height when Chelsea come calling. Most foreigners are.

Sweeping statement?

You betcha.

True?

I believe so.

 

Hazard, Sanchez, Mata, whoever, they'll all fuck off and turn towards Barca, Real, Chelsea or United when it suits them. We don't need massive fannies on £150k per week, no thanks.

I seriously prefer Downing, a man who knows all about us, a man who wants to come to us, and more importantly, a man who Dalglish wants. I don't think you can buy those traits from the other lot.

I want a solid dressing room, a bunch of lads who get on and are honest with each other and understand what it means to this club when we drop points.

In Adam, Henderson, and hopefully Downing, I will be confident that we have that as a building block for success.

 

Alonso - fucked off

Torres - fucked off

Mascherano - fucked off

Riera - fucked off

Aquilani - couldnt be fucked

 

Gerrard - stayed

Carragher - stayed

Johnson - stayed

 

Two others worthy of note, Reina and Kuyt, though Reina could yet still go next season.

 

I'm sick of playing the 'will he, won't he' game every season with our top foreigners.

Yes, they illuminate the place but you can't build on them for the future, you can't rely on them to stick around, and I'm sick of having a team of them.

Much, much prefer a British core, but concede that there are some foreign lads who 'get us'. That's what wound me up about Turan, he was begging to come, he wanted to be part of the club, and he had the quality, there was no excuse not to get him.

 

But yes, there are British wankers as well. We could all see Pennant coming a mile off, ditto Collymore. It's why I would much prefer Downing to Young, or Wickham to Sturridge, the ego's on some of these cunts are deadly to team spirit. Same with that Phil Jones. There's 'leadership qualities' and then there's 'jumped up fat 20 year old, full of himself'.

[ngogswilly]

Every case has to be looked at in isolation though.

 

Many premier league experienced players have come to us and flopped, many foreign players have come in and done great, and vice versa.

 

20 million for Downing is a gamble any way you look at it. I think a significant chunk of our fanbase have convinced themselves hes something more than he is. Hes a good player but you'd swear by some people hes on par with Lionel Messi.

 

But theres also a chunk of our fanbase that think we can do better which is probably unlikely. Maybe Juan Mata's a realistic option but we don't know that for sure, the likes of Eden Hazard don't seem to be in a rush to come here.

 

Basically, we need a winger. Downing is a good winger. Maybe not worth 20 million but we're between a rock and a hard place. Everyone knows we need a winger and our realistic options are limited. So we just have to pay the market price, even if the market is ridiculously inflated.

 

The situation we are in now in terms of buying players is not the same as a few years ago. Things are better in some respects i.e. we have money and some things are worse i.e. no European football.

[Gym Beglin]

 

With the exception of Cole, I think you've posted pics of three massive cunts.

When people say 'buy British', it's kind of an unwritten notion that we expect the club not to buy cunts. It's on the same page as the bit about them not being handicapped, or dead, it's sort of common sense.

So wind your neck in when people say 'British players' please, we all know what is meant.

[WhiskeyJar]

One of those players was over 10m and in the last five years. One. And even then, he was one of the hottest properties in Europe.

 

It's hardly stunning evidence of British players doing better, is it? And no, Konchesky wasn't 20m, he was shit. Just shit. Not English shit, not foreign shit. Just shit.

 

 

 

Ah, fuck me. This is becoming tedious. What are you not getting about him being world class before and after the 5 game spell at West Ham? In what way is this supporting your claims of players who are used to the league being better?

 

You are getting tedious. If you say that Mascherano was world class when he was at West Ham in any decent football pub they will laugh in your face.

 

But that notion is for another day.

 

You said to give you a list and I did, the number of foreign players that we have signed over the years prior to Rafa was just rotten, most of them were shit. Then comes Rafa with his Spanish Revolution and lo and behold we are signing some of the best players around.

 

I refrained from mentioning Rafa because the last thing I wanted was to turn this into another Rafa discussion but thats the fact of it.

That was the turning point for us but yes what he also did was sign alot of players that turned out shit, including PL players too and that I am not denying.

 

But the point is that any good Premier League player will hit the ground running if he has the skill, hunger and character to adapt his talents in a new team. Mascherano did not do that at West Ham, Crouch at Southampton, Finnan at Fulham; players that have moved on to other PL clubs are were better for it.

 

The foreign players that you stated were just a handfull that signed after Rafa signed on and that is a cold hard fact. Before that our ratio was really bad.

Edited July 10, 2011 by WhiskeyJar

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

when people say 'British players' please, we all know what is meant.

 

Erm, I think I know: Is it that they're British and play football?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

You are getting tedious, to say that Mascherano was world class when he was at West Ham in any pub and they will laugh in your face.

 

I didn't say he was world class at West Ham.

 

You said to give you a list and I did

 

No, I said 20m, if not 10m. You gave me a list with one person in the last 5 years who was over 10m.

 

 

But the point is that any good Premier League player will hit the ground running if he has the skill, hunger and character to adapt his talents in a new team.

 

If they're good enough, they're good enough. It doesn't matter that they're from the Premiership. Is any of this getting through?

 

Mascherano did not do that at West Ham, Crouch at Southampton, Finnan at Fulham; players that have moved on to other PL clubs are were better for it.

 

The foreign players that you stated were just a handfull that signed after Rafa signed on and that is a cold hard fact. Before that our ratio was really bad.

 

Okay, you're moving the goal posts. That's good, it suggests you've seen the illogical nonsense and you've moved further back than half a decade. Houllier got a load of shit player. It wasn't because they were foreign, it was because they were shit.

[Gym Beglin]

Every case has to be looked at in isolation though.

.

 

This is the key, and this is why I'm glad that we're taking our time in securing players and not just buying 3 in a week, a la United.

 

I think waiting is a massive part of the process in finding out if a player is serious about us or not. Make them wait and see if they start flirting with other clubs. If they do, fine, sack it off. I think Wickham may have fell into this category.

 

If they don't, like Adam and Downing, then I suggest the lads have their heart set on playing for us and nobody else. A priceless commodity.

 

 

 

If you like, we already took a gamble on a big foreign mercenary recently.

No, not Suarez, but Carroll.

He didn't want to leave Newcastle, but Kenny was mad keen on bringing him in, it's a gamble in the same bracket as Aquilani and anyone else.

Suarez was desperate to come, he may as well have been born in Huyton.

Torres was the same, he wasn't a gamble because he wanted it so much.

But they'e foreign, ergo, I don't trust them to hang around and give 100% when things don't go their way.

The dream of playing for Liverpool and the reality of the present day is very different, it's not the fairytale we make it out to be.

But, as I say, Suarez in the short term is less of a risk than Carroll.

[WhiskeyJar]

I didn't say he was world class at West Ham.

 

 

 

No, I said 20m, if not 10m. You gave me a list with one person in the last 5 years who was over 10m.

 

 

 

If they're good enough, they're good enough. It doesn't matter that they're from the Premiership. Is any of this getting through?

 

 

 

Okay, you're moving the goal posts. That's good, it suggests you've seen the illogical nonsense and you've moved further back than half a decade. Houllier got a load of shit player. It wasn't because they were foreign, it was because they were shit.

 

Oh for fucks sakes, you are worse than Code you are.

 

They were shit cause they were not equipped to play in the PL. Is that getting through to ya??

 

Mark Gonzalez is another one.

[Il Fenomeno]

Oh for fucks sakes, you are worse than Code you are.

 

They were shit cause they were not equipped to play in the PL. Is that getting through to ya??

 

Mark Gonzalez is another one.

 

Its you that keeps shifting the goalposts.

[Gym Beglin]

Erm, I think I know: Is it that they're British and play football?

 

No, it's that they're good players, good people, British, and play football.

Nobody's suggesting that Joey Barton or Lee Bowyer is a good signing.

 

 

 

On a sidenote, Alonso is/was a cunt.

He didn't leave Rafa, he left you, he didn't want to play for YOU, me, every red fan.

 

Oh, and I missed Yossi off my last list.

Fucked off.

[Macedonian_Red]

With the exception of Cole, I think you've posted pics of three massive cunts.

When people say 'buy British', it's kind of an unwritten notion that we expect the club not to buy cunts. It's on the same page as the bit about them not being handicapped, or dead, it's sort of common sense.

So wind your neck in when people say 'British players' please, we all know what is meant.

 

[Red Phoenix]

No clue why this thread is so much about arguments instead of transfer news/speculation. Baby Jesus could cry at it, but it'd still go on. People would probably say Jesus was from heaven, and as a result foreign so his crying didn't count.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Oh for fucks sakes, you are worse than Code you are.

 

They were shit cause they were not equipped to play in the PL. Is that getting through to ya??

 

 

Mark Gonzalez is another one.

 

Mark Gonzalez was 2m quid. That's ten times less than I asked you to name. You still haven't named one British player who supports your theory. In the last half a decade, who have we spent out on that has worked out? Glen Johnson (a player I took stick for on here for supporting the signing of, BTW)... Who else?

 

Keane should have worked under your theory, shouldn't he? I bet you were all over him before he signed.

[WhiskeyJar]

Its you that keeps shifting the goalposts.

 

So by saying just plain shit means that I went back on my argument?

Some people man.

 

NV beleives in a notion I believe in a different one, thats fine. I tried to make him see my way but alas that did not happen.

 

So I will carry on making my argument with fans that actually do understand the reason why we are signing PL players than foreign.

[WhiskeyJar]

Mark Gonzalez was 2m quid. That's ten times less than I asked you to name. You still haven't named one British player who supports your theory. In the last half a decade, who have we spent out on that has worked out? Glen Johnson (a player I took stick for on here for supporting the signing of, BTW)... Who else?

 

Keane should have worked under your theory, shouldn't he? I bet you were all over him before he signed.

 

He didnt because of his character. He was an established striker but he was in decline something that Rafa missed.

 

You know what, lets have this argument at the end of next season when Carroll is our top scorer shall we....

 

BTW this policy has only been adopted by our owners in this transfer widow so my theory is that Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson will be massive hits for us. If not then I will conceive, if they are however then it prove me point.